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tl;dr is in the title.

Yes, this is another post from someone who's a little disgruntled at having what they thought was a reasonable question downvoted and closed. Please bear with me.


Imagine you are afflicted by a painful ailment. Having tried everything you can think of - even Googling for solutions - you decide to turn to your local healer.

The wind is howling as you arrive at the healer's hut, located far out in the woods (naturally). The healer is an old crone, but he's an expert in healing people. He's seen it all a thousand times over and then some. And thus you begin your consultation.

"Tell me the symptoms which cause your problem," he asks in his gravelly voice.

"Well, I've had a bit of a cough recently," you respond.

"Rubbish! A million and one illnesses have a cough as their symptoms! I need a more specific list of the symptoms which are causing your ailment, and only them."

You list of a bunch of symptoms. You have no clue if they're relevant or not, but you are experiencing them all.

"What am I meant to do with all that?" the healer interrupts. "That's nowhere near specific enough! If you think I'm going to trawl through that list of symptoms to try every combination in order to work out what is ailing you, you're barmy."

You're beginning to think that it may not just be you who's barmy.

He continues, "no, what I want is the specific symptoms which are related to your problem. No more, no less. And I'm not helping you until you provide them. What's more, if you try my patience one more time, I'm never going to even try to help you again."

"But how can I do that when I don't know what my problem is?" you protest.

"That doesn't concern me," he snaps, and he shuffles off to the other corner of the shack.

You give up and decide to go to the hospital.


Essentially, this is a bit what Stack Overflow feels like sometimes. Naturally, this post is motivated by my recent question: the cause of my problem turned out to be a fairly niche issue caused by a quirk in how OpenGL works, and it was rather difficult to track down the root cause of the problem. Any number of commenting a line out here or changing something there seemed to fix it, but I could not for the life of me work out what code would minimally reproduce it. (I have since edited the question such that it includes only this code, in the hope of having it reopened, but you can see what it looked like before in the history.)

On this site, people want questions accompanied by a minimal reproducible example. I understand this, and this is usually achievable, except sometimes, finding a minimal reproducible example is really difficult. This is especially true in graphics programming, where everything is linked with everything else through the giant OpenGL state machine, GDB becomes fairly useless, and the place where all the complicated code runs is on this isolated, opaque box.

When I come to this website with a problem, it is in the hope that you, the healers of the internet, will have seen an ailment like mine before and will be able to give me a nudge in the right direction, and, if I'm very lucky, outright cure my ailment. If I'm unlucky I'll receive no help, but this is fine - unlike some healers, you have no duty of care to me, and I cannot demand help from you. So what then does annoy me is when my question is dismissed as 'lacking debugging details' by people who couldn't care less about whether I receive help, and then closed to actually prevent anyone from helping me. (Luckily, this time round, one person was kind enough to help out in the comments and directed me to a relevant webpage which helped me solve my issue.)

I apologise; this has rambled a bit, but it boils down to: it's sometimes really difficult to form a perfect question. It then really stings when your question is downvoted for not being perfect (it's not about the rep, btw, it's about the feeling of rejection more than anything else). And then the final blow is to watch to the close votes coming in, so that you can't receive help, even when all the while you've been editing your question to try to improve it. Despite trying your hardest to ask a decent question, you're being spat on and shown the door. It feels like very few people care about helping; rather, many only care about feeling superior to imbeciles like me who ask what they see as low quality questions.

What's the solution to this ailment? I'm not sure. I'm not a healer.

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  • 2
    I'm going to guess that this is off the back of this question?
    – Thom A
    Jul 27, 2022 at 9:59
  • 11
    To stay with your metaphor, you are on the phone with a healer to tell them you feel sick but don't actually show up at their place so they can check your body. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:16
  • 29
    A healer is tasked with helping you, that's their whole point of being. The site is comprised of volunteers, and they are not obligated to to play 20 questions just to get an asker into a point where they can present their problem clearly. That is indeed a very poor analogy. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:29
  • 2
    As for the 2 extra downvotes, that is the meta-effect. When posting on meta, it will invariably draw attention from more people to your posts, and many will very likely vote on them. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:31
  • 5
    If you cannot clearly establish the cause of the problem in the question, then how would your question help future visitors? If I get a black screen, do I need to read all the guesswork for why that might happen? What if it's none of the answers, because my problem has a different root cause. Which I cannot actually establish because there is no root cause stated in your question, hence I don't know if it applies to me or not. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:33
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    @Larnu: you may be doing the OP a disservice by linking to a main site question when the OP explicitly did not do this, bringing on the meta effect without them bringing it on themself. Yes, many of us could find that question on our own, but you made it easier for others to simply click on it. Probably best to avoid such links unless the OP posts it themself. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:35
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    @HovercraftFullOfEels so we have to guess what question it's in context of, like they say that they weren't doing in the question..? The fact that we didn't have the reference makes the point they complain about look like they did it in their question here... I'm pleased then that I don't need to drop my car off at the garage tomorrow then, as they'll be able to repair said car without seeing it...
    – Thom A
    Jul 27, 2022 at 10:47
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    @Larnu: regardless on whether it is harder or easier to answer this question without the link, I again strongly feel that it is up to the OP to show the link, not us. Why help this question if it harms the OP on the main site? Again, if they want to make the link easy to find, they can do this, and they should do it, not us. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:49
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    Ahh, so i should start posting links to paste bin for my code too; it's easy to find then, @HovercraftFullOfEels . (I'm being hyperbolic here, but the point is that if you want to give an example, then give that example in the context of the question; omitting the context here is doing similar to the thing that the OP is claiming they didn't do in their original question.)
    – Thom A
    Jul 27, 2022 at 10:50
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    @Larnu: we're talking risk vs benefit to the OP, not you, and so it's a R/B decision that they should make. But we digress. I'm done. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:53
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    Making the question on Meta was the "risk", @HovercraftFullOfEels . If they didn't want the danger of the meta effect, then they shouldn't make the post. Of they do make the post, all the information should be in it; just like the OP claims that they did in the post on Stack Overflow.
    – Thom A
    Jul 27, 2022 at 11:03
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    What is extra tricky here is that this is spawned by a game development question. Stack Overflow in my experience is a really poor tool for the game development trouble shooting job. It is not "how does this OpenGL function work", I have spent a lot of time on game development forums and usually problems spanned several pages of back and forth involving dozens of people to try and root it out and decide the best course of action to resolve it. Frequently with people sharing oodles of their own code. You can see that process happening in the comments under your question. Back and forth.
    – Gimby
    Jul 27, 2022 at 11:07
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    "It is not a place for newcomers to a technology to seek help." No, it never has been either; the site expects users to be able to do their own due diligence and have some idea what what they are doing and be able to answer some questions like "What version of Software x are you using?" As for debugging, those sorts of questions are on topic, but the expectation is generally for an MRE to be provided, as debugging a problem that we (the other users) can't see or replicate tend to not be helpful/useful nor answerable.
    – Thom A
    Jul 27, 2022 at 11:16
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    What MRE? No #includes, no main(), half a shader program, no window/context creation...it's just some code snippets that won't compile as-is.
    – genpfault
    Jul 27, 2022 at 16:04
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    @QHarr: Risk vs Benefit (mentioned earlier in the same comment) Jul 30, 2022 at 10:24

2 Answers 2

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We do not ask for an MRE to be mean or weed out questions or any such thing. We ask for an MRE because without it we literally have to guess blindly.

That it is difficult to produce an MRE, or that you feel left alone when people cannot help are all things that most folks here can sympathise with. Most folks here know how it feels to be stuck and alone with their problems. Most folks are here because they want to answer questions.
But wanting to answer does not change whether a question is actually answerable.

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  • I understand. So my question was never going to be fit for StackOverflow, no matter how hard I tried to make it so?
    – user3482098
    Jul 27, 2022 at 10:38
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    @jumbot I'm not an SME on the question topic so I cannot say it for sure in that specific case. But in general, yes, there are many questions that are inherently not a good fit for SO and no amount of editing them will make them fit. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:40
  • meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/413042/… offers a pretty good discussion on the issues. Graphics APIs have lots of moving parts, and often have implicit dependencies on action at a distance, or excessive verbosity to the point that they would not fit on SO. >1000 line mvres are not uncommon in this field. Jul 27, 2022 at 10:48
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    @user1937198 thank you! This pretty much hits the nail on the head. I think this was what I was trying to say, I just accidentally made my post a little, uh, emotional.
    – user3482098
    Jul 27, 2022 at 10:54
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One thing that's not obvious to people asking questions is that you're actually in a competition. There are lots of other people asking questions with similar tags to yours. That's mostly because of the scale of Stack Overflow.

So what does that imply.

  1. People who are experts in the tags you're using will tend to answer the easiest questions. By easy I mean that they don't take too long to read or to answer or too much effort to recreate.

  2. The whole system is set up to encourage answering more questions rather than answering a single really difficult question. You're likely to get much more rep with 10 easy answers than one hard one that took you all week to research and write.

  3. We have closure reasons for not reproducible and needs debugging details to encourage the creation of questions that have enough information in them to be answerable.

You can understand why that is. If we answered questions in order and question 1 here was really obscure and took all of us a year to answer then Stack Overflow would not have taken off and been the success it has been.

So the moral here is you really need to put the effort in to write the most excellent, simple and easy to recreate question you can, otherwise somebody else's question will get answered instead of yours.