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I know there is no need to vote to close after flagging a question as spam. However, I don't visit SO so much these days, so my close votes aren't in so much demand. Does SO really need to send me an e-mail saying how I shouldn't have voted to close the question?

Hello,

We're writing in reference to your Stack Overflow account:

https://stackoverflow.com/users/1213708/nigel-ren

You voted to close this question:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/72131661/

Which is clearly spam.

There's no point in casting close votes on these. Just flag as spam and the post will be quickly deleted and, when the moderators see it, the user removed.

Save your close votes for non-spam questions.

Regards,
Stack Overflow Moderation Team

So either the process doesn't care that I had already flagged this question or it just doesn't take this into account.

So, for me it's a case of I didn't need to vote to close this question, but I also didn't think that it warranted an e-mail to point this out.

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  • 45
    ,,,erm, apparently you did need the reminder to not CV. Since you did cast a CV. What's the problem with that?
    – VLAZ
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 20:38
  • 10
    @VLAZ, my point is not about the close vote, but more that I had already flagged as SPAM.
    – Nigel Ren
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 20:40
  • 27
    Right and you also sent a close vote which was not needed. The point of the email is that it was not needed.
    – VLAZ
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 20:41
  • 7
    @VLAZ, which is why I started my question with Although I know there is no need to vote to close, BUT I would have thought an e-mail would be more useful IF someone hadn't flagged it as SPAM.
    – Nigel Ren
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 20:44
  • 8
    not quite sure an email is needed for that scenario, tbh, unless the point is close votes in these cases is harmful, but i don't see a reason for that to be the case. More importantly the mod message doesn't seem to indicate that either.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 20:44
  • 13
    If you flag with a custom reason, it can often serve as signal for others to CV instead of flagging. I've seen it multiple times. There is exactly zero reasons to cast a CV. At best it's a totally irrelevant action. At worse, it delays handling of spam. Thus on average, it's on the negative side. And let's recap - you apparently did need a reminder not to cast close votes. You're complaining that you didn't need such reminder yet without any actual evidence for that. Thus I don't really see the problem. Just take note and that's it - what is there to discuss?
    – VLAZ
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 20:48
  • 37
    You claim an email is "not needed/warranted", but where is the evidence that it is harmful? What is your concern here? Are you worried about moderators wasting their time sending messages that aren't necessary? If you're concerned about wasting time, or things which are not needed/warranted, why are you casting close votes on spam, which pretty much fits the bill?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 21:14
  • 30
    @nbk Normally your comments are at least possible to read, albeit with difficulty, but I have no idea what msild is meant to mean Commented May 5, 2022 at 21:41
  • 12
    The close-vote did, at least, come after the flag, @BSMP, which is the most defensible ordering. At that point, the only "harm" which is being done is the flagger wasting their own vote (of which users only get a limited number per day, but most users don't consume all of them anyway). However, mods generally aren't going to take the time to check the timeline for this kind of detail, especially not in the middle of a spam wave. This spam wave has revealed a lot of users who apparently don't know that they should flag spam, and we're taking the opportunity to educate them.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 4:18
  • 17
    It wasn't anywhere near "a few hours later", @chivracq. I surely hope that our handling time on spam flags is closer to a few minutes, not hours. Part of the reason we're sending this message to users, though, is we're discovering that a non-trivial number of users are voting to close spam questions instead of flagging them, and that does cripple our ability to effectively and promptly remove the spam. Spam flags immediately go to mods, even if there's only one, so we're generally pretty quick about handling them. It is not actually necessary that 6 different users raise one.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 4:19
  • 8
    @CodyGray, I don't think the email was harmful, but it wasn't helpful either. If the email would have contained information as to why you shouldn't close vote (links to meta questions about spam and close votes) then at least you can say that it was educating people, at the moment it just says to save close votes for other questions (which you point out yourself, aren't always used).
    – Nigel Ren
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 5:33
  • 4
    this looks related: Educating people to flag spam and not vote to close
    – gnat
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 11:20
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    Wow, what a waste of moderator effort.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 13:25
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    @John This assumes that a moderator has some way of knowing whether the email was needed/warranted. Since mind-reading isn't among our powers, we actually have no way of knowing whether Nigel knew that he needed to flag spam instead of voting to close it. So, we have a reasonable choice between: (A) assuming he knew this and not notifying him, risking that he doesn't actually know and may not do the right thing in the future, or (B) realizing that he might not know and informing him, risking him that we might be telling him something he already knows. Well, it's hardly a difficult choice.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 19:36
  • 10
    Frankly, it's pretty ridiculous to call this "spamming". If you are taking actions on this site, and you are provided with feedback (once!) from moderators in response to actions that you've specifically taken on the site, then that's not spamming under any stretch of the imagination. If the original email is "spamming", pray tell what is this Meta question classified as? If your complaint is actually that mod messages go to a user's email, rather than being limited to showing on the site, well, that's a different argument, and one I tend to agree with, but this is not our decision to make.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 19:38

4 Answers 4

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I was the moderator who sent the message and I didn't spot that you had already flagged it as spam. Apologies for that.

However, as others have pointed out, the close vote is unnecessary. By flagging it as spam you've already brought it to the top of the flag queue where it can be handled quickly. There's no need to do anything else - except perhaps leave a comment if it's subtle spam that might not be immediately obvious to other users, or even to us moderators.

We appear to be in the middle of a bit of a tidal wave of spam at the moment and yours is not the first case of someone voting to close instead of (or as well as!) flagging as spam and we've sent similar messages to those users as well.

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    If we see a comment saying I've voted to close because this is spam do you want any non-moderator to do anything at all? Commented May 6, 2022 at 12:59
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    You can do what I do, @Robert: raise your arm in the air, make a fist, shake it, and scream something approximating "aarrrrgghhh!". But, at this time, I don't think it is worth doing any more than that. We don't really want to be over-burdened with flags pointing out users who are voting to close spam. That would be a waste of moderator time, as people have claimed this is/was. (This really isn't. When we're dealing with this spam anyway, and we notice someone close-voted it, we can click a couple of buttons to send a canned message. It's not a big deal.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 13:30
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    One of the reasons I love SO is the transparency/accountability of moderators. When questions arise there's almost always clarity into what happened, apologies for any mistakes, and useful information for the community. Thank you for this response. Commented May 7, 2022 at 5:32
  • 3
    Thanks for your post, can I just suggest that links to the meta questions about this are included in any future emails. This adds a lot more information which can help people understand the logic behind not needing to close vote.
    – Nigel Ren
    Commented May 7, 2022 at 10:07
  • If this had been repeated behaviour, which was done in good faith, it might warrant a gentle reminder. But the email has quite an accusatory and exasperated tone to it. The user did flag the post as spam, so maybe the moderator should double check their facts before sending a cold boilerplate (?) email.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented May 9, 2022 at 11:47
36

From my perspective, there is not an issue per se with voting to close spam as long as you are also flagging it. It is, of course, not necessary and effectively just consumes one of your close votes for the day. The key thing is that spam must be flagged as spam for it to be handled appropriately.

Part of potential harm that I can see is that by voting to close, especially with custom reasons like "I am voting to close this as spam" is that it can signal that closure is the appropriate way to handle the situation (by way of a comment) to users who may not know they they are supposed to flag it. This may encourage other users to vote to close instead of flagging as normal users can only see the closure message and not any pending flags.

Comments along the lines of "This is spam, please flag it." may be more helpful in getting the post handled appropriately.

There are many users who view spam without flagging it, users who choose to use a custom mod flag, and even users who use custom close reasons, like "I'm voting to close this question because it is garbage" (screenshot). Sending it to close queue or the custom mod flag queue only increases the amount of users who interact with the post and increases the amount of time it takes to handle the post.

Red-flags have priority in the system and ensure that they are handled as quickly as possible. Additionally, 6 red-flags (from non-mods) are needed for the system to remove it as spam; voting to close does not make progress towards this goal.

