8

According to the help center post on deleted questions it states:

Questions that are extremely off topic, or of very low quality, may be removed at the discretion of the community and moderators.

Over time, closed questions that are not useful as signpoints to other questions may also be removed, as well as questions which have no significant activity over a very long period after being asked.

Although I try to avoid referring to a specific question, this question recently got deleted, and I'm not sure why. I've never cast an undelete vote before, so I'm trying to understand more about the deletion so I can make a good decision here about if an undelete vote is warranted or not.


Here is my assessment of the situation on that question:

off topic

Clearly, this question is on topic. It was marked as a duplicate of a question that has 708k views. The question is programming-related, and is a specific question (not too broad). I believe it's hard to make any argument that this question is off-topic.

very low quality

I've seen much higher-quality questions on Stack Overflow. The original question doesn't show a lot of research effort, and doesn't really go into any depth about what the user has tried so far. However, the user does give a very specific example of what they are trying to do. It's maybe plausible to say this is a low-quality question, but it's hard to consider it "very low quality" in my opinion.

not useful as signpoints to other questions

I'm not sure what "signpoints" means (It's not even a word according to Merriam-Webster). However, just based on context, I'm assuming it means a result that is closed as a duplicate of another question and for SEO purposes and such helps point users towards another post that answers the same question.

Under that definition, I'd argue that having 22k views, with 7 upvotes and 2 downvotes qualifies as a "useful signpoint". I'd understand this reason if it had maybe hundreds of views and weren't adding any value. However, 22k views is not an insignificant amount, and having it closed as a duplicate provides far more value to the community than deletion.

no significant activity over a very long period after being asked

This one is likely the most plausible. However, it's also the reason I understand the least. Why should no significant activity result in deletion? Not that I agree with it, but the most plausible reason this should result in deletion is due to outdated information that is no longer relevant and therefore is doing more harm to viewers (in wasted time). (Not that I agree with that reason because things like bounties exist). However, that is the most plausible reason for deletion. But, this question doesn't fall under that criteria. The question is still relevant, the linked question is still relevant.

No wonder it has no activity because it was closed as a duplicate. However, I'd guess the views on the post still continue to grow. Which to me should be taken into account when discussing "significant activity". It still remains useful and valuable to the community as a pointer for users to find the information and answers they are looking for. Deleting that completely loses that value.


So to summarize, I do not understand why this question was deleted.

This leads to a few questions:

  1. Am I wrong about something in my assessment here? The help center uses these terms, and it's very easy for it to be interpreted differently.
  2. Is there something else in the help center that I'm missing that would qualify this question for deletion?
  3. I have never used an undelete vote before. Would this be a good candidate for that feature?

Here's a screenshot of the question contents for users with under 10k reputation:

Question screenshot

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  • 4
    I posted a separate question / bug report about "signpoint": Typo in help: s/signpoint/signpost
    – tripleee
    Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 18:51
  • Well... ok, it's definitely a huge dupe, but it does not seem to be unsalvageable (although it does need some editing). Possibly a good candidate for undeletion.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 18:57
  • 41
    "asked Jan 24, 2019"; almost a full decade after the duplicate and well after thousands of other questions about how to manipulate JavaScript Date objects were asked and answered. How much do people get before their lack of research becomes "too egregious"? How many no-effort questions asking "I have a date and I want a date one hour later" do we need as duplicates? Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 19:45
  • 1
    Just seems like a garden variety duplicate. Unclear why it would get deleted instead of just closed as duplicate. It does serve as a signpost to the duplicate reference which is what I presume that word is supposed to be.
    – jfriend00
    Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 6:43
  • 3
    On signposts, the Why are some questions marked as duplicate? page says "If the question closed as a duplicate has no answers, then anonymous users will be automatically redirected to the question it is marked as a duplicate of" so arguably this question is leeching traffic from the canonical as anonymous users may not understand the purpose of the duplicate banner not proceed there. Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 10:45
  • 6
    Because Haters gonna hate. Seriously, the rote kneejerk Close->Delete voting on this site has gotten so bad that it's virtually a caricature of itself. Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 13:12
  • 16
    @RBarryYoung Maybe you are privileged enough to focus on technologies that are not flooded with extremely low quality posts, but I would actually love to see more users actively moderate (i.e. close and delete) web technologies such as JavaScript.
    – idmean
    Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 13:22
  • 2
    Signpoints are substantially different questions that have the same answer as a canonical question, or questions that are asked with non-standard terminology because knowing the standard terminology would have led the asker to the answer. Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 15:15
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    Am I missing something? This is a case of a duplicate question where there is nothing new that does not exist in the duplicate link. Am I wrong when I assume that duplicates only add noise and should be removed? There are already 3 undelete votes for this duplicate. Good job...
    – forpas
    Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 17:50
  • @forpas because it's dogma.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 17:54
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    @RBarryYoung "Because Haters gonna hate" is such a lazy and inappropriate comment. There are surely some misguided souls here who should not be casting close votes on topics outside of their expertise, but closing/deleting can be the least bad option. By far. I may question the qualifications of some close voters, but never their sincerity or their motives.
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 18:04
  • 1
    And now the duplicate is undeleted. Great job...
    – forpas
    Commented Apr 12, 2022 at 11:22
  • Regarding "signposts": if we don't have some hundred low quality dupes but just one good question, would the "signposts" make it easier or harder to find the good one? That's quite subjective and depends on how you search. Generally there's so much noise on SO that we could delete some 95% of the site content and none would notice it...
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 12, 2022 at 14:38
  • @Lundin in theory, you would evaluate how many unique keywords each new duplicate question adds and remove those that are below 1.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 12, 2022 at 15:05
  • 3
    For what it's worth, "signpoint" is now changed to "signpost".Thanks for bringing it up!
    – tripleee
    Commented Apr 13, 2022 at 3:02

5 Answers 5

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I'm in favour of deletion of this particular question: all of the answers on that question are not so high in quality ("try this" kind without any explanation), provide known bad guidance (setHours does not work properly with daylight saving time and requires reading its documentation to know the behavior around 23+1), as well as modifying prototypes on built-in types (and exactly the same discussions from the comments is available on the duplicate).

Since deleting answers with high score is not possible for users and moderators will not remove answers that are within the rules, it is very hard to find a better solution than removing the question, especially when there is not much lost: a good and easy way to find the duplicate exists and reputation collected on old posts is not removed when that post is deleted.

Side note: it is unclear what the reasoning/motivation of voters was to delete, as none of them has high score in JavaScript. So while I think there is a good reason for the post to stay deleted, there may be something else related to the post that triggered deletion.

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    So there actually were several low-quality answers on the Q&A? It puts the deletion in a better perspective, have to agree with that.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 20:53
  • 1
    @OlegValteriswithUkraine yes. Actually all answers are that way - tweaked wording of my answer. Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 21:00
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    These are screenshots of the three answers to this question: answer 1, answer 2, and answer 3. @OlegValteriswithUkraine (and anyone else under 10k who is curious)
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 21:23
  • 3
    @HenryEcker - thank you! - I sort of think that even <10K rep users should be able to see a deleted question when coming in from a link on meta ...
    – davidbak
    Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 18:12
18

I'm going to look at this through another lens. I've come against deleting posts in the past, but in this case I see that deletion is perfectly valid and something I concur with.

My different approach is simple: was anything of value lost?

Take the linked duplicate. This dupe perfectly answers the question that the OP had.

The additional answers in the question you link/reference suggest no; because every answer in your referenced question refer to setHours, we already have an answer that covers this.

As for it being a useful signpost: I mean, it did get 22K hits, whereas the linked duplicate has something on the order of 700K hits. How useful is it for someone just looking for a quick thing to copy off the Internet? Probably useful, but I would conjecture that the other question is more valuable and more useful, since it does offer a wider variety of approaches to solve this problem besides just the one.

All of that to say, while there could be an argument to not delete this kind of question, I don't find myself super eager to undelete it, either. We already have a perfectly suitable "adding time to a Date object in JavaScript" question right there.

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    Re "...22K hits, whereas the linked duplicate has something on the order of 700K hits": Adjusted for question age (view rate), it would be about 150 K hits, not 22K hits. Perhaps it was very popular with the search engines for some reason? Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 23:52
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen I think newer content might be more popular with search engines just generally? Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 3:14
  • 4
    At least Duck Duck Go seems to favor extremely recent content when available. It's almost scary actually.
    – tripleee
    Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 3:56
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I am one of the delete voters.

I decided to cast the delete vote because this is a very basic and common duplicate question.

But, when I observed the views (I am aware about signpost value), I was doubtful to proceed with deletion. My thought was that it is better to merge it with its duplicate target. To take advice from the community, I posted in the SOCVR chatroom. When there was no activity on it, I assumed it (merge or not) does not matter much to the community. Then I cast the delete vote for the reason mentioned above.

My view on the situation today is still the same. It is nth duplicate and is very basic. Merging it is the far better solution. That way, we also preserve the signpost.

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    "Merging it is the far better solution." Only when there's content that would be lost but it's still useful. As Alexei mentions and the screenshots that Henry posted... these answers are all but useful.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 11, 2022 at 17:52
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I'm the fourth delete voter.

The first time I came across the question was when Amit Joshi posted the message on SOCVR chatroom (ref. their answer on this same Q&A). I didn't have a particular opinion at that time, although the question didn't strike me as particularly good.

The subsequent day, I saw the question again on the Moderator Tools page as it was building up delete votes. I examined the question again to check whether those votes were warranted and I concluded that yes, they were.

In particular I took into account the overall quality of the duplicate. When I do this, I try to put myself in the shoes of someone who is not familiar with that issue and is browsing Stack Overflow to solve some actual problem they have:

  • was the title unique enough to help researchers find it on search engines with different keywords than the original? No, the title was basically the same. "How to add 1 hour to new Date() object created in javascript?" vs. "Adding hours to JavaScript Date object?"

  • was the title in any way better or clearer than the original? No, in fact it was worse, since it narrows the issue down to an irrelevant detail (the number of hours to be added).

  • were the non-deleted answers on the duplicate detailed enough to provide useful insights that were missing from the original? No. In fact they were all worse. One simply stated "this should work" with no explanation whatsoever, the other at least had a link to some documentation but didn't explain why that would be a good solution, or offer any other comparison, caveats, common gotchas of using setHours etc. Even if such answers may help solve that problem right now, they are not going to make you a better programmer in any significant way.

  • the comment thread on the first answer was also less insightful than the richer comment threads on the original.

  • the original has more answers, fully covering those in the duplicate, and offering more alternatives in one single place.

I did not take into account the number of views, upvotes nor the post timestamps. I considered the sheer quality of the Q&A and the value it could have to visitors.

If I were researching that issue, I would find that question somewhat underwhelming, and I would be even mildly annoyed by having to navigate to the original and compare the answers on both Q&As to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

Given the above, I decided that deleting that question not only did not make Stack Overflow worse, it also had chances to make it a little bit better.

With this said, as a user with the relevant privileges, it is your prerogative to go ahead and cast an undelete vote, although I do not think you'd be making a favor to the community with that.

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    Let's be careful with the good/bad. It's a good question, just not a useful one since it already exists umpteen times. The only reason this question is close and delete worthy is because Stack Overflow is a knowledge base, in any other site this would be perfectly acceptable and quickly answered.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 12, 2022 at 14:51
-4

Makoto wrote:

My different approach is simple: was anything of value lost?

I think this makes a lot of sense. My approach is slightly different: Is it likely that this post will be edited so that it get some value?

There are several factors here, including the state of the question, but also how long ago it was posted, the posters history, if there are any comments, how the poster have responded to those comments etc.

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    I mean your approach is not bad or anything, I just don't think it applies to this particular case. You only take that approach when there actually is a hint of unique value somewhere. You have to spend your precious reviewing time wisely.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 12, 2022 at 15:01

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