18

Obviously the question should be somewhat related to programming or software development, but it feels a bit odd putting them on Stack Overflow because of the nature of the topic - oftentimes they are very open-ended (and could even be controversial), whereas the archetypical Stack Overflow question is often very technical with a definite goal and/or solution.

To give some examples:

  • Why did GNOME Desktop drop desktop icon support?
  • Why is JavaScript called "JavaScript"?
  • Why were 8, 16, 32, and 64 bit integers called byte, short, int, and long in C?
  • Why did OpenSSL use a proprietary license prior to version 3.0?

Answers to these four are quite trivial, but you get the point. Many things in the programming world are the way they are for mostly historical reasons, but newcomers into this field are unlikely to know them, and hence could be puzzled by, e.g. design decisions made decades ago. Therefore questions like this are for sure legitimate questions, but for some reason they just seem a bit off for Stack Overflow. So where do they belong?

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    Software Engineering has a history tag, take a look at examples of well-received questions there: softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/…
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 9:36
  • 12
    #1 is off-topic for SO because it's not programming related, but would be on-topic for any site that covered Linux desktop environments. #2 is (unpopular opinion warning) totally on-topic for SO, because it is about a programming language and can be answered objectively with citation of facts. #3 is not a valid question because its premise is wrong. But you can go find many duplicates pointing out why its premise is wrong, namely that the integer types in C aren't fixed-width. #4 is a licensing question and is off-topic for SO. Maybe there's a site for that?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 10:08
  • 14
    None of these are "history" questions, though, so they seem like relatively poor examples to me. Historical questions about software development are generally OK on Stack Overflow, as long as they have objective answers. Good history questions do. Opinion questions don't.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 10:08
  • @CodyGray yeah fair enough. I guess I didn't think thoroughly enough about my examples. On second thought those examples I gave can be reclassified as either "software design", "licensing" or something else.
    – cyqsimon
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 10:16
  • 6
    The third question may or may not be on-topic on Retrocomputing. I think I have seen similar (well received) questions there. Sample design questions: Why did C use the -> operator instead of reusing the . operator? and Why were single quotes ('…') chosen for characters, and double quotes (“…”) for strings? Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 10:17
  • 2
    @CodyGray #1 would be totally not acceptable on any site that deals with Gnome DE. It's opinion based. Those kind of questions don't have any site to be asked on.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 15:10
  • 21
    Asking why a design decision was made is not opinion based. Although the decision itself might have been an opinion, asking for the official rationale is not an opinion-based question.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 15:38
  • 8
  • 3
    @CodyGray if you are answering me, at least have the courtesy of pinging me. BTW, what Eric Lippert, we solved this years ago. No, asking why something is designed an specific way is opinion based.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 21:36
  • 3
    @CodyGray Re: #4, software licensing questions in general are on-topic on Law.SE, when about the law portion of the license. This licensing question, however, I'm not sure about, since it's not so much about the legality of the license, but rather is about the justification behind certain arbitrary decisions by the license author(s).
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 14:58
  • 3
    "Why is JavaScript called "JavaScript"?" Sounds a bit like trivia. It's not really useful knowledge helping you to solve a single programming problem. "Why did OpenSSL use a proprietary license prior to version 3.0?" They will have had their reasons. Proprietary licenses aren't that uncommon. "Why were 8, 16, 32, and 64 bit integers called byte, short, int, and long in C?" Again trivia, they could also be called completely different and programming wouldn't be harder or easier because of it. "Why did GNOME Desktop drop desktop icon support?" May be a question for unix.stackexchange. Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 15:27
  • 1
    @Trilarion on U&L we don't accept those kind of questions either.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 19:53
  • 4
    "Where do history-focused questions belong?" Elsewhere. We are only experts on programming here. We can only decide if something is on- or off-topic here, not where else it might be on-topic. Anyway, the destination might disagree. Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 13:31
  • The answers to these questions are absolutely not trivial and it require a lot of digging to know them. Creating these questions with answers is an useful thing. But, these questions are offtopic on the SO. It is pretty logical and useful to ask these question on the other 160 SE sites.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 20:52

7 Answers 7

11

Nowhere1.

These are the kinds of questions that are more trivia-centric than something that would actually help a developer get their job done on a daily basis. There's nothing concrete here that actually substantially matters when it comes to development, so there's really not a place on the network that it belongs.

Reddit or forums, perhaps. Stack Exchange, likely not.

1: Yes, I'm explicitly going against Cody Gray's opinion that #2 could be on-topic. Wikipedia explains the history and etymology of JavaScript quite well; don't need to see that regurgitated here.

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    "[...] actually help a developer get their job done on a daily basis." I don't only want to nitpick but I am not sure helping job be done on a daily basis is a requirement. Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 17:32
  • 2
    @FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier: You don't get Google/Bing/Yahoo/Jeeves/Metacrawler hits on Stack Overflow looking at trivia. You get people in the normal course of their work day looking for ways to tackle a problem.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 18:53
  • 4
    I'm not sure why you extend this to Stack Exchange as a whole? The various sites are not all focused on people getting their professional job done. Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 19:32
  • 3
    @StayOnTarget there are not many of those. Even Arqade is serious about questions about games. RPG? Ultra serious. Worldbuilding? HA! Not even the "fun" SE sites allow trivia questions, why would those that are about business do so?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 19:39
  • 1
    @Braiam it seems like a broad assumption that history questions are automatically "trivia". Or at least, a subjective judgement. Maybe some of them are, but I also think there can be a lot to learn from the history of many things. Possibly the 4 examples cited in this question don't have that potential, however. Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 19:46
  • 5
    @StayOnTarget: I have asked time and time again for a canonical example of a "good" historical question, and I have yet to have anyone actually find one for me to reference. I don't buy this philosophy that "it might exist"; either it does and it's on the site and it's on-topic and relevant with limited or no controversy, or it doesn't, and it falls into the typical pattern that every other question of this kind has.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 20:25
  • 3
    Are you including all of history.stackexchange.com in that? Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 20:26
  • 2
    @StayOnTarget: Are any of those historical questions not serious? Find me a historical question in that pile that isn't as serious as the others. I'll wait.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 20:28
  • 4
    @StayOnTarget that are asked merely for the entertainment of the asker. A "serious" question shows research, effort by the asker. They aren't merely "curious", they are "constructively curious".
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 20:35
  • 1
    There might be more interesting programming history questions existing that would also serve some educational purposes, especially if not starting with why. For example: How did programmers debug in the 70s? What programming paradigms were known when Latex was invented? How long was the source code for Windows 3.1 and how many programmers worked on it?... Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 21:37
  • 5
    Let's not start declaring questions off-topic because they have answers on Wikipedia or other sources...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 22:16
  • 3
    @Makoto The things that help me actually get work done in the course of any day now, is all these small bits and pieces of knowledge and wisdom I gleaned from various artifcats in the past years, many of which were answers, but a sizeable part of which were understanding constraints that humans had before, or why a particular thing was made. I exist in stark contradiction with your assertion that none of these matter. They have a great deal of importance in my life, on a daily basis. Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 1:42
  • 5
    @FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier I believe there are great questions about programming history but I'm not sure how big their usefulness for my daily work really is. You say they help you significantly, so maybe you could write your own answer here detailing some ways how you profit from historical knowledge. I would be interested to read it. However, regarding inappropriateness, I hardly think that counts here. It's implied that Meta discussions deal with opinions mostly. Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 12:49
  • 2
    @FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier: I would concur with Trilarion's comment that you should write a convincing answer to explain why historical answers are valuable to your day-to-day. However I would be maintaining my position on the general and broad practicality of historical answers in general - for the archetypal software developer that visits Stack Overflow from Google searches, learning the headspace of what engineers had to deal with back in the '70s when they were writing COBOL programs isn't exactly an answer to how to solve a specific problem in their current language.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 19:21
  • 3
    @FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier: To follow up to why I stated that Trilarion's examples "didn't matter" - it's because they satisfy curiosity for curiosity's sake, and they're not entirely constructive. For #1, if a program still needs to be maintained from the 70s and there's bugs in it, ask how to debug it now, not how it was debugged then. The programming paradigms that existed when LaTeX was invented are only loosely related subject matters. The length of Windows 3.1 and how many people worked on it sounds like one of those great questions to ask during trivia night.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 19:25
7

I think that most "why" questions are not actually looking for a historical answer (who made the decision, when, and on what grounds). They are asking about what benefits flow from the decision being made as it is. They might ask, for example, "Why does XPath treat an empty node-set as false, and a non-empty node-set as true", to which a reasonable answer might be "because it's convenient to be able to write X[@A] to select X elements having an A attribute, rather than having to write X[count(@A)>0]" Whether that's a correct historical explanation of the design decision is irrelevant: the questioner is looking for a justification of the decision, not a historical account of how the decision was made.

(In Aristotelian philosophy, by the way, the answer to "how did it come to be this way" is called the "efficient cause", and the "what purpose did it serve for it to be this way" is called the "final cause".)

OK, Downvoted, I guess because I relied too heavily on the reader to work out how this answers the question. My conclusion is that "why" questions of this kind, when they relate to software, are perfectly valid questions to ask on Stack Overflow, and usually merit an answer of the second kind: one that shows benefits that flow from the decision.

Some comments on other answers have suggested that "why" questions are inevitably opinion-based. I have to say that I strongly dislike the tendency on Stack Overflow to dismiss probing questions coming from people who want to understand their technology more deeply, of which "why" questions are often an example (and downvotes will not prevent me saying so). Some of the answers might be poorly researched to the point of being purely opinion based, but that does not mean there is anything wrong with the question.

7
  • 4
    Your "Why" question is actually sensible and would probably be more on-topic than a "Why is JavaScript called JavaScript"-style question. The difference: asking about a behavior in the scope of actual and active development has more concrete application than Netscape's history of wanting to jump on a bandwagon. It's just that these "why" questions are unsuitable for the site.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 18:56
  • 3
    "because it's convenient to be able to write X[@A]..."I read the question to this answer as asking for "What are the advantages of ..." instead of asking really why. What if it wouldn't be convenient? And also, would it make sense to ask for what the advantages are of JavaScript being called what it's being called? It probably sounded nice. I guess that the more interesting debate should be if programming history questions are in general ontopic or not. Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 21:33
  • 2
    Yes, but when people ask questions phrased with "why", they often mean "what are the benefits". Not always, of course: sometimes they mean "where in the spec is it defined that...?". You have to work it out from context. Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 7:47
  • 3
    They're not "probing questions" until the author clearly expresses exactly what they actually mean. Meanwhile there is something "wrong with the question".
    – philipxy
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 15:53
  • "What are the benefits" is in and of itself incredibly subjective and open-ended, and thus in no way shape or form a valid question for Stack Overflow.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 8:23
  • 1
    @IanKemp you might like to confine people to "what is 2+2?" questions, but I don't. I would like people to become better programmers, and that sometimes means asking "why is the answer 4?" Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 10:22
  • 2
    @MichaelKay I agree 100%. But the fact of the matter is that Stack Overflow, in its current form, is not designed for those kinds of questions. In the early days, when the site wasn't seen as the world's free IT helpdesk for vampires, things were different. But that was then and this is now, and right now the site's requirement is that questions be as narrowly-focused as possible.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 11:42
5

As Makoto says, nowhere, and this is evident from the guidance displayed when asking a question:

enter image description here

Note the words "specific" and "problem" - none of the example questions given fulfil those criteria.

The answers to historical questions may indeed be interesting, but interesting alone is not an acceptable reason to ask such questions on Stack Overflow.

3
  • 2
    Helping someone with a problem sometimes means helping them to develop a deeper understanding of the concepts, especially if they have shown a desire for that understanding by asking "why?". Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 10:26
  • Not knowing something is kind of a specific problem, or isn't it? Example: "I don't know why people called JavaScript JavaScript. They must have had a reason for that. What was it?" Answering that would (maybe not be very interesting) but surely add to the knowledge. Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 11:32
  • 5
    @Trilarion The problem with such a question is that has at best zero and at worst negative value. The same information is available via 5 seconds of using a search engine, and is unlikely to vanish from the Internet, so there is zero value in mirroring said information here. Further, such questions are well-known for attracting the opinion of every programmer and their mother, which will almost certainly lead to poor-quality answers, which require curator effort to remove = negative value. In other words, such a question is likely to do more harm than good, so it should be disallowed.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 11:54
4

Answers to these four are quite trivial, but you get the point.

Unfortunately, I didn't. The examples were mostly asking for speculation (only the concerned people can know that) or trivia (rather useless knowledge).

I guess there are interesting programming history questions to be asked, because programming history is part of history and history is interesting. But history just for the sake of describing the past doesn't really help you much for solving problems in the present.

For example: Would knowing more about how Donald Knuth's religious beliefs influenced his computer studies help you understand programming better? Maybe only marginally and maybe that wouldn't be the main point of asking for it.

One can though learn from history (and most of programming history isn't that long ago and/or is still relevant). In that case I would still prefer to connect it with an actually problem. So forget about simple why questions, ask the following instead:

  • How does (historical fact) X help me solving (modern problem) Y?
  • What (programming) problem was (historical fact) X supposed to improve at (time) T?
  • Why couldn't people in (time) T solve (problem) X with (solution) Y?
  • Why is (historical solution) X not used anymore and superseded by (newer solutions) Y?
  • ...

Good questions for Stack Overflow would need to be:

  • answerable in an concise, objective fashion (so excluding most simple why questions)
  • useful for modern day programming (including all legacy programming) which means they must be somehow relevant and the programming aspect must be the main aspect and the historical connection only context

If you can do this, ask a question here. Make history the context and make it about a programming problem, i.e. make the history relevant for programming.

Btw. there are already thousands if not millions of questions existing on Stack Overflow that primarily have historical relevance anymore, e.g. questions from 10 years ago that dealt with a technology that's no longer used much or at all (something like Visual Basic maybe). And over time, Stack Overflow will document programming history.

If it's only about history without relevance to programming problems (like why is language X called X) you may ask at any place discussing history (if they deem it important enough).

Summary: If it's connected to a programming problem it may even be ontopic here as some kind of context to the problem, but otherwise ask it elsewhere at a place focused on history.

2
  • 1
    "But history just for the sake of describing the past doesn't really help you much for solving problems in the present." I strongly disagree. Making effective use of any technology means you have to get inside its mind-set, and that means understanding how it came to be the way it is. Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 10:52
  • @MichaelKay Yes and no. Example: In order to understand deep learning I don't need to get into the mindset of the early machine learning scientists in the 1980's and maybe see where they failed and why. I just need a comprehensive overview and introductory work to all modern techniques from 2020 or later, which should of course contain also a bit of historical information, but only that which is still relevant. Not all of history is relevant for a particular topic. