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Was my attitude bad in terms of asking a follow-up question and suggesting a for loop in the first comment, and later on the response on the person's rudeness?

All possible 5 letter strings but with vowels and consonants in a specific order

Comment thread.

Whole list of that? Simple run a for loop and make x amount of words. – Josip Juros 10 mins ago

if I knew how to do it, I wouldn't have asked – Snowalker 9 mins ago

Maybe do some research? Before asking people here to do it for you > – Josip Juros 8 mins ago

just being lame today or in general? – Snowalker 7 mins ago

If you were not able to google how to make an empty list and a double for loop (the most crude solution to this), I am sorry but this question should not be up. You are asking a dumb question and wasting peoples precious time. At least show the most basic attempt of your own. Instead of just dumping this task on the people here. And yes when it comes to people like you aka slackers, "lame" in general – Josip Juros 5 mins ago

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    "You are asking a dumb question and wasting peoples precious time" Not sure how you thought that would help.
    – takendarkk
    Jul 7, 2022 at 13:36
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    A vague appeal to ‘do some research’ certainly isn’t going to be actionable for someone who is barely a beginner. Jul 7, 2022 at 13:37
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    Image of the comments as I saw them pre deletion.
    – Thom A
    Jul 7, 2022 at 13:38
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    @JosipJuros I was in the middle of deleting the comments; you happened to refresh between me deleting your comment, and deleting the "lame today or in general" comment, which was clearly over the line
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Jul 7, 2022 at 13:38
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    For context, mods don't have to delete comments inany particular order, I started with the first NLN one (yours), then went to the bad one ("lame today [...]"), and the final NLN one (that's arguably an edge-case; second comment overall: "if I knew how to do it, I wouldn't have asked "), for no reason what so ever. That order more or less just happened
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Jul 7, 2022 at 13:40
  • @takendarkk that's the comment you focus on? The other 2 of OPs were fine in your mind? Jul 7, 2022 at 15:11
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    @ZoestandswithUkraine thanks. I always thought people should learn some problem solving skills before asking other to solve their issues. My way of expressing that is flawed Jul 7, 2022 at 15:12
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    For the record, I did not delete your last comment. It was deleted by users casting flags (primarily "no longer needed"). It hit 3 flags, and was automatically deleted
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Jul 7, 2022 at 15:23
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    If you think a question is not useful and a user hasn't put in the research, there's a button right next to the question with the tooltip "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear and not useful". Use it, then the system will know and limit such users from asking more of them. Providing minimal guidance to someone who wasn't willing to put the work in rarely helps, and then going into an argument helps even less often.
    – Erik A
    Jul 7, 2022 at 16:42
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    We all get annoyed by people who don't put any effort in. But the solution is to either a) downvote and move on or b) if you're feeling charitable, constructively help them improve the post rather than admonishing them for their lack of effort.
    – user438383
    Jul 7, 2022 at 17:18
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    If you really want to leave a comment to point out they didn't do their research you can do a quick search on SO, pick a suitable duplicate and then ask: Can this [question](link to question) help you solve the problem? if they get back with: yes then you or other close voters / dupe hammers can close vote the question. That is a better world for everyone: you don't get annoyed, our related content gets better linked; the question can be dupe voted and doesn't get answered; and the OP learns they won't get any fast-food here.
    – rene
    Jul 7, 2022 at 18:03
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    OP's second comment falls into flaggable territory, but it is so unbelievably tame compared to your rant of a final comment, where you called them a slacker who "asked a dumb question" and "wasted everyone's time" because they "didn't show the most basic attempt". You didn't even just call them personally a slacker, but grouped them in with a supposed group of "people like you". That was in no way, shape, or form acceptable in any way, and I'm at a total loss for how you came to the conclusion that your comment might be remotely passable. We respect people here, in all cases, period.
    – zcoop98
    Jul 7, 2022 at 19:53
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    'We respect people here, in all cases, period' no. There is next-to-no respect given to curators who have to put up with garbage, week-in, week out. Not that I agree with 'slackers' style insults - completely unnecessary, as it's obvious that such posters are a waste of time, effort and server space - no need to explicitly state it. Jul 8, 2022 at 1:23
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    Stack Overflow is not a schooling environment - except for exactly this. Stack Overflow teaches us to bite our tongue and shrug things off, a useful skill in real life too. You will be faced with people committing all kinds of unprofessional acts and you'll have to suck it up and not point it out.
    – Gimby
    Jul 8, 2022 at 7:34
  • @zcoop98 mega disagree Jul 8, 2022 at 13:19

3 Answers 3

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What a shame I wasn't around 5 hours ago. It seems OP has had the account for a very long time - but used to be a front-end web developer a long time ago, took a long break, and is now getting accustomed to writing code that has to implement more interesting algorithms. I would hope this is someone who is at least somewhat accustomed to rough language in technical forums, and also to researching problems in general. It's a scary world out there and it's good to be prepared.

However, getting a -10 score on a question like this, and ultimately having it closed and deleted, seems like something that should sour anyone's opinion of Stack Overflow.

The close reason is inappropriate and I can only assume that deletion happened to avoid provoking further meta effect. Given the title, the apparent understanding in this comment exchange, and the understanding shown by the answer that was posted, the question could have easily been edited for clarity.

It is, however, a very common duplicate - and a reasonably good signpost for the canonical: Get the cartesian product of a series of lists?. I especially like that the language chosen to describe the problem used the words "all possibilities", and did not use "combinations" (a common misuse of terminology; we dupe-hammer lots of those already).


Other answers covered issues related to civility or "roughness" in comments. I want to focus on some technical aspects of what was said, instead:

What exactly is the technique for the naive approach?

Whole list of that? Simpl[y] run a for loop and make x amount of words.

how to make an empty list and a double for loop (the most crude solution to this)

Of course, it would take four nested loops, so both "a for loop" and "a double for loop" seem like inappropriate descriptions. "nested for loop" is more generic, but obviously this naive approach does not scale.

What exactly should the search terms be?

If you were not able to [search]

I have found that it is appropriate to chastise people for an easily searched question, only when it is easy to do the search without the domain knowledge that comes from knowing the answer already. Even then, some assembly is required here.

Copying and pasting how to make an empty list and a double for loop doesn't get us very far. I get e.g. How can I make multiple empty lists in python? near the top, which is definitely not right.

If we know better terminology for the technique, and give some mention of what we want to do (in OP's own terms), and add the implementation language, we see much more encouraging results. I get Nested loops to find all possible combinations in Python near the top, for example. But this is only a good result for the OP by sheer luck: the question is rambling and hard to understand, and the top answer just happens to propose itertools.product in a vague way. The accepted answer shows some nested for loops, but in a way that's attempting to tailor a solution to obscure and very different requirements.

Maybe if we filter for Stack Overflow results, and also use the inaccurate terminology "combinations"? I get the previous question, and then something irrelevant about powersets, and then something that shows the technique in the question and then goes on to ask a strange and hard-to-understand debugging question that is then self-answered. There is, of course, no mention of the appropriate standard library tools. Sending OP away armed to solve the problem the simple way, is taking away a useful learning opportunity.

Modelling the problem more in OP's terms actually seems to do better. I found How can I choose one item from every list, making every possible combination? off the top, which is right on topic. (It's also a clear duplicate of the canonical - just now, I hammered it as such, and cleaned up the title a bit.)

Yes, I understand that we have fairly high expectations for research, socially. But those expectations aren't very well reflected in the site's official requirements.

Why expect the naive approach to be tried anyway?

Part of the explicit purpose of Stack Overflow, as I understand it, is to make it easier for someone in OP's position to find the canonical. Signposts help with that. Pointing them at the canonical is still easier than getting into an argument. It also helps people with vote-to-close privileges do so.

But I also want to dig in further to

You are asking a dumb question and wasting peoples precious time. At least show the most basic attempt of your own.

It is very well established that "showing an attempt" is not part of the requirements to post. It is actually bad for the site to keep trying to insist on such things: it incentivizes new askers - who have perhaps lurked a bit and seen such comments - to nebulously claim that they have "tried searching", or even "tried everything" (which is effectively noise), or decorate their way-too-unfocused "do parts B, C and D of my homework" request with a half-working solution for part A.

Let's look at the homework help policy for a moment:

  • Help us understand your baseline.
  • Make a good faith attempt to solve the problem yourself first.
  • Ask about specific problems with your existing implementation.

Notice that it does not say to show the good faith attempt. More importantly, notice the context of the previous and next items, as well as the elaboration:

Users here respond negatively if your question gives them the impression that you're asking them to do your work for you. On the other hand, questions that ask about a specific issue that you're having a problem with usually receive a much better response.

It should be clear: the reason for expecting that good faith attempt is that it helps the asker to focus and clarify the actual question and look for existing solutions.

Not to "filter out the help vampires". That happens anyway - but that's because help vampires, by definition, do not have a single, focused, clear, non-duplicate question. They have many questions, and typically haven't realized it yet. If they are forced through the process, then eventually they either give up, find all the duplicates, or (admittedly lightning in a bottle) ask a lot of good questions. Or some combination of those.

People with focused, clear questions are not contravening site policy simply because the question is "easy". Many of the best questions are "easy". They just have already been asked a long time ago, exactly because of that.

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    The question was voted to be deleted by a moderator and/or community users, the author of the question, likely had no part in it's deletion. Jul 7, 2022 at 19:19
  • Yes, that's why I said "having it... deleted". Jul 7, 2022 at 19:32
  • Its the eternal question, Should I indulge a "slacker" and solve his question or pretend to be his parent/teacher and teach him problem solving skills... Neither is good. My main issue that I am aware is my way of expressing my view, prob comes from how harsh things were for me, so I learned the hard way. Jul 8, 2022 at 6:53
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Let us go through the comments one by one.

Whole list of that? Simple run a for loop and make x amount of words.

There isn't much of an issue in terms of rudeness at this point, although this is the kind of comment that might rub people the wrong way, for one simple reason: it's a very superficial answer which was not even posted as an answer.

Remember that comments are made to provide feedback and request clarifications to the poster. Using it as "hints" towards an answer deviates from these purposes. Did you believe that the question was answerable? If so what stopped you from posting an answer? If not, was the comment really useful?

if I knew how to do it, I wouldn't have asked – Snowalker 9 mins ago

Meh. This comment was not rude, but it only shows what can happen when you post superficial answers in a comment.

Maybe do some research? Before asking people here to do it for you > – Josip Juros 8 mins ago

This is a bit of a rough comment, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was taken the wrong way. At this point I prefer not to suggest that effort is lacking. Downvoting and leaving some concrete, useful references has a much smaller chance of backlash.

just being lame today or in general? – Snowalker 7 mins ago

This comment is not constructive and pretty much unfriendly. It calls for a flag of type unfriendly/unkind.

Note that this does not include replying. As soon as the comments get bad, it is often better to disengage and let the user come back with a level head.

If you were not able to google how to make an empty list and a double for loop (the most crude solution to this), I am sorry but this question should not be up. You are asking a dumb question and wasting peoples precious time. At least show the most basic attempt of your own. Instead of just dumping this task on the people here. And yes when it comes to people like you aka slackers, "lame" in general

With this comment, you only put yourself in the wrong. Even if you excluded the blunt suggestions of the question being dumb, and crudely calling their question a waste of "people's precious time", you doubled down on calling the user a slacker. The code of conduct clearly states name calling as a no no.

Note also that even adjectives characterizing the question instead of the person may be taken the wrong way, as quoted:

Focus on the content, not the person. This includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to content (e.g. “lazy”).

This is yet another clear-cut case where (both of) you should have rather used your flags instead of your words. The thread escalated into a point where both peers were denigrating, and neither end was taking the other one seriously.

It's also worth mentioning that this topic has been brought up before in a more general manner, where it was already explained to you that no laziness of any asker excuses rudeness. It can't get simpler than this. Being rude is against the site's policy and does not contribute to the quality of the site in the long term.

Better take better care in your choice of words for the future. Or, a perfectly valid choice, choose to say no words at all! Providing feedback to a question is not mandatory! You can just downvote and move on.

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    I don't understand why "lame" on the part of asker is considered just "unfriendly/unkind", but the same "name calling" by the OP(Juros) is considered "rude".
    – TheMaster
    Jul 7, 2022 at 16:03
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    @TheMaster That is an "apples and oranges" comparison. When a comment is rude, it may be flagged for one of the reasons at a higher scale. In the former case I mentioned a specific flag option, but I would have flagged that other comment as unfriendly/unkind all the same.
    – E_net4
    Jul 7, 2022 at 16:37
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This is somewhat opionion-based, but IMO you were.

Note: I (personally) tend to agree with your sentiment that it wasn't a great question, and that they were probably better off with an intro to Python book (or tutorial). I also agree that they didn't do as much research as is often expected.

Whole list of that? Simple run a for loop and make x amount of words.

That's fine. Perhaps it could have been better as a full answer, but not wrong or rude.

if I knew how to do it, I wouldn't have asked – Snowalker 9 mins ago

Not really helpful, and IMO they could have looked it up. But basic questions aren't off-topic on Stack Overflow (they may be downvoted for not being useful or showing a lack of research, but they are still on-topic).

Maybe do some research? Before asking people here to do it for you

This could have been phrased differently to cconvey that we expect some level of research on SO, and phrased this way is unfriendly or unkind.

just being lame today or in general? – Snowalker 7 mins ago

Unfriendly or unkind (and of course, not helpful).

If you were not able to google how to make an empty list and a double for loop (the most crude solution to this), I am sorry but this question should not be up. You are asking a dumb question and wasting peoples precious time. At least show the most basic attempt of your own. Instead of just dumping this task on the people here. And yes when it comes to people like you aka slackers, "lame" in general

Rude. The downvote button is titled "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful". If you think that applies, press it. Calling the OP a slacker and lame is rude. Also incorrect: basic questions are not off-topic.


That said, you are correct that SO tends to frown on a lack of research, but you phrased it harshly. Instead, you could have posted an answer (try not to answer in the comments when possible*) explaining how to do it, maybe with a short note suggesting that a Python tutorial might be better for them. You can still answer a question and downvote it for having a lack of research. Or you could just downvote if you don't want to answer.

My most upvoted answer on SO (I'm not linking it here to avoid the Meta effect, but it is on my SO profile) is an answer explaining malloc, a fundamental C concept. Could that OP have used a book? Sure. Should they have used a book? Irrelevant to the question. Should it have been closed/deleted for being a basic question? No**. Can you write a great answer to a basic question? Totally!

Answering in the comments, and then saying "this question should not be up", and then calling the OP lazy and a slacker isn't helpful.

*Yes, I'm totally guilty of this too. But still, try not to.

**In that specific case, someone found a dupe target (after I posted my answer). But generally, basic questions aren't off-topic, but there may be a good dupe target.

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    "Yes, I'm totally guilty of this too. But still, try not to." A question that is caused by a typo should be closed, and not answered in the answer section (since the purpose of closing questions is to prevent that). I still think it is advisable in these cases to "answer" by explaining in the comments where the typo is. "But generally, basic questions aren't off-topic, but there may be a good dupe target." There was an excellent dupe target for this question and I'm sad we lost a reasonable signpost and gave someone a poor experience of the site beyond just rude comments (see my answer). Jul 7, 2022 at 19:07
  • @KarlKnechtel Yeah... I agree with that for typo questions. Forgive my ignorance, but isn't there a "vote to undelete" option or something to keep it as a signpost. But I totally agree with what you've said. You would know more about this than I would, but IIRC mods can disable voting on a question by locking it, so that might work to make it a signpost.
    – cocomac
    Jul 7, 2022 at 19:54
  • At higher levels of reputation, viewing and undeleting "deleted" questions becomes possible. I just don't think it's worth the trouble now to undelete, reopen and re-close for something that might not funnel a lot of views even if it's a "good" signpost. Jul 7, 2022 at 19:57
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    "Instead, you could have posted an answer (try not to answer in the comments when possible*) explaining how to do it, maybe with a short note suggesting that a Python tutorial might be better for them." On a second read: answers in the answer section should definitely not suggest that anyone follow a tutorial. That isn't part of answering the question at all, and is highly discussion-forum-like. Jul 9, 2022 at 22:03

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