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This question is about using a venerable FTP client (probably netkit's FTP client since the original one has passed hands several times in distributions). There's nothing programming here, no API, library or similar. Just plain simple normal user task. Can we delete it?

This question already is on Super User, Server Fault and Unix and Linux.

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  • 9
    There's no problems with having a question on multiple communities; especially when it's on topic for multiple of them.
    – Thom A
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:02
  • 9
    This question "has historical significance". Let's keep it.
    – TGrif
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:08
  • 15
    The question had an historical lock recently added: can you explain why you disagree with that and want it deleting instead? Oct 25, 2021 at 14:09
  • 10
    So despite that it's clearly helped a lot of people, have a lot of views and high scores, it's been flagged and locked by a moderator.. you still want it gone? What harm is it doing?
    – Scratte
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:09
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    @Scratte so does a recipe about a apple pie, despite that is not kept on SO.
    – Braiam
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:16
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    I doubt many people will disagree that the question is off-topic, but a moderator has decided that the question has value despite being off-topic. You claim it has no value, but the onus would seem to be on you to convince at least one (possibly other) moderator that this moderator decision is incorrect. Oct 25, 2021 at 14:20
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    It's the first Google search hit for "ftp download directory". You need a pretty darn good reason to remove it other than "It's also on another site."
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:34
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    That's all the more reason to remove it. why hold hostage the top result while also preventing it from being maintained?
    – Kevin B
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:35
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    I don't even understand why this meta posts exists. Why not find really bad stuff to remove from the site instead of spending time discussion one that's clearly not completely horrible?
    – Scratte
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:36
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    "hold hostage"? "preventing it from being maintained"? That's a little dramatic...
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:36
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    We do not delete good content. We do not delete good content. comes to mind for why moderators feel the need to use the lock.
    – Scratte
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:53
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    It's not doing any harm to anyone. Let's leave it as it is now.
    – Dharman Mod
    Oct 25, 2021 at 17:22
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    @Dharman a apple pie recipe doesn't harm anyone, that's no reason to keep it on the site. Deleting isn't about harm, is about value. Otherwise, the crap ton of off topic questions that we close every day, wouldn't be cleaned by roomba.
    – Braiam
    Oct 25, 2021 at 17:24
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    That question has half a million views. Twice as much as the ServerFault duplicate, and infinitely more than the others you linked. If it's so harmful to SO, I'd expect some examples of how it's harming SO so much. Having this question on SO doesn't affect the roomba-bility of other questions. It doesn't make other questions any more difficult to close. And even the historical lock already says it's off-topic, so users really can't use it as an example why their question is okay, and are trivially dismissed. All I'm seeing here is some very black and white interpretation of the rules.
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 26, 2021 at 7:16
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    @DalijaPrasnikar deleting this question isn't gonna make a difference there. People will always find that one borderline question that "proves" their question is okay.
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 26, 2021 at 7:50

2 Answers 2

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Regarding SO guidelines of being on/off topic... I think there comes a point where using a little discretion is warranted. A question this popular, and clearly helpful to a huge number of users, should be kept for the sake of posterity. CLI related questions are common on SO, so whether it’s off-topic or just poorly formed is debatable anyway.

Using discretion could be considered unsteady ground by some, as the question inevitably arises: who gets to decide what's a worthy exception to this or that rule?

And the answer is: moderators. Clearly, mods feel that >500k views and a plethora of constructive dialogue is enough to keep it around. I would agree with them.

