13

This question was closed as "seeking recommendations for books, tools, software libraries and more", but I don't see it... The question simply asks if there is a way to save crash logs in a file. Not for a library that helps with it. I still think it should be closed though, as "needs details or clarity". The close reason should have been better chosen, as things like this can make newer users confused.

My guess on why it was closed for that reason was this comment:

Have you thought about using something like sentry?

The main question however had no part asking for libraries.

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  • 31
    The question seems low-quality. But certainly, it was not "seeking recommendations".
    – PCM
    Nov 23, 2021 at 7:28
  • 20
    I don't think it's worth bringing this up here. (Low-quality) Questions get closed with the wrong reason all the time. You can vote to reopen, leave a comment to help OP improve the question or flag if you think some of the close voters are acting maliciously.
    – idmean
    Nov 23, 2021 at 8:09
  • 16
    The question is so vague & general, how is it not asking for libraries & more?
    – philipxy
    Nov 23, 2021 at 8:10
  • 28
    Unfortunately anyone who asks a question and hints that rather than writing the code by hand, they would be prepared to reuse existing code if available, runs the risk of having the question closed with this closure reason. It's a crazy policy: we should be encouraging reuse of library code rather than discouraging it. Nov 23, 2021 at 8:24
  • 43
    If there isn't a valid close reason to close the question, it shouldn't be closed. The close reason provides valuable feedback to the OP. Closing questions using random reasons for whatever holy reason should be shunned. The end doesn't justify the means.
    – TheMaster
    Nov 23, 2021 at 8:45
  • 13
    This is not some unique incident. Close reason are wrong in so many cases. The default reasons that can be selected are in many cases overlapping and in other cases there is no default reason that fits. It's a well known problem but nothing is done to solve it. As SO user all we can do is to accept that close reason doesn't really have much meaning. Nov 23, 2021 at 9:30
  • 8
    A question should not be closed at all, unless there is a very good reason for it such as trolling. For everything else there is a vote down button, and this downvote should require a short explanation. There are never a bad question, only bad answers, so maybe it shold not even be possible to downvote questions.
    – user9152964
    Nov 23, 2021 at 10:15
  • 28
    @Hills That's a different subject, which has been discussed ad nauseam. The community doesn't agree with you. (Some Google searches should yield the reasons why.)
    – Ivar
    Nov 23, 2021 at 10:22
  • 9
    @Hills we have a list of very good reasons in the close vote dialog. We are supposed to use them when they apply.
    – VLAZ
    Nov 23, 2021 at 10:38
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    It does not apply to Stack Overflow since SO defines rules for questions, which implies there ARE bad questions in the context of Stack Overflow. Anyone who claims that there are no bad questions are trying to use Stack Overflow as they please instead of as intended.
    – Gimby
    Nov 23, 2021 at 10:43
  • 17
    @Hills you've not explained the not-badness of the two I showed
    – VLAZ
    Nov 23, 2021 at 10:49
  • 13
    @Hills right but you still didn't explain why the two questions I directly showed are not bad. You keep saying they aren't, not why you think that they are not. Are you trying to prove my question to you was bad by repeatedly giving deliberately bad answers to it?
    – VLAZ
    Nov 23, 2021 at 10:56
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    @Hills I don't know why I have to repeat this for the third time but none of what you said explains why you think the two questions I showed and asked you about 20 minutes ago are not bad. You've now said you haven't even looked at them. Is my query here to you not clear? Surely it's not a bad one, so why do you keep not answering it?
    – VLAZ
    Nov 23, 2021 at 11:06
  • 11
    @Hills "Where did I say those questions are not bad?" when you said that there do not exist bad questions. That is the very thing I challenged by showing you the two questions. "As said, I have not read those questions" thus admitting you've not tried to answer me. "surely I don't have any opinion about them, but again, that is irrelevant." not when I very straight forward - why these two questions are not bad. This is the fifth time you have not answered.
    – VLAZ
    Nov 23, 2021 at 11:29
  • 18
    Bad questions most definitely exist. They are the unanswerable, unclear and unfocused questions
    – MrMythical
    Nov 23, 2021 at 11:52

2 Answers 2

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The SO question in... question has now been closed as a dupe, so this Meta question as stated is no longer applicable. However, since this topic ("should questions be allowed to be closed for any arbitrary reason?" is important, I've answered it below.


No, it technically shouldn't have been closed with that reason. But realistically, close reasons don't actually matter.

That's because most of them used to be quite specific and helpful, but over the years many have been so diluted and made so ambiguous as to effectively be useless at providing actionable feedback to askers... which is ostensibly the entire rationale for these reasons to exist.

As a result, many curators are no longer as careful with selecting a close reason as they once were. There's also ever-increasing volumes of bad questions, and if you have to choose between agonising between the "most correct" close reason or closing 10 more bad questions in a day, most curators are going to pick the latter. Then there's the fact that evermore of the bad questions that do get closed are never revisited by their one-shot-wonder askers; if a close reason is provided but never read, it doesn't matter what reason was provided.

Yes, you should always try to be as accurate as possible when choosing to close a question. But reality doesn't work that way - when workloads increase, people start to take shortcuts, and that's what's happening with bad questions and their curators.

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  • 4
    I think that before closing a question people should ask themselves if the question can be improved and if it can still help someone. Blindly closing every "not so great" question because "oh, if i was wrong they can still get revisited" is not the smartest way to proceed, many people won't even try to improve it, stick with that and look for a solution somewhere else when maybe that solution might have been helpful on SO
    – Fabio R.
    Nov 24, 2021 at 10:11
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    Why spend so much time on closing or downvoting when this time and energy could go into actually answering or improving the question itself. One does not need to be a moderator to do that. It's not really your responsibility (or only a few moderators) to decide whether or not a question is good or bad and that is a big flaw in the logic of this site.
    – user9152964
    Nov 24, 2021 at 10:31
  • 5
    I still stand by my motto: there are never bad questions, only bad answers. It's time to think about it, because in the end you will only be left with those type of questions - everyone else will be gone and so will the time many of you have spent using this site as some kind of personal CV (please use Github for that).
    – user9152964
    Nov 24, 2021 at 10:44
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    @Hills this isn't necessarily matter of responsibility. For folks like me for example curating inappropriate questions is a matter of keeping site worthy for us, "I want Stack Overflow to keep helping people like me - those who get their answers here after dumping their question into google search box... I don't want my search results polluted with useless solutions to homework dumps. I don't want it to be flooded with thousand answers to single simple question about NPE / NRE..."
    – gnat
    Nov 24, 2021 at 11:12
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    @Hills Put things in perspective. Stack Overflow receives 12 million visits a day, which is several magnitudes more than the six thousand questions asked a day. With that strategy, we'd be inefficiently helping a bit more than 6 thousand people while leaving the repository in a mess. With curation, we're helping site visitors, a much larger slice of the developer population.
    – E_net4
    Nov 24, 2021 at 11:18
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    @Hills In fact, it is not the job of moderators to improve questions at all. We deal only with content or users that are causing problems. Exactly as you said, anyone can and should try to improve posts whenever possible. That is always preferred over closing. Unfortunately, in most cases, it is simply not possible for a third party to improve a question to the point where it meets Stack Overflow's strict standards, and that leaves third parties with little choice other than to close it. Note that closure doesn't mean a question is "bad", only that it's unsuitable for this site. Nov 24, 2021 at 11:20
  • 17
    While I sympathize with the frustration here, and I certainly understand that when operating on a scale like SO does, mistakes will inevitably be made (and will appear to be made far more often than they actually are), I do have some concerns about the apparent disclaimer of personal responsibility that certain portions of this answer implies. Every vote you cast, for the reason you cast it, is something you are personally responsible for standing behind, including its applicability to the post on which you cast it. If you can't stake that claim or suffer that responsibility, don't vote. Nov 24, 2021 at 11:24
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    @gnat you always have to remember that as a highly specific, well made and very complicated question might be the best for your current level of expertise, an easy, short and "noobie" questions might be helpful to someone else. For example even a "What is an Array" question (provided that has not been already asked) might be helpful to someone that has just got into this world and, since SO shows you only what you are looking for, you won't get there unless you don't know that. SO can even be a helpful way to get started (when you're not downvoted into oblivion)
    – Fabio R.
    Nov 24, 2021 at 11:25
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    Yes, of course; no one has ever claimed that beginner questions are unsuitable on Stack Overflow, @Fabio. However, "what is an array" is likely too broad if that's all there was. It would need more contextualization and elaboration, like a specific programming language, an example of the type of declaration you are using, etc. And, as you said, if it were a duplicate, it should, of course, be closed as such. Still, I completely agree that SO can, should be, and is a resource for programmers of all experience levels, and closing questions because you already know the answer is unjustifiable Nov 24, 2021 at 11:29
  • 4
    "...close reasons don't actually matter..." If this would be true, why does this question here on meta even exist. I think they matter. Nov 24, 2021 at 11:46
  • 5
    @CodyGray I'm not providing an opinion on behaviour, merely documenting it.
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 24, 2021 at 12:09
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    @Trilarion Because people believe they matter, which is the correct way to go about it; but reality and belief don't always dovetail.
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 24, 2021 at 12:11
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    @FabioR. my interest is primarily in noobie questions because I search most when coding stuff I'm not deeply familiar with. Though when I am totally unfamiliar with something ("what is an array?" level) I found that traditional basic tutorials win hands down and questions like language syntax basics at SO indeed pollute my search results and make it harder for me to get to proper introductory learning resources
    – gnat
    Nov 24, 2021 at 12:33
  • 1
    "as to effectively be useless at providing actionable feedback to askers" you should read the close reason OP's are shown, there's an actionable feedback: ask a new question. Before the actionable feedback was: edit the question.
    – Braiam
    Nov 24, 2021 at 14:21
  • 3
    “close reasons don't actually matter” - It matters a lot to the person who is trying ask the question.
    – user17331185
    Nov 24, 2021 at 22:22
-10