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    Eh, if this is the scenario (i.e, custom reason), then I'd rather use a comment to respond to it. Using a mod message is an overkill, as it is a black mark on the user account. Mods responding to comments on a post that is deleted still end up in the notification inbox for the user, so it would have served the same purpose, if it were to educate the user. Commented May 5, 2022 at 20:58
  • 3
    Thanks @BhargavRao. As a non-mod, I have limited information about the process for mod messages and the way it affects user accounts. I also lack the necessary information from the system to determine whether or not this was a frequent occurrence, they type of closure reason used, or how the posts were subsequently handled. I was simply noting something that I do see rather frequently wrt closures on spam posts.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 21:01
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    Another reason not to close-vote spam is because it can lead to delete-voting spam, which doesn't incur the penalty that red-flag deletion does.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 5, 2022 at 22:59
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    Yeah, this is the scenario, @Bhargav. I started doing it en masse when I saw a non-trivial number of users VTC instead of flagging as spam. I don't see a mod message as leaving a black mark in this case; there's no suspension attached. The advantage of a mod message over a comment is that the user has a chance to reply back with any questions. I've had several productive exchanges with users as a result, which I don't think I would have gotten with a comment on a deleted post. This is the first case I've seen where we've messaged someone who flagged as spam then VTC, which is perhaps…
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 4:22
  • 11
    …unnecessary, probably was an oversight on the mod's part, and a bit of a waste of our time, but I confess that I really don't see any harm in having sent the message. If the user already knew this, they could have simply ignored the message. We are seeing this as an educational opportunity, not as punishment.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 4:22
  • 3
    Why is a mod message a 'black mark' on a user account?
    – S. Dre
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 12:06
  • 5
    No idea, @S.Dre. It's actually an orange mark. :-) I assume Bhargav means because the entire history of moderator messages sent to a user is retained in that user's profile, for any future mod who wants to go and look at them. So, it's kind of like back in school when you misbehaved and the teacher/principal said, "This is going on your permanent record." The thing is, if a mod is going to go back and look at that record, they're going to actually look at it, so they'll be able to tell at a glance what is trivial/guidance and what is serious/abuse. So, it's there, but it's not a problem.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 12:19
  • @CodyGray okey! That makes sense. I mean, it can be used to see the history of someone with those things, but it wouldn't make sense to automatically put it as something inherently bad, since it could have just been a mistake that was corrected the first time.
    – S. Dre
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 13:25
  • "Part of potential harm", quoting Cody's comment: "This spam wave has revealed a lot of users who apparently don't know that they should flag spam" so it's not potential, there is already a harm done.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 17:16
  • 2
    Well I didn't know I'd be made the poster-child here, my only defense is that I didn't immediately recognize it as spam, it looked like a misplaced call for help (I see comments with phone numbers all over the place). Once I realized what it was, it had already been deleted.
    – Aaron Bertrand Staff
    Commented May 6, 2022 at 21:35
  • Sorry about that @Aaron...maybe I shouldn't have posted a screenshot...
    – user17242583
    Commented May 7, 2022 at 19:50
7

Just to inform you all: there's another thing which can happen in similar cases. I just voted to close this question because it initially looked like this:

On August 6, 2022, Google will no longer support some video and image sitemap extension tags. Gary Illyes from Google said it is removing support for those sitemap extension tags to simplify sitemap extensions and to help “reduce complexity of your codebases” by making sitemaps “less cluttered in general.

Any idea what that is supposed to mean as a Stack Overflow question? I don't, hence my close vote. However, within the grace period it was edited to actual spam. Because I still had the tab open, I flagged it accordingly. But there's no way in the Stack Overflow system alone, not even for ♦ moderators, to see what actually happened there.

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    This is... interesting and worrying at the same time. Those spammers are getting smarter >:( Commented May 7, 2022 at 19:47
  • We are aware, but appreciate the heads-up. Generally, the close voters who've been getting this message (at least the ones I've sent) chose a custom reason along the lines of "because it's spam."
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 7, 2022 at 19:57
  • 1
    The ability to make edits that do not create a revision history has now been added to new user restrictions. This should help make the chain events more clear as fresh (1 rep) accounts will no longer have the ability to make invisible edits.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented May 14, 2022 at 2:13
2

Think about it this way: would you flag an off-topic question as spam? If not, why not?

In one sense, voting to close spam is just as "wrong" as flagging something that's off-topic as spam. Yes, I do understand that spam flags result in a 100-rep penalty, so the analogy isn't perfect, but the point remains the same: you shouldn't vote to close because it's the wrong action.

Voting to close wastes your close vote and potentially wastes other users' time if they encounter it in the close vote queue and/or take the wrong action on it as a result of the comment.

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