-29

Said phrase is used in an answer to a question that - ironically - is about verbal abuse.

When I flagged the answer first, the flag was deemed helpful, and I got this response:

I had already spoken to the offender. I marked this flag as helpful, but.. you could have just flagged the comment and edited out the sentence, and let it all simmer down.

The comment being referenced refers to an abusive comment that was removed by the moderators, but the offending sentence in the answer was not.

I responded with:

The offensive sentence is still in the answer ("petty, childish"). If I were to edit it out, it would be the opposite of letting things simmer down - it would lead to escalation. Hence, I ask again that you do that.

This time, the flag was declined - and the offending sentence remains in the answer; the response was:

The user is entitled to express their opinion your behavior is "petty, childish and a waste of everyone's time". You're welcome to disagree with that and express it by downvoting. No mod action needed

I find this baffling, because to me the sentence is clearly rude and abusive.

Also, it sounds like there's disagreement among the seemingly two different moderators that handled the flag, given that the first response seems to imply agreement that the sentence is rude - though I do find it strange that it was suggested for me to edit out the sentence.

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  • 2
    @MisterMiyagi: It's about how. Obviously, expressing the idea that "this isn't worth discussing" is and of itself not problematic.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:10
  • 3
    Saying "Your behavior is petty and childish" is no different from saying "You are petty and childish". I think that trying to demarcate a difference between one and the other, and saying one is a personal attack and the other not, is simply wrong. Or maybe it's simply pettiness and childishness. I don't know.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:13
  • 7
    @yivi The actual quote is "This pedantic over-analysis of how a mod worded what they wrote is petty, childish and a waste of everyone's time." Nowhere does it say that the usual behaviour or even the person is petty and childish. Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:19
  • 4
    @MisterMiyagi Is that supposed to be less rude? I find it even worse. I may be getting oversensitive with age.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:19
  • 7
    @yivi It's supposed to clear up the facts, since they seem to be conveniently swept under the rug. "This behaviour", "Your behaviour" and "You" certainly aren't the same thing in my book. Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:21
  • 1
    @mklement0 Which is already a stretch. They didn't call out your general behaviour out of the blue. They did call out the behaviour being explicitly discussed. Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:24
  • 3
    Sorry, @MisterMiyagi. Why do you think I "conveniently" did anything? You mean I intentionally worded things in a way that intended to support my argument while actually misconstruing facts? I apologize, that was not my intention. I was just trying to be brief, and I think that the point stands. I still believe the original quote is rude. Using "this behavior" as a smokescreen for "you" does not do anything for me. But I don't think we are going to agree, and that the whole thing is rather pointless. Either one feels the quote is rude, or doesn't. Moving on. Bye.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:25
  • 2
    @MisterMiyagi, as for yivi's concern: their opinion is that there's no substantive difference between "your behavior is X" and "you are X", so it doesn't matter how they read the question (which only talks about behavior). By contrast, it is Cody's answer that explicitly makes this distinction, which is why I thought yivi's comment should have been posted there.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:44
  • 4
    What exactly is the goal here?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 17:46
  • 2
    The respectful criticism clearly wasn't heard, though. It was ignored, and disregarded / discredited as a "distraction" from what you wanted to discuss. At that point you honestly can't be surprised people start using stronger language.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 29, 2022 at 20:28
  • 2
    And likewise you could refrain from repeating the same old story over and over again of how you think my answer was a "distraction". This is exactly what I mean. The criticism is dismissed because you consider it irrelevant, but that criticism is at the very core of the whole issue.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2022 at 0:13
  • 3
    And nothing entitles you to shut down other user's answers, just because you disagree with their content or relevance. I'm not looking for validation. I'm looking for you to accept that SO just doesn't hold to the same standards as you do, yourself. That much is abundantly clear from the votes on both questions.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2022 at 0:16
  • 3
    You dismiss my answer as "distracting", post your own with your own interpretation that's literally opposite to what's accepted, and finally accept your own answer... You can't literally shut my answer down, but you're making it abundantly clear you think my answer shouldn't even be there. Note that I had exited this whole debacle. Then you wrote that little gem of an answer. You can't expect anyone not to respond when you're literally writing about them.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2022 at 0:21
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    Please take a note from your own writing: "As a result, the tone of my asides was imperious and perhaps condescending: I should not have done that, and I can understand how that can trigger readers. I will be more mindful of how I phrase things in the future." You are being condescending right now. "It's your choice to get offended" "that has nothing to do with me"... Don't you see the hypocrisy here? I should "choose" not to be offended, but your offense can not be questioned? Come on!
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2022 at 0:30
  • 6
    Dude, I’ve been at “come on!” since my “get the hell over it already” comment, already...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2022 at 0:34

2 Answers 2

26

This is in the context of the rude stuff you said about moderators in that other Meta question you posted, right? The irony is strong with this one.

Anyway… having or stating an opinion about someone's behavior is not "rude or abusive" on this site, especially when they were invited to share their opinion. You came to Meta because you wanted to hear other users' opinions. In other words, you opened up an issue for public discussion. Now, you don't like/agree with the opinions about the topic that were expressed by a particular user, so you're trying to flag them for moderator removal. Please stop.

The Code of Conduct is not to be used as a blunt instrument to prevent people from expressing opinions on Meta sites. As with another recent complaint where a user described a post as "pedantic", this is (uh-oh, here we go again) silly. In fact, it's ridiculous.

If you did not want to hear people disagree with your opinions/tactics, then you probably shouldn't have given them a forum to do so.

A user's behavior can, according to another user's opinion, be "petty, childish, and a waste of everyone's time", and they can express this without violating any rules. Note that this is different from calling a person "petty [and] childish". As people, we all behave, from time to time, in ways that can be aptly described as "petty and childish". Calling out a behavior is not tantamount to slurring or attacking a person.

Had they said "that guy mklement0 is a petty child who keeps wasting our time", then that'd be a different story. I surely would have removed that, if not sent the author a warning about rudeness. Even on a Meta site, even in the context where discussion about a particular circumstance were invited.

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    Cody, please clarify if you're expressing a personal opinion here, or whether you're speaking as a moderator.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:48
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    It can't be both, @mklement0 ?
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:51
  • Sure it can, @Larnu, but I'm trying to determine whether this answer is representative of what the moderator team as a whole think.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 7:54
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    This answer was not written by a committee. Moderators are still individuals, even after being elected moderator. I am unable to draw the distinction that you are asking me to draw, and I'm not sure I would want to do so even if I could.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 8:51
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    Understood, Cody, so is it fair to say that you're speaking as a moderator here, and that what you expressed here guides your actions as a moderator?
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 9:23
  • 11
    I am explaining why I took the action that I did (declining your flag), and why I would continue to take similar actions again in the future. Considering I did/do those things as a moderator, I guess the answer to your question would be "yes"? Whether that represents the opinions of the entire moderator team, I cannot say, although I certainly have no reason to believe that I am an outlier here or have opinions that run counter to the rest of the team. Perhaps more importantly, I've seen many other mods and staff make similar decisions when it comes to discussions on Meta sites.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 9:46
  • 1
    As for other mods: As stated in the OP, at least one moderator seems to implicitly agree that the statement was offensive; as quoted in the question: "you could have just flagged the comment and edited out the sentence". Just to spell it out: if there were nothing wrong with the sentence, there'd be no reason to edit it out.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 12:50
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    I just noticed something, Cody, re "when it comes to discussions on Meta sites" - and I'm asking innocently: Does a different CoC / do different standards apply with respect to what is "rude or abusive" on Meta sites?
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 20:38
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    Somewhat, @mklement0. Not an entirely different CoC or anything like that, but the standards are different simply because, on Meta sites, discussions about users and user behavior is on-topic, whereas it wouldn't be anywhere else. So, a comment on the main site criticizing a user's behavior would be nearly instantly deleted as unfriendly, if not simply unnecessary, whereas that would be allowed on Meta. That's the distinction I was trying to make.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 21:08
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    I appreciate the clarification, Cody. And to add a clarification on my end (a tl;dr of my answer): I'm certainly not objecting to discussing a user's behavior, I'm objecting to discussing it in the form of insults.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 21:19
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    Under your view of what is rude and/or an insult, @mklement0, how can I tell you (or anyone, so as not to make this personal) exactly why I think a particular behavior is wrong? Wouldn't any attempt at criticizing a behavior become an insult? This is what I am struggling with. Naturally, I understand why you would be a bit miffed to read that someone thinks you are acting in a childish way; anyone would. But you'd be equally as miffed to read any criticism of your behavior! That, too, is simply human nature, just as is making mistakes.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2022 at 7:55
  • Cody, the why doesn't have to be an insult, and if it is, it is much more likely to generate ill will only; by contrast, respectful criticism has a much better chance of getting heard. For instance, your feedback to me on the earlier post helped me see my part in the escalation. Not fun to realize when one has erred, but ultimately I appreciated that that blind spot was pointed out to me. If there even is a message in a given insult, it can be delivered without the offensive packaging. With your abstract interpretation of opinion and criticism, the category "rude or abusive" vanishes.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 29, 2022 at 13:49
  • Also, Cody, just to ensure that no context is lost, I'd like to recap the evolution of your answer, (as partly reflected in the edit history): You original hypothetical insult was (redacted to replace the original, explicit language): "that guy mklement0 is a petty, childish a-hole who keeps wasting our time" In since-deleted comments, a user pointed out that this language wasn't necessary to illustrate your point; you responded that you needed a noun for you sentence; I suggested "hypocrite". You then changed the hypothetical insult to "... is a petty child ...".
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 30, 2022 at 2:28
  • Cody, it is implied by my answer, but let me spell it out: The previous post you allude to - both before and after I revised the language to lessen the extent to which my original exasperation showed - contained no ad hominem allegations, only complaints about such allegations by an - unknown to me - moderator (you may disagree with this characterization, but that's an entirely separate matter). Yet you characterize that post as "rude" in your answer, even though that category - by our own definition - doesn't apply. Please clarify.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 1, 2022 at 1:42
  • 3
    You're wrong, an indirect personal attack is still a personal attack calling it an opinion doesn't change that, neither do opinions warrant personal attacks whether direct or indirect. Because there is a very strong correlation: it's always the same users mixing direct and indirect personal attacks who get away with it. Thus a CoC violation (but if it takes 600 mods to not realize that)...
    – bad_coder
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 10:11
-20

I want to address several aspects I perceive to be problematic in Cody Gray's answer, and doing so wouldn't fit into comments:

This is in the context of the rude stuff you said about moderators in that other Meta question you posted, right? The irony is strong with this one.

It is ironic, but not for the reasons you think: the post in whose context the offending statement was made was a complaint about rudeness (by a moderator, which heightens the irony).

If you think there is something rude about the complaint itself, you should take action - just like I tried to with the offending statement.

The bigger picture, here, however, is:

One act of rudeness doesn't justify another, no matter how much you sympathize with the stance that the rudeness is in support of.

We need no further context to discuss the offending statement: it is offensive in and of itself (in my estimation, needless to say).

It is also baffling that you link to a post about the word "pedantic". While certainly not friendly and debatable in terms of its offensiveness, it isn't the issue, which is why I didn't include it in what I quoted in my question. But, for the record, here's the full sentence:

This pedantic over-analysis of how a mod worded what they wrote is petty, childish and a waste of everyone's time.

It certainly isn't expressing an opinion that is problematic, it is expressing an insulting opinion.

Every insult is an opinion, but that doesn't justify it.

Distilling your logic to its essence, I hear:

A statement that talks about behavior rather than a person cannot be insulting.

Let's start with the following opinion:

Get the eff over it already. Geez.

In essence, this opinion (or behavioral recommendation) expresses the same sentiment as the offending statement. In non-offensive terms (which could have been used, and would have been perfectly acceptable): "You are making too much of this. It is not productive to talk about this."

Yet, at least one moderator agreed that this was offensive and removed this comment, which was made on the same answer that contains the offending statement.

While not as vulgar, the offending statement is similarly dismissive and insulting - even if it isn't directly ad hominem.

This fallacy - an opinion can't be offensive if it doesn't directly address a person - in effect gives users permission to insult freely, as long as they say, "you did something that a $!@# would do" instead of "you are a $!@#"

I think that your stance therefore does a disservice to the community, which is especially problematic because you're a moderator.

And I hope it is clear that in this case I truly am addressing your behavior, based on arguments, not insults.

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    No offense but I struggle to see what you're trying to accomplish here. Looking at the scores of your posts should already tell you that meta is of the opinion that your indignation is unwarranted. Further arguing that the behaviour was indeed rude feels pretty pointless because besides yourself nobody really cares. Seems to me like you've found yourself in a hole and decided that the best course of action is to start digging...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 13:01
  • 3
    Nope, I don't think that's important. You're complaining about language that would be acceptable in a middle school (if not earlier). We're all adults here and adults have disagreements, and requiring those to be expressed in a 100% politically correct way that's as inoffensive as humanly possible would be way worse for open and honest discussion. As long as there are actual arguments, and the discussion doesn't devolve into pure name calling, I think it's fair game. Then again, I would love if we had a "GTFO and RTFM" close reason on main, so my opinion might not be representative.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 13:16
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    @l4mpi, if we're all adults here, then we shouldn't talk like middle schoolers. When we occasionally slip up and do, we should own up to it.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 13:19
  • 3
    I'm an adult and thus I talk however the hell I want, thanks. Of course I "own up" by accepting consequences for my speech... which as you've seen are nonexistent for calling someone's behaviour "childish" on meta. Not sure why you think that adults shouldn't use these words - the middle school comment was intended to demonstrate that the words used were already "kid-friendly". If you want to ban that kind of language, then what's left? I'd have to consult a laywer and ethics comittee before writing my opinions about some of the more ridiculous things SO (the company) decides to do.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 13:33
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    My impression is not that this is raising awareness of rudeness, but spreading rudeness. The meta from which this thing spawned is heavy with one-sided accusations and allegation. Now this meta picks up on one sentence from a page-long reply that may be seen as rude, mixes it with filtered mod reactions, and spins it up again in a similar manner... Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 14:35
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    1- Please be aware of the context of the offending sentence. (Which I am uniquely qualified to provide, being the author of said words): That other meta question already came to a conclusion, namely, "everyone sucked here". mklement admitted he had a hand in the escalation, and as far as I could tell, it was over. Then, some ~2 days later, the discussion get restarted with a answer calling out my answer as a "distraction", and a whole lot of "meta sucks"-kind of rambling. That is the point at which I expanded my existing answer, including the quoted line.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 14:59
  • 4
    2- I felt it was necessary to defend my answer, because of the poor attitude displayed in both the OP's question and answer. TL;DR: If people can't kiss and make up after a fight, I'm inclined to call it out.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 14:59
  • 7
    See, it's this kind of one-sided interpretation that irks me. You reserve the right to interpret your own words with leniency, yet harshly interpret those of others. You reserve the right to decide which words are worth discussing and which are merely distraction. Please take a step back to consider how this appears if one does not start at agreeing with your interpretation already: Things are being heavily re-framed here to enforce a selective narrative that only supports your opinion. If you really "realize [you] must show accountability [yourself]", please start doing so. Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 15:43
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    "Your characterization of my actions is abrasive." Soooo, how is it okay to say that, but "This <...> is petty, childish and a waste of everyone's time." isn't okay? Again, you're applying a double standard here.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 17:58
  • 3
    @mklement0 I read the cherry picked quotes as well as their actual context, guess why I am not willing to take out-of-context claims at face value... Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 18:06
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    @mklement0 You are again jumping ahead – that these things are personal attacks and context would merely be sought to rate, possibly reject, their severity. That the only open question is how to condemn them. There is nothing "of course" about presenting your perspective, one that frankly seems frighteningly toxic and hostile, when it comes alongside the claim that the "of course" for others' perspective – i.e. context – is not worth any consideration. Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 18:56
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    @mklement0 You just did it again... reframe it as being a personal attack, and me just putting a label on that... Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 19:09
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    If you would only argue that, I wouldn't have a problem. That many of your statements are framed as if what you argue is already established as fact, that is something I absolutely do not agree with. Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 19:18
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    @mklement0 I mean your answer and comments which continue to casually claim the moderator was indeed verbally abusive. I mean quibs that there is irony in the flagged phrase being in a context about verbal abuse, which only makes sense if it is abuse itself. I mean this answer framing the initial Q&A as a "complaint about rudeness", but a reply to it as a reaction to "(perceived) rudeness". I mean comments that already take for granted that "rudeness is being tolerated on this site". I mean comments that "the larger point still stands".. Commented Apr 28, 2022 at 19:49
  • 3
    I mean, that's clearly not the case, given a large portion of our policies here revolve around not wasting the time of the limited people who actually perform review tasks, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 29, 2022 at 18:13

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