-24

Please note: This is not about forking/splitting Stack Overflow into "beginners" and "advanced" (as discussed e.g. here, here, and here, tag: split-stack-overflow). It's about facilitating a better focus on relevant topics in a plural/messy field.

On a prologue: I'm growing frustrated with the level of contents in my staple feed: the php tag. My primary interest is with core PHP at an intermediate/advanced level. In discovering, reviewing and implementing solutions to problems encountered when developing something reasonably complicated, from a scratch or otherwise.

Now, your average programming language would have more of a gradient and a shared base of concerns between beginners and advanced, the former (potentially) in their time turning into the latter. However, not so in the wild wide world of PHP, where the language is commonly engaged with at very different levels and fields.

What makes the PHP feed so messy? We have, among others, the following:

  1. Absolute beginners, who haven't read the first tutorials (and often, not even the "How to ask?"), struggling with invalid syntax and common error messages;
  2. People dabbling in a mish-mash of HTML and PHP, where PHP is taken for a templating language plus; basically, tweaking/scripting in contrast to programming;
  3. People crafting things around a particular CMS, library or framework, with often very niche issues that add little value to the common body of knowledge here;
  4. People sorting out actual code they have written that still has bugs, missing aspects, or poor performance, etc.; typically from developers with a couple of years under the belt.

...and I'm sure there are a couple more "common types of PHP users" we can identify that mostly work in a particular zone of the language's many applications, who would welcome better focus on their relevant fields.

The problem experienced: There is no way to filter the feed to focus on #4 type questions and answers -- which is the sort I'd enjoy frequently engaging with. I can (and do) filter out #3, where I can be bothered to keep on adding to the list of ignored tags (assuming properly tagged). Still, the bulk of it falls into #1 and #2, to a point where I'm lucky to find one or two #4 type questions in a day. User experience: Shifting through way too much noise.

I realize that the plurality of fields and user types may be an issue that troubles other language (-tags) as well, with their respective break-downs of the typical divides. Don't take this as a PHP-exclusive concern, wherever the shoe fits; I can only speak from my personal experience here. (Yet, given the popularity and the low entry threshold of the language, I suspect PHP user demographics are rather skewed toward "beginner" and "tinkering" in comparison.)

What can I/we do about it? This is the question, hoping for your suggestions.

  • Would it make sense to create more categorical tags? For example, ; and (grouping much of #2 into one); , and (grouping all of #3 into one); , , , etc. (grouping for #4). This would definitely help me focus my engagement to where it fits.

  • If the above doesn't make sense, then would it be possible to facilitate separate multi-tag aggregate feeds: that is, where one could list specific tags and have them appear in a separate feed? (N.B. Looking at the synonym list for PHP sub-tags, I see that most everything [php-*] redirects to , making them next to useless. ? Nope.)

  • We already have quite a few great FAQs on common PHP issues. Perhaps they could be pooled into a single list for ease of reference, and said list provided as suggested reading? That, and we could definitely use whatever other further measures that may help cut down the mind-boggling volume of duplicates.

Thanks very much for the kind attention -- and any suggestions given and measures taken -- in advancing better focus and content quality for the diverse audiences frequenting Stack Overflow.

11
  • 2
    The FAQ is typically written into the tag wikis, and PHP actually has an okay one Dec 25, 2021 at 23:23
  • 4
    People don't read basic "How to Ask" details so trying to find a way to get them reading/searching FAQ is almost futile. The most prolific behavior tends to be ask first... research later (if ever)
    – charlietfl
    Dec 25, 2021 at 23:27
  • php-oop is a synonym of php like 15 other tags that start with "php-". Dec 25, 2021 at 23:37
  • 4
    Beyond Dharman's excellent answer, I'd just add that if we had [php-beginners] and [php-advanced], then other language tags would want it, so we'd get [javascript-beginners] and [javascript-advanced], etc., and then, well, you might as well have a beginner Stack Overflow and and advanced Stack Overflow, right? So it is kind of the same question.... Dec 25, 2021 at 23:40
  • @HereticMonkey oh yes there it is. I see that it's linked from "Learn more…" under the tag feed. I wonder how many users notice it. Perhaps it could be linked to from the sidebar of the "Ask a Question" view. Along with the "How to Ask", while there's a summary of what to consider there, a direct link to How to Ask might be useful. Given the general problem of users not orienting to the basics, underlying so many other quality issues, wouldn't it make sense to increase exposure to the "how to" and "FAQ" read-ups?
    – Markus AO
    Dec 26, 2021 at 10:34
  • @HereticMonkey yes I see that php-oop is a synonym/redirect, which is what I was pointing to in the OP. (How is it a "synonym"? It's a category under PHP, not a synonym.) Then, I have no means for actually targeting that tag as a potential interest. The trend seems to be that PHP frameworks and applications get to keep a separate tag, while different core aspects either don't have a tag or redirect to php flat.
    – Markus AO
    Dec 26, 2021 at 10:42
  • 2
    My question was closed as a duplicate of What is the appropriate reaction to meta tags?. Seriously though, what I bring up is very clearly a different concern from whatever that's discussed there. Agree or not, but does this really need to be hastily closed (and down-voted hard, as most things on Meta it seems?!), when it's a discussion seeking for possible solutions for improving the quality of content on SO, and features concerns not explicitly addressed elsewhere?
    – Markus AO
    Dec 26, 2021 at 10:46
  • 1
    I agree that the duplicate chosen is incorrect. The downvotes are justified as they express an opinion on meta. People seem to not like your proposal.
    – Dharman Mod
    Dec 26, 2021 at 19:05
  • 1
    To be honest, the dupe closure seems to be dictated by one of the proposed solutions, which is properly addressed in the duplicate target. That said, I agree that the proposal is not sufficiently addressed by the target, hence also voted for reopening. P.S. To second Dharman, the downvoting has nothing to do (likely) with the quality of the post. feature-requests are explicitly mentioned as being voted on according to what one thinks about the merits of the proposal, not on the question itself (although the latter is allowed and happens too). Dec 26, 2021 at 19:18
  • 1

1 Answer 1

18

I am against this idea, but I do understand your frustration. I don't think the conclusions you have made from your observations are correct. Let me share some counterarguments.

