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Why this question is unique (I think):

I’m not asking to discuss the potential removal of downvotes, but rather to discuss if the purpose of downvoting according to SO doesn’t match the actual application of the downvote system.

Why doesn’t it match the stated purpose?

I’ve seen this logic take precedent on most occasions:

“The purpose of downvotes is to rate the quality of the content so that it can be properly sorted among the millions of questions on this site for future use. If you ask low quality or poorly researched questions, people will downvote them so that the higher quality questions show up first.”

The reason this logic seems to fall short of the actual application is because downvotes don’t just affect the content; they also have a significant effect on the user. If the question asked by a user is simply poorer quality than another answer in the same category, does the user really deserve to be punished by a reduction in reputation points? Couldn’t we just downvote the question only, so as to maintain the proper indexing/ordering of quality content?

Then we have this logic, which is also prevalent:

“If you have a history of asking poor quality questions, you won't be able to ask as often until you improve said history.”

This seems to be a better argument IMO. However, I also feel that it falls short for a few reasons. If a user is asking poor questions, “punishment” isn’t necessarily the answer. Encouraging users to read the SO guidelines would be much more productive. As to users who are downright inappropriate, that’s what flags are for. SO users (especially recently) often lament the degradation of question quality on the site. I feel this is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy due to the way we handle low-quality questions from (especially inexperienced) users.

Spite Downvotes

Another arguable aspect of downvotes that has been discussed is spite-downvotes. On a site as community driven and involved as SO, emotions tend to fly. Passive aggression is common. I’ve seen and experienced the common case of getting downvoted without comment/explanation, right after another post/comment someone obviously took offense to.

I don’t feel this post will at all be received in a positive light. However, for the above reasons, I think it’s at least worth considering some revisions to when/if downvotes are appropriate or even allowed.

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  • 32
    The same goes for upvotes - they rate content, not the user. So do you also suggest to remove reputation gain from upvotes? (and since you mention "spite downvotes", what about "pity upvotes" for content that doesn't deserve them?) Oct 12, 2021 at 14:39
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    I tend to agree on this, but also, am not sure removing rep lost from receiving downvotes would have any real effect at all. It's just such a small amount already, and seeing your post at -1 stings regardless of rep lost
    – Kevin B
    Oct 12, 2021 at 14:41
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    Is the rep loss actually the thing that irks people? As far as I can tell, many people feel negative about someone disliking their content - that would still happen without the rep loss. Oct 12, 2021 at 14:42
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    Would that also affect the rep that downvoters pay for downvoting? By the logic of this post, downvoters get punished too. Oct 12, 2021 at 14:47
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    @JeanneDark And I thought about this. However, I feel it's not apples and apples. People can be rewarded with reputation, and "reprimanded" by teachable moments such as comments and suggestions. It's not required to be tit-for-tat. Oct 12, 2021 at 14:47
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    If you want to apply new logic to downvotes, you need apply it to upvotes. Downvotes are already treated as "lesser citizens" than upvotes by Stack Overflow, as they only give a change of 2 reputation, compared to the 10 that upvotes give. Considering the about of attention people give downvotes compared to upvotes, maybe it should be the other way round; upvotes give 2 reputation, and downvotes give -10. :)
    – Thom A
    Oct 12, 2021 at 14:49
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    eh, it wouldn't need to apply to upvotes. The scale is already uneven and making it more uneven has proven to have no effect (remember when question upvotes were worth only 5?)
    – Kevin B
    Oct 12, 2021 at 14:51
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    "does the user really deserve to be punished by a reduction in reputation points?" - they are not punished. Just as the voting system is meant to rank answers on the same page, rep is supposed to give an indication of users' contributions. If you contribute "bad" content that people doesn't find useful - then your rep should reflect that. Remember that the penalty for downvotes is so much smaller than the gain from upvotes so assuming you post "good" stuff and get a few downvotes here and there, you will barely feel the "punishment"
    – Tomerikoo
    Oct 12, 2021 at 14:51
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    "Encouraging users to read the SO guidelines would be much more productive" This is already being done by many people, just the fact is users don't read the guidelines... Oct 12, 2021 at 14:52
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    The problem is the use (and most likely the feeling of many users) of the word "punish". Voting is not a punishment - not for the content nor for the users. As I said in a previous comment, it is meant to sort answers according to their usefulness, and rank users according to the sum of usefulness of all their posts. The sooner people realize that, the less they will get "hurt"...
    – Tomerikoo
    Oct 12, 2021 at 15:01
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    "Encouraging users to read the SO guidelines would be much more productive." and how exactly would that work? Evidently people already ignore that. Questions that get closed have a link to relevant information and users still just re-post without any changes. The quality filter in the editor is also ignored by users. "suggestions and comments" that's not scalable. Do you want to post suggestions and comments to 1000 questions every day? Because if so you'd still miss another 4.7k questions that are posted daily. On average.
    – VLAZ
    Oct 12, 2021 at 15:02
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    "potential flags for poor quality will teach the user in a more productive way" that's just wishful thinking. We get people posting on Meta due to rightful closures on almost a daily basis. "potential hesitance in future participation" there are also many questions that just die in the water after being closed even though they are one small edit away from being answerable. But many question askers seem to just abandon them once closed.
    – VLAZ
    Oct 12, 2021 at 15:03
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    @silencedogood That's exactly my point. People should learn how the site works in order to avoid these bad feelings. There is not much we can do if people keep getting hurt and taking votes so personal. That's the foundation of the site...
    – Tomerikoo
    Oct 12, 2021 at 15:04
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    And just as no one brought this up I'll give you a small example. Let's assume we remove the -2 for downvotes. Now we have a user with 5 upvotes and 20 downvotes. Do you think it makes sense that this user will have a higher rep (and thus potentially more access to privileges) than a user with 4 upvotes and no downvotes at all?
    – Tomerikoo
    Oct 12, 2021 at 15:11
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    @KevinB It probably wasn't clear but I meant that as a toy example across all user's posts, not a single post. The numbers can be expanded to match actual circumctances, but the core idea is that you can have a user that racked some upvotes but mostly gains a lot of downvotes and that wouldn't be reflected at all in their rep which reflects their contribution or privileges that they have
    – Tomerikoo
    Oct 12, 2021 at 15:17

3 Answers 3

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I have to disagree with this proposal.

The rep loss of downvotes is not a "significant effect"; it is already suppressed by a factor of 5 compared to upvotes.

If rep loss is bad because it is perceived as "punishment" – so are many things related to downvotes. Did a downvote push your answer from the top place? Punishment. Did a downvote destroy a perfect upvote score? Punishment. Did a downvote let you know people dislike what you wrote? Punishment.

Rating content negatively does imply a negative message to the content creator. We cannot get rid of that. Singling out rep loss will not remove the negative message that is inherent to downvotes.


Since the meta-Q talks mostly about the purpose of downvotes, I would like to shed light on the purpose of reputation:

So what is reputation?

Reputation is a rough measurement of how much the community trusts you; […]

Contributors that consistently provide content that is worth downvoting are not, in my book, as trustworthy as those who do not. A loss of reputation seems justified and true to the purpose.

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I clearly don't agree.

Without reputation loss, the rep system will not work. People will make content, bad or good it doesn't matter because they could not lose reputation.

With downvote, we said to the author that it's bad content. And if he remove it, it will get back reputation. So the message is clear:

Don't make bad content. If you did, remove, that's better for everyone.

I know that people don't know/understand this system because they don't read tour or rules. And that those people that will mostly create bad content AND be punished with this system (by can no longer post question/answer).

This promote good content. And personnally, such as I know that I can win and lose rep, when I see "+10" I'm more happy that if there wasn't -2 downvote. The risk make reputation more satifying when you win it (even +1).

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I think I mostly agree with you here, but wanted to expand on it a bit and cover a few areas that I think you missed that makes me disagree with moving forward without more thought/data.

Downvotes are for rating content. The loss of rep is there to encourage users to do something about it. Is it effective at doing that?

  1. When the content is removed, the rep lost from downvotes (both for the user who received it, and the user who cast the downvote in the case of answers) is returned. You could look at this as an incentive to the both the downvoter and the owner of the post to clean up low quality content by deleting it. I'm not sure whether or not this actually affects the rate of deletion (the voters who can vote to delete wouldn't care about the rep cost anyway).
  2. On the concern of needing an equal change to upvotes to compensate for a change like this, I don't think such an equal change would be necessary. It's an extremely minor amount of rep that often gets refunded anyway.
  3. With regard to spite downvotes... I don't think we should be making design decisions based on this at all if it isn't meant to prevent them from occurring. Removing the rep lost doesn't mitigate the damage done by giving an incorrect signal (and very well could even increase spiteful downvoting)
  4. If we were to remove the -2 from being downvoted, it would follow that we should also remove the rep cost for downvoting. If there was no longer a negative rep hit for casting a downvote or for receiving a downvote, maybe people would be more willing to downvote problematic content so that the roomba can do it's job. I know there's people out there who don't downvote because they don't want to "hurt" the user. Would this in any way affect their usage of votes? I wouldn't expect it to have a significant impact.

The TLDR here is I'm not sure this would actually improve anything. It could increase the number of downvotes cast, which is a metric the staff doesn't seem too keen on increasing. It could reduce the number of complaints we get on meta over downvoting, but I'd hazard a guess that it wouldn't. It wouldn't quell the fears of users who fear being downvoted, because they can still be downvoted.

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    If the conclusion ultimately ends up being removing it would have no impact, then removing it would be the clear choice as it would remove at least a small amount of friction that served no meaningful purpose anyway. but again, I don't think we have the data to make such a claim yet.
    – Kevin B
    Oct 12, 2021 at 16:22

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