48

A few years ago I built a little tool which guided beginners through constructing a question with an MCVE in Python. I commented on a few poor questions suggesting that they use it. Then I got a moderator message:

We noticed that a substantial proportion of your comments seem to exist only to promote your product.

Be careful, because the community frowns on overt self-promotion and tends to vote it down and flag it as spam. So, please refrain from this behavior in the future.

I replied but got no further response. Not knowing what to do and feeling disillusioned about the general idea, I just dropped the whole thing.

Now as part of a larger project I've built a better version and I want to do things right this time.

Briefly, here's what the question wizard does:

  • Ensures that the user provides complete code by actually running it.
  • Generates a question with code, output, and expected output, all correctly formatted.
  • Provides built-in debuggers, linting, and enhanced tracebacks to help users find the problem themselves.
  • Includes an enhanced traceback (when there's an error) in the output in the generated question, showing the values of variables and simple expressions.
  • Shows how to replace uses of input() (reading from stdin) with literals so that rerunning the code and reproducing the problem is easier for everyone.
  • Provides general advice and resources.

My questions are:

  1. Is the wizard itself appropriate for SO? Does it go against some principle of the site? Is there anything I need to change to make it acceptable?
  2. Is it appropriate for me to recommend the wizard in comments on questions, or will that be considered spam again? Is there an appropriate 'non-spammy' way to phrase comments recommending the wizard? To be clear, this is my project so I'm obviously not impartial, but I get no financial benefit from it and I don't plan to. The benefits to me are basically just self-esteem and reputation.
  3. Can people other than myself recommend it? Does anyone think they would want to recommend it sometimes?
  4. Can SO officially link to it the way this page links to the reprex package?
16
  • 30
    "the community frowns on overt self-promotion and tends to vote it down and flag it as spam" - That's about the most garbage response I've ever seen from a mod. You're doing it in comments, you can't downvote or spam flag comments. Commented Sep 26, 2021 at 16:05
  • 8
    I tried a simple broken factorial program to see what'd happen. Some thoughts: I like everything going on on the left hand side. It caught some simple mistakes (e.g. no output). It's really nice to head those off at the pass. The overall workflow wasn't entirely intuitive: that you keep hitting "Run" to get from stage to stage. It looks like a REPL site and those don't work like that. A separate "Next" button might help there. Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 3:14
  • 3
    ...I found the bottom right quadrant confusing. I had a multi-line exception message and I have to admit I couldn't figure out what all the tables and colors were showing me. I thought it was the question that was being generated... but no, it wasn't that. I eventually figured out it's a prettified version of Python's error messages. I found the plain text version on the left easier to read cause it's familiar. I respect the work you put into the fancy version and I'm sad that it just confused me. Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 3:15
  • 10
    You should definitely mention that this is not the official question wizard and using it is entirely optional. On the other hand, great idea, thanks for the effort. Maybe the community could in general construct a better question wizard. For example, could you provide a separate (re)search section in the wizard that must have at least some content (and guidance)? Most new questions simply do not show any research and are likely duplicates and I hope that more explicitly requiring research could improve the situation. Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 8:59
  • 5
    How is this a question wizard, where do I state the question? It seems more like a Python code playground.
    – user692942
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 9:02
  • 5
    The difficulty here is going to be to contain yourself. Posting it every chance you get is definitely not going to go down well, so when do you post it and when do you not? There is no standard measure for it.
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 9:18
  • 3
    did you consider promoting it with community-ads?
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 13:10
  • @JohnKugelman thanks for the feedback. I responded to part of it in github.com/alexmojaki/futurecoder/issues/…, I think that would be a better place to discuss. Sorry to hear the traceback was confusing. It's meant for beginners who seem to blank out when they see the standard traceback, I think it just seems like an intimidating wall of text to them.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 13:31
  • 1
    @Trilarion thanks for the feedback. I've put your point in github.com/alexmojaki/futurecoder/issues/… for potential further discussion. Would be happy to hear ideas from you or anyone else here about ways to make something useful for other kinds of questions.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 13:35
  • 1
    @Gimby when the question has significant problems that it wouldn't have if it had gone through the wizard. Typically the kind of question where I would comment with the [mcve] link.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 13:40
  • 2
    @gnat I didn't know about those, thanks. Will investigate.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 13:41
  • 1
    Great initiative! What was the (approximate) (estimated) success rate of getting the users to actually use it (both in relative (percentage) and absolute terms)? Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 7:29
  • 2
    Maybe you should also consider registering it on https://stackapps.com/ ?
    – Zilog80
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 9:22
  • 3
    I don't think trying to improve the site tools as a volunteer is particularly appreciated by the company. They already did an experiment with a wizard, which was cancelled in favour for some new question page layout. So I'd rather reach out to the open source, non-profit Q&A communities and offer to design a wizard there, or to integrate your current work in their site. Except at least Codidact already got a wizard... if you are curious to compare it with yours, it's found at meta.codidact.com/tour. It's for generic Q&A though and not specifically for a programming site.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 10:15
  • 1
    I think this is really neat. However..my brain has basically been trained that when I see comments like "Hey I made a tool to do this check out the link ..." I (at least mentally) flag them. Not commenting to discourage you..but to perhaps explain the flags.
    – rob
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 13:38

3 Answers 3

40

First, the fact that the new version is a web app is much better, in my opinion, and is likely to receive less resistance because you're not asking users to download and install some tool.

  1. Is the wizard itself appropriate for SO? Does it go against some principle of the site? Is there anything I need to change to make it acceptable?

I didn't play with it much but based on the couple of tests I did, it seems to suggest a good format for asking a debugging question on Stack Overflow. That's a good thing. One remark: you might want to make it clear that the "Run" button is used a first step towards constructing the question because, at first glance, it looks like just an online fiddle.

  1. Is it appropriate for me to recommend the wizard in comments on questions, or will that be considered spam again? Is there an appropriate 'non-spammy' way to phrase comments recommending the wizard?

In my opinion, it's fine to recommend it when the situation warrants it. Just try to always disclose that you're the author of the tool. There's really not much else you can do to make it "non-spammy". As long as you don't post the same comment on almost every python question and just pick the ones where you genuinely think that your tool will be helpful, you should be fine (I think). It will probably still be frowned upon by some users though; that's inevitable.

  1. Can people other than myself recommend it?

I don't see why not. If other users find it useful, it can work like other 3rd-party resources (e.g., idownvotedbecau.se, xyproblem.info, etc).

3
  • 1
    Why did you remove your answer to point 4? It looked just fine to me.
    – cigien
    Commented Sep 26, 2021 at 18:22
  • @cigien I initially misunderstood the question. I thought the OP wanted the link to their tool to be used as a magic link for comments. That's why I said it's highly unlikely.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Sep 26, 2021 at 18:33
  • 1
    Ah, I see. It seems the OP is asking if their tool can be linked from the mre page though, so your answer is very likely still accurate :)
    – cigien
    Commented Sep 26, 2021 at 18:42
6

First of all, I really like the initiative. No doubt about that.

The biggest problem here is that your product indeed is a 3rd party tool. What are the likelihood that a user will use it the next time? It's probably very small. For that to happen, a few things must be fulfilled.

  • They need to ask one more question. Most questions are from first time users.
  • They need to remember your advice. Most will not.
  • If they remember your advice, they also need to find the link again by searching through their old questions (unlikely) unless they have bookmarked it (unlikely)

So while I don't see anything wrong with posting a link to this, I unfortunately have to say that it probably will not be as valuable as one would hope.

3
  • 3
    What is the answer to this question then? It's not appropriate to recommend 3rd party tools because it's unlikely they will have much impact? Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 10:42
  • 3
    @Trilarion Depends. I think the classic "How to debug small programs" is more helpful in general. But well, I would not say that it's not "ok" to post these things.
    – klutt
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 11:02
  • 3
    @klutt thanks, these are good points. I hope that (1) even without remembering the specifics, they gain some sense of the difference between a good question and a bad question, particularly complete runnable code, and (2) the site itself is seen as useful with its debuggers and such, so they might use or remember it for things other than the question wizard.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 13:44
5

So, I just came across one of these comments...

Try using this tool I wrote to improve your question, particularly the formatting: futurecoder.io/course/#question It might also help you solve the problem. You can import pandas, just be ready to wait a bit after clicking 'Run' while it downloads.
-- Comment by Alex Hall

...and frankly I find it inappropriate.

Yes, your tool is awesome. Yes, it pinpointed the error. Yes, it pinpointed the next error as well.

No, I don't think such a canned comment – mentioning a massive library not even relevant – will help people that are already way out of their depth. No, I don't think repeating and insisting will help more. No, I don't think promoting the course in the end is good style.

Now that's one interaction, and I certainly don't want to claim all of them go south like this. But there are a lot of questions where one could (maybe even should!) advertise that wizard, and sheer mass will create many such "not good" interactions.


  1. Is the wizard itself appropriate for SO? Does it go against some principle of the site? Is there anything I need to change to make it acceptable?

I don't think in its current shape the wizard is appropriate to recommend. It's a very nice tool, but it still has seriously rough edges; it took me a while to figure out how to use it, and I don't think most people that need it will fare well with it.
Most critically, it seems to solve only the aspect of getting the code to run. It is a some-specific-MRE-problem-wizard, not a question-wizard.

  1. Is it appropriate for me to recommend the wizard in comments on questions, or will that be considered spam again?[…]
  2. Can people other than myself recommend it?[…]

Please no. Question comments just are not the place for this – by the time a question hits Stack Overflow, it is usually too late to change it to that other issue revealed after fixing this, that, and those errors. At best, it might help with some other hypothetical future question.

It might be well-intended promotion of a product for a good cause, but it is still promotion of a product. Putting that in question comments at large scale just derails things.

  1. Can SO officially link to it the way this page links to the reprex package?

I don't think that is comparable. The reprex package is linked because that is where the moniker reprex comes from.


All that said, this is not intended to shoot down the tool but to disagree with the way of promoting it. The promotion itself is basically a kind of "How to create a MRE" help and could well live alongside other recommendations to that effect:

9
  • 1
    (1) The pandas bit certainly shouldn't be there, that was a stupid, unusual mistake. (2) This is the only time I've repeated the recommendation or mentioned the course. That's not the goal. Is there anything bad about the first comment apart from the pandas bit? (3) I stayed and helped this person through multiple errors after everyone else left. I don't think it's fair to say things went south.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 11:32
  • (4) The problem was not the promotion. If I had nothing to promote, it would still have come down to me explaining the M in MRE, that the question code doesn't need to contain the whole homework assignment (e.g. input()), and that the asker's problems are bigger than this assignment and they need to go through some tutorial from the beginning. (5) Of course if I do something many times it will sometimes go badly, but if it helps most other times, isn't it worth it?
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 11:33
  • (6) Yes, it needs work, but getting feedback from real users is essential. For example, based on this case I'm going to add a more thorough explanation about replacing input() in code. (7) As with others, I'm happy to hear your ideas on how to improve the UI and make it useful for other kinds of questions. I'm struggling to see how I can offer significant value outside MRE style problems. But I don't see why it has to. Why is it bad that it only targets a specific kind of problem?
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 11:34
  • 1
    (8) Why is it too late to use the tool after posting to SO? If it helps them fix one or several issues, isn't that good? Besides, a question needing an MRE doesn't imply such a chain of issues, just a need to explain one problem better. If it's too late to link to the wizard, why isn't it too late to link to the MRE page? (9) In what sense can the wizard 'live alongside' the questions you link to? Is linking to those posts in comments somehow different?
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 11:35
  • 1
    I hope there is no need for me to point out that comments are not appropriate to discuss 9 (!) speed dumped rebuttals either. Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 11:41
  • (a) I think these are important points and it's fair for me to make them whether or not you respond. I don't see what my alternative is. (b) Many of these points don't prompt a response at all. (c) One even links to a more appropriate place for longer discussion. (d) You could edit responses into your answer. (e) Choosing one of my points/questions that you find most important and responding to only that would still be very valuable. I'm not forcing you to respond to everything or even anything. (f) Speed dumped? I took my time and wrote everything in a separate editor, I don't see an issue.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 11:53
  • 1
    1) Yes. 2) It's not actionable, doesn't even work for me (Safari) directly. 3) I do think it's fair to say the promotion went south. 4) Yes the problem was the promotion. Explaining requirements of this site and promoting a tool are two different things. See 3). 5) I am not convinced that it helps most other times. 6) I don't see how "but I need feedback" is an excuse for this anymore than for other inappropriate topics. 7.1) I can't say you seem to be taking my feedback constructively. 7.2) I don't think you can. 7.3) Because it is described as a question wizard. […] Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 11:55
  • 1
    […] 8) Because it turns the question into a chameleon question. 9) The point was that a general collection of MRE helps/tools/guides on Meta seems more appropriate than promoting a specific tool. Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 12:05
  • 1
    (2) Sounds like I should take Safari more seriously. (3/4/9) I think we fundamentally disagree about promotion being inherently bad. I don't see the relevance or negative impact here. This is my way of explaining to people how to make an MRE. I don't see this as truly different from me linking to a blog post I wrote, or that someone else wrote, or a meta question or help article. It already links to some help articles and I can add more, e.g. I can link to the pandas MRE guide when someone imports pandas. That would make it a collection as you say. (7.3) You want me to change the title?
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 12:14

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .