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Background

I've noticed a pattern recently in low-quality questions. A lot of them have this basic form:

I have an assignment: [copy and paste from assignment - summary: student is tasked with taking in some data structure, doing X with it, and then doing Y with the result.]

I figured out the following code to do X:

[properly formatted code example]

But now I'm stuck. How do I do Y?

And then the question will often have X-related tags, and not Y-related tags.

Superficially, this looks reasonably high quality. Of course, it is still definitely not actually high quality. I almost wrote this up as a fake "why was my question downvoted/closed/described as low quality when I put in all this effort?" question, so as to have a reference on meta to point people at. To be explicit:

  • The question masquerades as being about X when it is actually about Y.

  • Taken as a question about Y, it is once again purely a "give me the codez" request; "I am stuck" conveys no information, and Y itself is too broad.

(Of course, the real questions are often much worse: the asker will not show signs of recognizing distinct X and Y tasks, no matter how clearly the assignment is written; often the code will be pasted without proper formatting; often the assignment text is given as a screenshot; there might be spelling/grammar/punctuation problems; often there isn't an attempt to ask a question; etc. etc. etc.)


Musing

Why does this happen? Aside from blaming the usual suspects, I'd like to consider if the site can offer better guidance. The problem I'm identifying here is that the asker fails to extract the problem being encountered from the overall task , and thus cannot ask a meaningful question about that problem.

Dear reader, have you read How to Ask lately? Yes, you, the experienced meta.SO lurker who certainly does not require any such guidance. Are you aware of the actual guidance the site offers? I think it is woefully insufficient for the purpose. It's all well and good if you know what the problem is. That, of course, has a prerequisite that you can distinguish the concept of "the problem" (i.e., what is going wrong, or what functionality is missing) from "the task" (i.e. what the overall piece of code is supposed to do). I don't think that's the easiest thing in the world, especially for beginners. I think concrete examples would help there.


Attempt to make a question/discussion out of this

Have others noticed this pattern? Any other important patterns in low-quality questions that suggest missing guidance for askers? Any other ideas for communicating about how the site works? I found If Stack Overflow is about building a Q&A library - how to communicate and uphold that? while writing and I'm not very satisfied; my sense is that people should in principle be able to improve at question-asking, and the negative feedback of downvote/close/delete doesn't actually teach question-asking. It appears that there was a project to create a 'wizard' for new questions to guide the process, but a) I don't think such a thing could really help with the specific issue I show in the background section; b) it's been almost 4 years with no sign of rollout.

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    eh, well, it's still a How do i do X question. What makes it low quality isn't it missing an attempt; rather, what makes a question low quality is not having the information necessary to provide an answer. If it is incorrectly tagged, edit it. The most effective way to instruct a user how to properly ask a question or to tag their question is to fix the one they asked.
    – Kevin B
    May 27, 2022 at 20:11
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    In what way does "effort" improve the quality of Q&A as a resource for future viewers? Can you elaborate on that? Yes, questions that don't ask a question and questions that are unclear should be closed, and we should do a better job of giving advice to prospective askers, but your title suggests something I'm uncomfortable with. May 27, 2022 at 20:15
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    It's a How do I do Y question, which is the problem - the X part has been done. The question lacks an MRE, only in the sense that you'd have to run the code to get the input to the Y part (output from the X part) instead of it being hard-coded. But in the typical case, there isn't a way to answer "how do I do Y" that isn't a code dump. My point is that if OP recognized the question as "how do I do Y", it would be possible to iterate the How to Ask advice, but that advice lacks an explanation of how to peel X away. May 27, 2022 at 20:15
  • Right, so, remove the part that isn't relevant for them. The answer needing to be a code dump doesn't invalidate teh question.
    – Kevin B
    May 27, 2022 at 20:16
  • The problem is that the part to remove is tangled in a way where I can't just edit because there are blanks that OP would have to fill in. In some cases, I might replace the entire question with effectively "how do I do Y?", using some skeleton explanation of the presumed input to the Y part, but that seems almost malicious. Maybe that's really all that's available, though. I really feel more and more like the underlying problem is the presumption that asking a question is about helping the OP in some way. May 27, 2022 at 20:19
  • "The answer needing to be a code dump doesn't invalidate teh question." I'm not quite sure I follow here. I'm trying to wave in the general direction of meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/334822 ; dumping the code for Y could land OP afoul of a policy on plagiarism, even though it's only part of the task that was set. May 27, 2022 at 20:20
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    I feel like people aren't reading this to the end. This is not about how I should approach a low quality question meeting this pattern, in isolation. That's why I made a clearly labelled "background" section at the top of the post, to give context. This is about how we, as a site, might prevent the pattern from being so common. May 27, 2022 at 20:24
  • @KarlKnechtel: Maybe if we had a quota of questions per day on the site - like 1,000 - then the pattern would be a whole lot less common. But that sounds impractical in practice and would be a bit heavy handed.
    – Makoto
    May 27, 2022 at 20:25
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    If I wanted to propose explicit changes to the How to Ask page, is there precedent for that? How specific would I have to be? Down to the level of writing copy (and suggesting where to insert it) myself, or...? May 27, 2022 at 20:48
  • How about making the FAQ more visible? Obviously, it will still be ignored, but it makes down/close/delete more justifiable. May 27, 2022 at 21:20
  • Effort is not required so please frame the issue without referring to it. Focus on content. PS Yes, it is a very common poor question pattern to ask about reaching a goal while giving buggy code when the post should either ask about being stuck with relevant working code or ask about the bug with justification for expectations referencing authoritative documentation. The site help including the MRE page should make that explicit.
    – philipxy
    May 27, 2022 at 22:29
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    "Effort is not required [in asking questions]" - no wonder the quality is so low. May 27, 2022 at 22:35
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    Be careful that you are not conflicting three different, but distinct, forms of "effort". May 27, 2022 at 23:17
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    I think I did in the title, and I think that's why the question was so poorly received. May 27, 2022 at 23:42
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    Yes, that was the point of my original comment... The phrasing of the title was something I had objections to, even though I don't really see any issues with the main content of the post. I was hoping to head that off earlier. May 27, 2022 at 23:44