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    Are you arguing that just because is popular we should keep any off topic question? When does a question becomes popular?
    – Braiam
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:16
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    @Braiam I wouldn't necessarily deem this entirely off-topic... CLI questions are common on SO, as it relates to scripts and whatnot. The on/off topic aspect is debatable, which is why from a discretionary standpoint, it makes even more sense to keep it around. Oct 25, 2021 at 14:26
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    That would make on topic a sleuth of questions that have no relationship about programming: do you want to restart your service using systemd? initd? How about using yum to install firefox? Starting chrome with a empty profile? If you want to open that can of worms, be my guess, but at least ask your own meta question about it.
    – Braiam
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:32
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    "CLI related question are common on SO, so whether it's off-topic or just poorly formed is debatable anyways". No, that's simply not true. A question being about a tool that runs in the command line does not mean it's related to a practical programming issue, or even that's "debatable if it's off-topic or poorly formed".
    – yivi
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:34
  • @yivi I'm with you... I mean, I've been involved in many questions relating to babel/webpack, or yarn/npm, that have had nothing to do with actual programming, and they weren't labeled off-topic. To your point; babel/webpack are programming related tools. The use of FTP is broad in scope, obviously... And the question lacks any real context. But in a general sense, yes; FTP is off-topic. Oct 25, 2021 at 15:08
  • You seem to argue that because we don't have enough close votes to properly address off topic questions elsewhere that's somehow saying that is on topic on SO. We get 6k (I think) questions per day. There isn't just enough people going around closing those questions. Obviously some (many?) fall through the cracks.
    – Braiam
    Oct 25, 2021 at 17:20
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    @Braiam No.. That's not what I'm arguing. I was actually supporting yivi's contention that being a command line tool does not somehow implicitly make it potentially (or debatably) programming related. Which also supports your comment about the yum CLI. However, because the post in question lacks any real context, and because ftp in linux could be used in such a vast array of scenarios (including one that could be programming related, such as some form of ftp automation), and because the true purpose here is to catalog helpful content, I think there's enough gray area to warrant an exception. Oct 25, 2021 at 17:34
  • If a question lacks context to determine whenever is programming or not (this question do not!) then it's unclear question. If we allow any question because it argurably a programmer would need that information in the process of software development, we wouldn't have deleted programming on a boat. Helpful content has never, and will never, be a criteria for deletion. Value on the other hand is.
    – Braiam
    Oct 25, 2021 at 19:38
  • Not any question; that's where the discretion would come in :) Oct 25, 2021 at 19:44
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    I still think that keeping this question in particular (and hundreds of other old, off-topic ones) is doing more harm than good. As I mentioned in the comment to Dalija's answer below there's a constant influx of questions (often of first-time posters) similar to the one Braiam pointed out above, and I'm fairly certain that it's exactly having this sort of old cruft that puts the onus of keeping them in line on people who still care about the whole "on topic" thing. If the top hit in google for "recursive ftp" wasn't Stack Overflow but Unix & Linux things might be different.
    – tink
    Oct 27, 2021 at 0:47
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    @tink I wouldn't expect your mind to be changed... I think we're looking at a dilemma created by conflicting outlooks: the purist vs the utilitarian. An endless saga, no doubt. Oct 27, 2021 at 13:39
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    @silencedogood - Heh. That is an interesting choice of words: who's who, though? I can see both of those matching my plea to get rid of cuft. "purist" in that it gets rid of off-topic stuff, "utilitarian" in that it reduces the efforts I (have to?) put into cleaning up daily messes.
    – tink
    Oct 27, 2021 at 16:43
  • @tink The utilitarian doctrine adheres to the principle that an idea is right insofar as it promotes happiness, and that the greatest happiness of the greatest number of the community should be the guiding principle of conduct. The fact that your stance may reduce the efforts needed to complete your daily tasks does not grant you access into that club, and is in fact more akin to individualism. Your definitely the purist, and a convincing adherent to boot! :-) Oct 27, 2021 at 17:46
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    @silencedogood; why, thank you, kind person. :). In that case we (stackexchange?) should maybe get rid of the rules around what's on topic, widen them to "things with a historical precedent are on-topic" ... my experience as parent suggests that making rules you can't/won't enforce is pointless. As it stands I'm feeling overwhelmed daily by the influx of off-topic posts, and I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling like that. And still so many slip through, which pop up when a new poster points at something that got asked only months ago and wasn't closed. How about a "cake recipe" tag? ;)
    – tink
    Oct 27, 2021 at 18:35
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Off topic questions should be deleted, especially if answers exist on other sites.

Not deleting off topic questions actively harms Stack Overflow, because it drives people to continue asking off topic and unsuitable questions here.

Whether question is closed, locked does not matter. New users don't know the difference, they just see highly voted question on Stack Overflow and they take it as example of acceptable question.

If the question is closed, or even worse locked, question is basically dead and it cannot be updated with new and better answers which can be harmful for people finding the question, as answers might no longer work or can have other more or less serious consequences.

Having such highly voted and visible off topic questions also hurts sites where the question is on topic, or where it also has active Q/A pair, because it drives people to Stack Overflow instead to that other site, decreasing its visibility and growth.


Ideally, we should be able to request migration of such questions to appropriate site, but migration and how well or not is serves its purpose is another story. Currently, migrating questions older than 60 days is if not impossible, then extremely rare.

