-25

What's not working well and why:

  1. New users very, very, very seldom understand the difference between a good, clear, unique, on-topic question and a question that should be closed. In fact, we have high frequency volunteers with hundreds of thousands of rep who habitually answer questions that should be closed.
  2. New users are compelled to answer "quickly" because they fear that other volunteers will provide the same advice faster. Couple this with the fact that new contributors are inexperienced with the formatting tools in the post editor and how to answer, then you can understand why many of these posts are some of the lowest quality contributions site-wide. Competing for speed is not conducive to building an awesome repository of knowledge. A FGITW culture actually damages the ultimate goal.
  3. Users with less than 15 reputation simply do not have the ability to flag the closure of a question that should be closed. So of course they are blissfully unaware of the importance of curating good content! I mean, users don't even get to see when there are close votes on a question until they reach 250 rep, so I find myself commenting things like Off-topic: Typo to try to ward off not-yet-posted answers while additional close votes are garnered. And finally, users don't unlock the close vote privilege until they reach 3000 rep points!

Proposal: Impose answer blocking on inexperienced answerers and answerers with a glaring track record of answering questions that should be closed instead.

The details:

  • Answer blocking only ever involves the freshest posted questions -- posted within the last 4 hours. Blocking never prohibits users from answering all questions on the site.
  • If a user has fewer than 5 posted answers, they are deemed too inexperienced to be trusted to differentiate between good and bad questions.
  • If 60% or more of a user's most recent answers have been on closed questions, the block is imposed and a warning box will be presented which explains the block and lists the closed pages.
  • There are three ranges of "recent answers" being checked. The most recent 5, 10 and 20 answers. This should be sufficient in targeting users with indubitably unwanted contributions.

I'll cherry-pick some content from the new user privilege page which shares the exact purpose of this proposal:

[...]we must take some precautions to ensure that the [...] user doesn't ruin the experience for everyone else.

What I am proposing is the second evolution of this meta question which has many up and down votes and a plethora of comments that clearly didn't understand the mechanics of how the proposal is designed to work.

This proposal is designed to:

  1. give inexperienced contributors (users with fewer than 5 answers) time to post well-crafted answers to good, vetted questions
  2. allow new users the ability to remove this restriction through good posting behaviors even without earning a single upvote or green tick
  3. uncouple privileges from rep -- which has proven to be a somewhat unreliable metric
  4. reduce the likelihood of low-quality answers gaining upvotes (when the contributor is deemed untrusted and the block is imposed) -- this will allow curators to better manage/curate unhelpful content on old questions and help the Roomba to have an easier time of automatically cleaning up new unwanted questions.
  5. groom the community to pause and consider the appropriateness of a question before they spray an answer on the page
  6. equally impact all users from 1 rep to >1,000,000 rep and is completely ignorant of quality/volume of their posted questions
  7. be effective yet fair on contributors -- even contributors that post tens of answers in a short period of time and the page closures don't come until later
  8. signal contributors that they might potentially:
    • recalibrate their view of what a good/on-topic question is or
    • put more effort into finding duplicates before answering or
    • delete an answer to a closed question (a path to removing the block) or
    • vote to reopen a question that was inappropriately closed (a path to removing the block) or
    • edit an unclear question to make it clear/on-topic (a path to removing the block)
  9. influence answerers to care about questions that they answer, by editing it into the the best possible shape before they move on so that it doesn't risk being closed
  10. spare me from asking answerers to close bad questions instead of answering them -- the system will spell this out where truly necessary

One of the concerns from the earlier linked meta page asked if this proposal would simply shift the rubbish from new pages to old pages and make curation harder to do. To this I say no. This proposal will get answerers to start digging through historic content and fill knowledge gaps. If a necropost is not unique or valuable, then it will not generate any upvotes from the Upvote Pixies (users who sprinkle upvotes on the freshest of new questions) and this will make it much easier for human curators to downvote and delete the unwanted content.

If you have already lit up your torch and grabbed your pitchfork, stop and consider how often this block will actually be imposed. After a user has 5 or more posted answers, it should be very hard to trigger this block if they are doing the right thing. I am personally curious if a SEDE query can be crafted which shows a snapshot of how many users would be blocked by the described rules. I also wonder if certain language tags are more likely than others to trigger an answer block because of rampant bad answering and/or a collection of SMEs that do a lot of closing. This proposal is intentionally revolutionary and some people might find it a little risky/scary. I would be very happy to see it given a chance for a month or so and see how the community is impacted.