In my humble and personal opinion I think that that question should have not been closed at all, not for:

seeking recommendations for books, tools, software libraries and more

and not as a "duplicate".

First of all he is not asking for code (or at least he didn't say that, maybe he's expecting that, but he didn't directly ask for it, we will never know). He obviously is not asking for manuals and stuff.

For second the question specifically asks how to log crash reports of a discord bot to a file, the "duplicate" just asks how to write to file with Javascript. I have never touched a discord bot but usually, in my experience, catching a crash error is not as simple as "writing the error to a file", maybe the crash he has doesn't even produce an error to log.

There's even already an answer in the comments

Have you thought about using something like sentry?

And that could have been all that the OP needed.

This question had surely room for improvement, but maybe giving some feedback instead of just closing the question is more beneficial to the whole community.

Lately it appears to me that people close questions just for the sake of it, just because they already know the answer, to feel paladins of justice and/or just for trolling newcomers. I think the question the OP links falls into one of this categories.

As i said in a comment somewhere around here I think that closing questions should be harder and maybe require some kind of comment instead of the prepared statements or a certain number of votes from mods, this would make closing a truly useful tool to close questions that can't and won't be answered (such as the ones VLAZ posted in the comments of this question) instead of a way to annoy someone you deem inferior.

EDIT(from comments):

After reading a lot of comments I came to the conclusion that this is not a solvable problem. The "purist" faction will always accuse the others of wanting easy code to copy and the others will always accuse the first of being douches.

As both kind of people coexist on the platform we are just throwing feces at each other while people who do not care about SO at all continue to post awful questions and close good questions in the background. We are too focused on fighting the other faction while bad apples do every kind of mischief in this mess.

We all just want to improve StackOverflow, but are not willing to accept other solutions but ours, when the real solution is not one OR the other, but one AND the other.

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  • 9
    "but maybe giving some feedback instead of just closing the question is more beneficial to the whole community" Closing a question is feedback. And more often than not, (in case the close reason doesn't fully explain it,) there are comments adding further explanation. If the OP edits their question, they have to possibility to check the "the question should be considered for reopening" checkbox and reviewers can reopen the question if the problems are resolved.
    – Ivar
    Nov 24, 2021 at 12:54
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    An example of that is "Needs debugging details" - it asks you to show the desired outcome and an mcve
    – MrMythical
    Nov 24, 2021 at 13:23
  • 3
    So, you don't know if the duplicate answers the question or not? How about we trust the people who voted to close the question as such? And the OP, who can edit their question to show how the duplicate didn't answer their question and get it reopened? Nov 24, 2021 at 13:24
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    Lately it appears to me that people protest closing questions just for the sake of it, just because they want a copy/paste answer, to feel paladins of justice and/or just for trolling curators. Nov 24, 2021 at 13:27
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    @Ivar closing question is not proper feedback, especially when the closing reason is wrong. This question in particular just had to improve the wording and add details about what he needed to do. I agree with you that a simple comment is enough, but more often than not the question is just closed and bye bye, with no real explanation of why. I mean, if i get an "The question is too broad" i get what it means, but the why might not be immediately obvious
    – Fabio R.
    Nov 24, 2021 at 13:37
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    @HereticMonkey So you would just trust some random dude that maybe felt that two questions were the same because they shared a couple of words in the title? Don't you think that a better approach would be telling the OP that there's a similar question and then letting he decide if it applies to his case or not (obviously not if they are the exact same, but these were not)? You just assumed that the person that is closing the question knows what he is talking about, but that's not always the case.
    – Fabio R.
    Nov 24, 2021 at 13:45
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    I am totally with you on a wrong close reason being harmful because it is incorrect feedback. But I don't quite understand your objection to the question being closed as a duplicate. Do you not think that it is a duplicate? Nov 24, 2021 at 13:46
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    @FabioR. not just some random person, It is 3 people who the community trusts (and hence they have the privilege to cast close votes). Nov 24, 2021 at 13:48
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    You are fooling yourself if you think you can assess the motivations or thinking behind other users votes. It has been long recognized that more questions should be closed, not less. This isn't a help desk
    – charlietfl
    Nov 24, 2021 at 13:49
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    On Stack Overflow, "duplicate" means "you can find your answer here". In other words, this other, previously-asked question has the same answer as your question. Having a question closed as a duplicate doesn't necessarily imply that you should have been able to find the other question in your research. Often, askers who don't do adequate research before asking end up having their questions closed as duplicates, but that's not the only case where it can happen. Sometimes, seeing that a question has the same solution as another existing question requires some expertise in the subject-matter. Nov 24, 2021 at 13:54
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    Your statement about why people close questions lately is generalized and has nothing to do with the specific question or specific reasoning. You used a very broad brush to outline what you think is a trend based on nothing but assumptions
    – charlietfl
    Nov 24, 2021 at 13:55
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    "the topics treated on SO are too many for mods to know everything about everything" That's absolutely correct, and this is why moderators are not primarily involved in closing questions. There are a narrow set of subjects where I have significant expertise, but once you get into web programming, or Python, or R, I am a complete novice (or worse). This is why we leave closing to the community, rather than having mods do it. This allows us to get people with real subject-matter expertise handling the closing of questions, including marking of duplicates, and that's what really counts. Nov 24, 2021 at 13:57
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    @MrMythical the rule is here
    – Braiam
    Nov 24, 2021 at 14:30
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    @MrMythical yes, it's possible, since off topic/community specific reasons wins when there's no consensus.
    – Braiam
    Nov 24, 2021 at 14:34
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    @PeterCordes Well that was my opinion, and people expressed their opinion by downvoting. I find nothing wrong with this, I don't need approval from other users and other users don't need approval in my answer. Moreover my edit was some further reasoning on the matter, but is totally unrelated to the first part of the answer which I still think is true. If I wanted more rep or upvotes I could just say "We DoN't MaKe YoUr HoMeWoRk" in any random question and that would fruit me a lot, but since I care only about SO, its users, and potential ones, I answer independently from the general consensus
    – Fabio R.
    Nov 24, 2021 at 15:52

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