1 Answer 1

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If a question is off-topic (that is, it doesn't include any details about what the problem is or it's incomplete in those details, OR more commonly it asks for recommendations or doesn't have a clear direction), then close it.

If a question "lacks effort" but is otherwise on-topic, that's more acceptable to downvote. "Lacks effort" isn't a valid close reason.

There is no demonstrable value in trying to reach out to a user to get them to improve their question once they've asked it on Stack Overflow, since now they'll be dealing with the flood of users doing all of the above all at once. So, I'd encourage you to simply act within the confines of the system.

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    Is there anywhere else we can get people to improve their questions? Like, the only concrete proposal I think I have is for How to Ask to say certain things that it currently doesn't. Is everyone else really this nihilistic about the possibility of bad-question-askers ever becoming good-question-askers? May 27, 2022 at 20:22
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    It's not nihilism, @KarlKnechtel. It's reality. If people wanted to ask better questions, we wouldn't get so much vitriol from them when we moderate their content. Those that do want to improve don't really require this kind of outreach. They actually show up around Meta of all places and ask for constructive criticism. Those that need this kind of outreach are the ones who - from past experience - won't really agree with our approach.
    – Makoto
    May 27, 2022 at 20:23
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    Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person on the entire site who wants the site to be better and also actually believes it's possible. May 27, 2022 at 20:29
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    @KarlKnechtel yehhh... that "and also..." part singles you out :) May 27, 2022 at 20:39
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    I'll offer you some silver lining then @KarlKnechtel. I too want the site to be better. Under the current culture of how Stack Overflow is viewed by leadership, I do not believe it is possible.
    – Makoto
    May 27, 2022 at 20:48
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    @KarlKnechtel to be honest, we (the community) really want the site to be better, but SO (the company/staff) is doing other things that are sometimes even against the feedback/criticism from the community.
    – Andrew T.
    May 27, 2022 at 21:50
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    I don't exactly know what "better" is at the moment. That would be my main issue. I can only act on my idea of better, but I am unsure if my idea of better aligns with what our overlords think is better. They refuse to say. People keep talking about "the community", I have seen little evidence that the so called community is still all that matters. Currently we get ~8000 questions per day and from the eyes of the community that is way too much to handle. But from other eyes, maybe 16000 questions per day is better.
    – Gimby
    May 31, 2022 at 10:08
  • @Gimby: I'm gonna stick with my definition of "better" in that we have significantly less people treating Stack Overflow as cheap labor.
    – Makoto
    May 31, 2022 at 17:51

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