I've made a toy for you to play with!
(see collapsed snippet for demo)

I have created a basic JavaScript demonstration to show the effects of posting answers, then as questions are closed or as answers are deleted, an account's percentage of answers on open/closed questions can be recalculated.

Click the + button five or more times to simulate "posted answers". Change the radio buttons to simulate the open/closed status of the question answered. Click the - button to demonstrate how the deletion of a question/answer can potentially impose/remove the answer block. I recommend using the StackSnippet in full screen mode. Screenshot of a user being blocked because of too many answers on closed pages.

Demonstration:

$(document).on('click', '.add', function() {
  let mostRecentAnswer = $('#summary').prev(),
      id = !mostRecentAnswer.length ? 1 : 1 + mostRecentAnswer.data('id');
  $('#summary').before(
    '<tr data-id=' + id + '>'
      + '<td><input type="button" class="del" value="-"></td>'
      + '<td>'
        + '<label for="open' + id + '"><input type="radio" id="open' + id + '" name="status' + id + '" checked> Open</label>'
        + '<label for="closed' + id + '"><input type="radio" id="closed' + id + '" name="status' + id + '"> Closed</label>'
      + '</td>'
      + '<td class="newest5 hide"></td>'
      + '<td class="newest10 hide"></td>'
      + '<td class="newest20 hide"></td>'
    + '</tr>'
  );
  handleNewest();
});
$(document).on('click', '.del', function() {
  $(this).closest('tr').remove();
  handleNewest();
});
$(document).on('change', '[type="radio"]', function() {
  handleNewest();
});
function handleNewest() {
  let totalAnswers = $('#demo tr[data-id]').length;
  if (totalAnswers < 5) {
    $('#outcome').html('<b class="red">Please post carefully constructed and educational answers to questions which are at least 4 hours old -- it is presumed that this community has had ample to time to vet these new questions as clear, complete, unique and on-topic.</b>');
    return;
  }
  $('#outcome').html('More than 40% of your recent answers have been on open questions which the community has deemed to be a good fit for our repository of knowledge.');
  [5, 10, 20].forEach(function(group) {
    $('td[class^="newest' + group + '"]').addClass('hide').removeClass('groupStart groupEnd');
    if (totalAnswers >= group) {
      let lastCount = group - 1,
          sumOpen = 0,
          row = $('#summary').prev(),
          groupCell;
      for (let i = 0; i < group; ++i) {
        sumOpen += $('td label input[id^="open"]:checked', row).length;
        groupCell = $('td[class^="newest' + group + '"]', row);
        groupCell.removeClass('hide');
        if (!i) {
          groupCell.addClass('groupEnd');
        } else if (i === lastCount) {
          groupCell.addClass('groupStart');
        }
        row = row.prev();
      }
      let percent = Math.round(sumOpen / group * 100);
      $('#newest' + group + 'Total').html(percent).toggleClass('red', percent <= 40);
        $('td[class^="newest' + group + '"]:not(.hide)').toggleClass('redBG', percent <= 40);
        if (percent <= 40) {
          $('#outcome').html('<b  class="red">' + (100 - percent) + '% of your last ' + group + ' answers have been on closed pages. Please take more care to only post answers to clear, complete, unique, on-topic questions.</b>');
        }
      }
    });
  }
#demo { border-spacing: 0; }
.newest5:not(.hide), .newest10:not(.hide), .newest20:not(.hide) { border-right: 1px solid black; min-width: 30px; }
.groupStart { border-top-right-radius: 30px; }
.groupEnd { border-bottom-right-radius: 30px; }
#summaryLabel { text-align: right; }
#[id$="Total"]:after { content: '%'; }
.red { color: red; }
.newest5.redBG:not(.hide), .newest10.redBG:not(.hide), .newest20.redBG:not(.hide) { background-color: red; }
<script src="https://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/jquery/3.3.1/jquery.min.js"></script>
<table id="demo">
  <tr id="summary">
    <td><input type="button" class="add" value="+"></td>
    <td id="summaryLabel">Open Percent:</td>
    <td id="newest5Total"></td>
    <td id="newest10Total"></td>
    <td id="newest20Total"></td>
  </tr>
</table>
<h2 id="outcome"></h2>

Self-answers should be excluded from this blocking mechanism. Self-answered questions are not typically rushed or low-quality. In my experience, these usually meaningful contributions and are not worth blocking by default. It would be counter-productive to prevent users from instantly self-answering if they have something important to share.

63
  • 19
    "New users are compelled to answer "quickly" because they fear that other volunteers will provide the same advice faster." - Honestly I'm convinced that's more of an old user problem Aug 15, 2021 at 9:03
  • 4
    We already have an Answer-ban.
    – Scratte
    Aug 15, 2021 at 9:18
  • 5
    We already throttle users who have a record of providing poor quality questions or answers. See meta.stackexchange.com/questions/164899/… Aug 15, 2021 at 9:19
  • 7
    @RobertLongson The rate limit on answers that you linked makes no attempt to do the things that my proposal aims to do. Aug 15, 2021 at 9:27
  • 4
    Well the question ban is secret so who's to say it's not very similar to what you're proposing. The point is why is what you're suggesting better than what's already implemented? Aug 15, 2021 at 9:28
  • 7
    I am absolutely sure that there is an extreme lack of awareness in new and veteran users regarding the importance of curation and deciding whether or not to answer a question. I am 5xdupe hammering common questions (questions that have at least 5 duplicates and I link them explicitly) every day -- and yet we still have new users and users >100k who are posting answers to these mega-duplicate questions. Also, I am not talking about users being able to ask questions -- I am talking about locking users from answering fresh questions. Aug 15, 2021 at 9:30
  • 15
    @user000001 isn't the abysmal answer rate because we get a flood of bad questions that we literally cannot stem the tide of? That does have an effect of the good questions also being occasionally overlooked.
    – VLAZ
    Aug 15, 2021 at 9:38
  • 6
    Doesn't that just make it much harder for a new good answerer to get into the game? And favour old answerers? I mean you can have 20K Answers in total and 25% on closed post, and still get to post quick FGITW Answers with your proposal, no?
    – Scratte
    Aug 15, 2021 at 11:25
  • 6
    The solution is pretty simple to fight this: downvote, downvote and downvote again. Close vote, delete vote and so on. The users you are talking about are here for the Rep, if you downvote their answers they will delete it (they got afraid of the -2) Aug 15, 2021 at 14:47
  • 4
    close question and delete them. You can never ever fight against users who want to spam the site with the same answers or bad answers because the system is designed to allow them to do so. The only way to fight this is to close questions and later delete them. We need to invite people to delete more and more questions especially the million duplicates that Roomba won't get them. Aug 15, 2021 at 14:56
  • 6
    @mickmackusa I don't see the difference between any of those labels. Brevity isn't an excuse. You're trying to label them over in "that group of unwanteds". You don't seem to have any data to even support your "findings", and make even further claims about "those users". I've seen curators undermine good editing and good posting. Do you really think labeling curators by whatever I can think of for brevity is going to help anything? And the latest comment is also uncalled for. The "you're either with me or you don't care about the site"-type argument is not valid.
    – Scratte
    Aug 15, 2021 at 22:36
  • 7
    Again a post which heavily discriminates new users. Stop - doing - that. Your post very much applies to the entire user base, not just new users. I'd actually speak for new users because they are basically making mistakes, there is no excuse for the chunk of people whom willingly treat this site like a helpdesk.
    – Gimby
    Aug 16, 2021 at 8:21
  • 4
    You may think it scales, but is does not. You still have issue with high reputation FGITW users that answer 20+ questions daily, where most of the questions they answer will never be closed. Your proposal will only selectively prevent some users from answering, creating even more dissatisfaction and frown upon curators and as the end result very little will be accomplished. Solving original problem, low quality questions is the only way. We could add more warnings before users post their answers, hoping that at least some will pay attention, but more drastic measures will not do any good. Aug 16, 2021 at 13:33
  • 5
    The entire post is situational. Your proposal has assumptions that cannot be verified, yet you seem to claim that it would work. "they will be inclined to self-delete their answer".. that's just an assumption.
    – Scratte
    Aug 16, 2021 at 13:54
  • 7
    Let me put it this way, the problem being discussed here is in reality a symptom of a bigger problem: people posting duplicate / bad questions. Why insist on treating the symptoms? Focus on the real problem: downvote, close, delete the question and move on, do you really believe this 4 hour barrier would dissuade users who answer such questions? This solution in reality is only problematic for new users, for the other people who regularly post such answers it really won't stop them. Aug 16, 2021 at 14:30

4 Answers 4

30

I like the idea of checking the % of answers to closed questions.

But I'm strongly opposed to stopping users with <5 answers from answering questions newer than 4 hours. I believe this will scare away a lot of potential contributors, including potentially good contributors. We must assume users to be innocent until proven guilty.

Imagine this:

  • You come to the site with years of programming experience, and want to share this experience.
  • You see a challenging niche question that you can answer.
  • The system tells you to wait 4 hours before answering.

If this happened to me, I'd think twice if I really want to stay or not.

11
  • 3
    No, as I said in my question, SO already has safeguards against allowing comment from new users -- this helps to reduce noise. My proposal takes the exact same stance EXCEPT it is not dependent on rep gains. Waiting 4 hours is nothing. Waiting to hope to accumulate enough rep to unlock privileges -- that takes far longer. We can even offer a quick filter on questions for new users so that they only see non-fresh questions. Aug 15, 2021 at 11:33
  • 1
    I'm not downvoting your answer though. If I had to remove the blocker from new users to get this proposal through, I would do so happily. However, allowing new users to post on the freshest questions IS one of the major problems that I want to address. Aug 15, 2021 at 11:37
  • 9
    @mickmackusa Currently the core functionality (asking and answering) is available to all users regardless of rep (unlike ancillary stuff like comments and flags), and I'd keep it this way. "Waiting 4 hours is nothing." Maybe, but it's yet another deterrent, even if a minor one. I sometimes try to pitch the idea of contributing to SO to my friends and colleagues and it rarely works. This would make it even harder. Aug 15, 2021 at 11:41
  • 2
    Any system that cares about quality will need to limit the freedoms of its contributors to some degree. My proposal is the best idea that I can come up with to help combat the rampant and growing mess that curators are struggling to keep up with. If someone else has a better way to stop people posting answers to questions that should be closed, I'm all ears. Honestly, I'm tired of reminding people to close closable questions -- especially people with hammers. Aug 15, 2021 at 12:03
  • 7
    "We must assume users to be innocent until proven guilty." Seeing how even some of the most basic privileges must be earned on SO – I think we don't assume users to be innocent. Aug 15, 2021 at 12:32
  • 1
    everybody is encouraged to contribute and it is for new users impossible to get high scores, also now a days you don't get upvotes like there use to be4, even good answers get onoly 1 or two upvotes, but easily a lot of downbvotes
    – nbk
    Aug 15, 2021 at 13:38
  • 1
    @nbk the regex tag would love to disagree.
    – Braiam
    Aug 15, 2021 at 13:41
  • 1
    @nbk The C++ tag would also like to disagree. I heard we're commonly known as a rather obnoxious bunch, but my colleague rose from 0 to ~4k in ~3 months. Aug 15, 2021 at 14:07
  • 2
    @HolyBlackCat yes there are tags that get more upvotes than others. so basically you can't compare c++ with mysql as a genral ban blockadeis not possible
    – nbk
    Aug 15, 2021 at 15:01
  • " We can even offer a quick filter on questions for new users so that they only see non-fresh questions. " The problem with this is that good non-fresh questions are more likely well-answered already, likely within the hour of post. New users will see that the question is already answered and, more often than not, be discouraged from even trying to answer cause their answer will be pushed to the bottom Mar 30, 2022 at 18:32
  • @Ryan I am almost exclusively a necroposter. There are loads of opportunities to provide superior answers on old questions. In fact, I feel that the only safe place to look for unique questions is half a decade ago. There are literally millions of questions on Stack Overflow. If you cannot find 5 questions in these millions, then I'd argue that all of the fresh questions that you find should be closed as duplicates and they shouldn't be answered by anyone anyhow. (Oh, wait, I do hammer ~19 out of 20 of all new questions BECAUSE they are multi-duplicates.) Mar 30, 2022 at 21:18
14

The problem with this approach is that it only fixes the symptom.

The symptom of a problem like the Fastest Gun in the West is not borne out of the fact that answerers are always eager to answer questions. To be fair, allowing users to answer questions as quickly as they can is an explicit feature of the site, and frankly, any site, only rivaled or superseded by real-time communication platforms.

The actual problem with users who jump into the fray to ask questions like that is that the questions are...fairly anemic. A question that has an answer within a few Google search keystrokes gets 10 answers in two minutes because the asker didn't do enough due diligence in research or asking their question. They did not do enough research.

So slowing down the answerers doesn't do anything to stymie the rush of crap questions that are available for people to answer.

10
  • 1
    Even if it only fixes symptoms. It is a step in the right direction. When answerers learn what is expected, they will better know how to behave when they become an asker. Aug 16, 2021 at 15:01
  • 7
    No, it's a step away from where we want to go. The site has had a very long and storied history of attributing a fix to the wrong group of users (think "Summer of Kindness", "Welcome Wagon", "New Question Wizard" (which doesn't show up often enough)), and this all kind of dances around the notion that the inquisitive people who come to Stack Overflow are just not that good at asking questions, and we move Heaven and Earth to accommodate them. I'd also like to keep asking and answering separate; there are extremes but those two actions are separate and mutually exclusive.
    – Makoto
    Aug 16, 2021 at 15:07
  • 2
    I agree with you. (One of) the big problem(s) that needs to be worked on here is that we need to encourage/ train/ filter/ etc. for better questions, which will inevitably help the answer problem. This is related to the fact that starting in Feb. of 2020, SO had (for the first time ever) more questions asked than answers given, and that has yet to flip back. I wouldn't say that we don't have an answer problem, but we definitely have a question problem, and I think steps to address the latter would help the former.
    – zcoop98
    Aug 16, 2021 at 16:21
  • Given, the idea that SO has a problem with LQ questions isn't new by any stretch.
    – zcoop98
    Aug 16, 2021 at 16:24
  • My proposal intends to reduce the LQ/FGITW posts on closable questions, reduce the time between question posting and question closing, and reduce the number of answers on closed questions. These effects make it easier for curators to delete questions and answers before upvotes are collected and interfere. By grooming volunteers to identify bad questions, there will begin a shift in question quality -- because only the best will survive. Having more of the bad questions closed will lighten the review queue markedly -- not to mention curators manually deleting this pages Aug 16, 2021 at 22:31
  • 3
    @mickmackusa: If you're only predicated on the fact that users answer low quality questions, you are by definition only looking at half of the problem. The number of people who are volunteering and willing to do this at all more than likely have a good sense of bad questions and know not to answer them. An effort like this has to target the harder, more elusive population, which is...the askers. This doesn't do that.
    – Makoto
    Aug 16, 2021 at 23:13
  • If people with the ability to post answers start prioritizing closing over answering, then we will have more asker bans. Everything will naturally start flowing toward what you and I are seeking. Aug 16, 2021 at 23:26
  • 3
    @mickmackusa: Once again you underestimate how many people actually care to curate content. The number of people who care to curate content is probably closer to 1% of the active user population of Stack Overflow. If you can't move that needle then no amount of flailing or technical hoops you put in place are going to save us.
    – Makoto
    Aug 17, 2021 at 14:50
  • I agree, 1% feels accurate. How can people care if they are unaware. Aug 17, 2021 at 20:57
  • "So slowing down the answerers doesn't do anything to stymie the rush of crap questions that are available for people to answer." Actually, it might. It makes the cost of getting an answer handed to you on a silver platter by asking on SO much higher than searching Google yourself for an hour. Maybe the limit should apply based on the asker's reputation, though, rather than the answerer's.
    – jpmc26
    Mar 30, 2022 at 23:41
5

I don't think it is good solution to problem. It will be hard to implement, it will punish people seemingly at random.

I can suggest softer approach. Remove all internet points awarded for answering closed question. By doing this we will remove incentive to jump on badly formulated question.

EDIT: It also add extra incentive to improve questions. You want to make sure that question you answer won't be closed, so you will try to save it, presumably by making it better.

There is a chance (as pointed in comments) that people will force those questions to stay alive by voting for them, but if it cause significant problem then we already lost. If we don't have enough manpower to curate questionse there are nothing we can do.

6
  • 3
    I could see this really motivating people to unjustly reopen pages where they've answered. Consider the fact that sometimes more recent pages are selected to close an older page (because the newer page is higher quality). The people who earned hundreds of unicorn points on the older page will have them stripped away and they will be heartbroken (maybe). At the moment, the only way that I can remove the rep gain from these bad answerers is to ensure that the question is closed and deleted. Aug 16, 2021 at 15:39
  • 2
    What we can already do works better: delete questions which have no value in the long run, which in turn takes away any unwarranted reputation gains at the right time.
    – E net4
    Aug 16, 2021 at 15:44
  • Yes, there is a risk that people will try to force reopen question, but it will require group effort. It boils down to the question: do we still have capacity to maintain quality of questions? If we don't, then all attempts are useless. Second part is potential problem too. But we may circumvent it by archiving those old question to prevent loss of points. I'm not too happy with this idea myself, but I just don't see any other options.
    – talex
    Aug 16, 2021 at 15:45
  • @E_net4theflagger we close such question, but rarely delete them. Should we delete questions aggressively?
    – talex
    Aug 16, 2021 at 15:47
  • While many question may evade the curation radar, initiatives towards this form of clean up do exist. The main problem with FGITW's is that they are likely to contribute to content which is not useful in the long run, and that content is candidate for removal.
    – E net4
    Aug 16, 2021 at 16:49
  • 1
    @E_net4theflagger I don't think that this is main problem. In my opinion is the fact that they create cycle biggest problem. Answers to bad questions create incentive to ask more bad question. We have to break that cycle. We can't do much about askers, so only option is to suppress answers. OP propose to make it more difficult to answer them. I propose to remove incentive to answer them.
    – talex
    Aug 16, 2021 at 17:52
0

Blocking is not an answer. A user must have the possibility to improve his/her answers/questions and his/her progress can only be seen in new questions and answers.

As you can see in this forum, the system of banning questions or answers is in place, and the users don't get why or have the nerve to read lengthy explanations, is how the system works.

The existing system has to be improved, so that old questions and answers, don't count, as it hinders people who have improved to go on in SO life and not everyone has the knowledge or confidence to answer in minutes.

So instead of banning and blocking more trainings possibilities for newbies and oldies. And maybe silver badges could delete answers by voting as I find often answers, that don't qualify for the harsh conditions of flagging, but they should also be removed.

5
  • 2
    I don't understand this answer. My proposal doesn't have anything to do with limiting a user's ability to "improve his answers /questions". My proposal doesn't not hold a user accountable for 100% of all of their answering decisions -- it is limited to their last 20 answers to check the current state of their contributions. There is no safeguard in place for answerers who fail to close pages properly. Solving this problem will not be done by affording silver badgers with more powers -- they are outnumbered by the other users who are not contributing optimally. Aug 15, 2021 at 22:38
  • @mickmackusa I think it probably refers to Allow old, poorly-asked questions to eventually age away for purposes of the question ban algorithm.
    – bad_coder
    Aug 16, 2021 at 9:47
  • No, the people can't find any of thein formation they need, so we need more quiestions and answers, so that everybody can find their wanted information, even when they don't speak the lingo. In the actual system it it hard to find anything . so the system must be improved. but as i stated in the first place with more basn and blocks, else SO has to evolve and change and evolve which it sadly isn't doing, we don't more restriction instead we need a system that allows every one to improve
    – nbk
    Aug 16, 2021 at 10:03
  • „As you can see in this forum, the system of banning questions or answers is in place, and the users don't get why“ Do we really see that? The complaints on meta by confused ban „victims“ seem to be in the low single digit range per month. Are those all the people banned? Are those all the people willing to improve? Unless one knows how many people dont complain and how many people do get it, the few vocal complaints seem meaningless. Aug 16, 2021 at 19:02
  • that is only because the most of them are already deleted, else you see a lot more of them and still nobody wants more bans or blocks
    – nbk
    Aug 16, 2021 at 20:27

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