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    I wholeheartedly agree with this statement (and it's in fact exactly this what triggered this post in the first place, I think; a discussion I kicked off in SO-CVR) ... but apparently the majority of people think that driving bad traffic is preferable to less traffic.
    – tink
    Oct 25, 2021 at 20:12
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    @tink That's not a good conclusion. There are other reasons for not wanting to delete that post. The statement that people that don't agree with you must agree with "bad traffic is preferable to less traffic" is false. Also, it risks alienating the people that don't agree with you.
    – Scratte
    Oct 25, 2021 at 20:45
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    @Scratte - then what do you call retaining "off topic high view count questions"? If this were posted today if would be closed in 10 minutes and roomba'd within 10 days. Why keep off-topic cruft around? I appreciate that we hold on to old posts that no one would try to implement these days when they had site related merit. "How to use ftp" doesn't.
    – tink
    Oct 25, 2021 at 20:54
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    "philosophically Historical Lock questions are deleted". It would be better of course if this philosophical concept was more prominently supported by system UI - something like pink background (like in regular deleted posts) would certainly make this point stronger
    – gnat
    Oct 25, 2021 at 22:08
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    You claim having this question on this site actively hurts this, and other sites. Can you back that up with numbers? Or a link to anyone using that question as an example why their question isn't off-topic? I'm seeing a lot of "Having this question here is bad for SO" comments, but I'm not seeing any actual examples that show any negative effect from having that question here...
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 26, 2021 at 7:03
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    And even if someone uses that question as an example why their question should be allowed, that's trivially resolved by: "SO's rules were quite different 13 years ago, your question is off-topic now. Please try <other SE site>".
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 26, 2021 at 7:05
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    @Cerbrus When someone uses that question as example and asks here is not the main problem. Problem is that people ask such questions on SO all the time because they think such questions are allowed. Locked, closed, it does not matter - new users don't realize what those things mean. Even if you have huge (current is not even huge) banner saying question is off topic, people still ask such questions because they see high vote count and don't think how they got it. I also thought that such questions don't hurt, but over the years I changed my mind because of all the evidence to the contrary. Oct 26, 2021 at 7:30
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    Maybe, I cannot quantify that evidence the way someone would like it, but we do have some evidence here on Meta people pointing to the old questions asking why they cannot ask such questions now. And for every user that asks there are many more that don't come to the Meta to complain. Oct 26, 2021 at 7:31
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    @Cerbrus Actively hurts other sites - If you Google "downloading a FTP directory recursively" SO question is first one listed. If users come to that question and find the answer here, then obviously it hurts other sites because traffic will not go there. Also people will not be aware that those other sites exist - if they are aware they wouldn't ask so many general computing questions here. Plain and simple. Oct 26, 2021 at 7:35
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    @Cerbrus Like I said commenting is not a problem, but moderating is. We have zillion questions in a CV queue that cannot be managed promptly. We have newly asked general computing questions that fly under the radar and are not closed promptly, if ever and nobody leaves the comment, because there is just too many of them. As long as we cannot stop the influx of such questions and we cannot successfully deal with them we have to use all other options even if it means nuking old off topic questions that have answers elsewhere. I wish we could migrate such questions, but we can't. Oct 26, 2021 at 8:12
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    @Cerbrus It is not useful because it exists in other places, migration only helps in preserving reputation to people that answered it here. From that aspect we can safely nuke it. Migration is layered problem. If we could migrate it, that would be the first step in preserving content, but then there is question of reputation, existing Q/A on other sites, moderating all that. I am not sure if such feature request would be received well at the moment. Oct 26, 2021 at 9:53
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    So, instead you prefer to just nuke it all... The lack of support for a good solution doesn't mean bad solutions are better.
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 26, 2021 at 12:32
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    @Cerbrus Again... the content exists in another place. That part stands regardless. Migration would only make it easier to solve complaints like yours with deleting content and for particular questions that are not already answered in other places. Oct 26, 2021 at 12:51
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    You'd be deleting user's contributions, rep, details that aren't in the other place... This is exactly why the historical lock exists. Something that's no longer on-topic, but that has indubitably been very valuable to the site in the past.
    – Cerbrus
    Oct 26, 2021 at 13:04
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    @Cerbrus that's trivially resolved by: "SO's rules were quite different 13 years ago, your question is off-topic now. Please try <other SE site>". ... the tag I spend most time on is linux. If I had the time and energy I (and had more than the 50 votes a day) I could happily spend all day fending of people asking off-topic questions. Particularly the ones who post their first questions - how do you think they found Stack Overflow, and what drives them to come here to ask the "wrong things"? I obviously have no metrics as I'm not an employee, but their common defence suggests examples.
    – tink
    Oct 26, 2021 at 20:36

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