What makes the PHP feed so messy?

  1. Absolute beginners, who haven't read the first tutorials (and often, not even the "How to ask?"), struggling with invalid syntax and common error messages;

That is an issue that isn't specific to PHP only. Pretty much every tag has this problem, some have it even worse. While Stack Overflow accommodates questions of every level of difficulty, each question must be of adequate quality. What you should do here is what we usually do with these kind of questions. Edit where appropriate, downvote and vote to close the rest. If the question is so low quality that it won't help anybody, then our downvotes tell the system to remove it.

  1. People dabbling in a mishmash of HTML and PHP, where PHP is taken for a templating language plus; basically, tweaking/scripting in contrast to programming;

It's true that PHP was designed to be a templating system for C and people still use it this way. There's nothing inherently wrong with question asking about a combination of HTML and PHP. The problem here is that people often don't separate their presentation logic from their application logic. What you can do here is point out how to separate it in your answer. This doesn't require any special treatment from Stack Overflow.

The combination of HTML + PHP isn't anything special. You can think of it like any other content generation through PHP. The same rules apply here as with the rest of PHP programming world.

  1. People crafting things around a particular CMS, library or framework, with often very niche issues that add little value to the common body of knowledge here;

This already has a solution: tags. We don't need anything else as this is working pretty well.

  1. People sorting out actual code they have written that still has bugs, missing aspects, or poor performance, etc.; typically from developers with a couple of years under the belt.

This actually covers the previous 3 points. The bug might be in HTML generation functionality or in database access logic or poor performance of XML parsing or something else. It doesn't matter what it is as long as it is a suitable programming problem. The experience of the question asker doesn't matter and in most cases we don't know whether they are a student or experienced developer. Developers with years of experience can ask some pretty basic questions too.

The problem

There is no way to filter the feed to focus on #4 type questions and answers -- which is the sort I'd enjoy frequently engaging with.

In other words, you are looking for interesting questions to answer and it's difficult to find them. Yeah... making changes to the tagging system or anything else like that won't help much as we already have a pretty accurate tagging system. The issue here is that there just aren't that many good questions asked. Many of the new questions are duplicates. There are plenty of mediocre questions that aren't really worth the effort of answering. Finding gems that really deserve answers isn't easy.

This is a problem that probably doesn't have a solution. There will always be bad questions. Our job as curators is to sieve through new questions and rate them appropriately. Downvote useless questions. Vote to close questions that are unclear, are asking for too much or are clearly off-topic. This does work. It's tedious work but it's necessary to make the gems stand out and hide all the useless questions from public view. You would not believe how many questions are deleted; either by the system or by 10k+ users. This curation activity is what leads to the success of Stack Overflow.

Regarding your proposal

Would it make sense to create more categorical tags? For example, php-beginnersphp-html and php-scripts...

No, that is a rather bad idea. Especially php-beginners. This doesn't tell us anything about what the question is actually asking about. The only thing it might tell us is that this question is likely to deserve a downvote more than a question without this tag. php-html is just two separate tags, which we already have. The other tags you propose are just way too broad to ever be useful.

If the above doesn't make sense, then would it be possible to facilitate separate multi-tag aggregate feeds: that is, where one could list specific tags and have them appear in a separate feed?

Yeah, we kind of already have that. The question filter functionality is robust and works quite well.

I wouldn't add anything here.

We already have quite a few great FAQs on common PHP issues. Perhaps they could be pooled into a single list for ease of reference, and said list provided as suggested reading?

Suggested reading for whom? Who is going to read this? There is a problem already with PHP canonicals that they are too broad. Many of these questions should be split into individual questions. Compiling them into a book will just result in people ignoring this even more and going the lazy route of asking a new question.

We close as duplicate where appropriate but a better proposal would be to create more specific canonicals.

To summarize: PHP isn't the only tag that has a problem with quality. A lot of this could be improved by Stack Exchange clearly stating the expectations of new users; i.e. prevent new questions even before they are posted. We already have powerful filtering tools that help us to find relevant questions. Tags help us narrow down the technologies or topics that we are interested in. The rest is just tedious curation work. Close, downvote, delete, flag, etc.

3
  • 3
    Apart from improved canonicals a more robust search engine to find dups would be a big plus getting faster closures with more people participating in that task
    – charlietfl
    Dec 25, 2021 at 23:59
  • @Dharman thanks for the well thought-out answer. I understand there are bigger, more general problems that wouldn't all be solved with the ideas I brought up. Seriously though, there has to be something that can be done on the UI level to cut down on the tedious curation process you brought up. With just enough time to chase down a couple of quality questions, but not enough time to sort through the heaps or curate at any length; the outcome is simply a feeling that my attention might be better invested and more rewarding in doing something else, sadly.
    – Markus AO
    Dec 26, 2021 at 11:02
  • Still on the tagging system. Most core PHP related tags have been turned into synonyms/redirects, making them all but useless for targeting related questions. Mostly tags related to extensions/frameworks are unique (with some random exceptions). Thanks for pointing out the "save custom filter" feature in the Questions feed, I had missed that. In related notes, when I head to tags and filter for PHP to see all related tags, and sort by name, I see the results are cut off at cakephp-3.7 with no pagination/load more option. Can this be fixed?
    – Markus AO
    Dec 26, 2021 at 11:06

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .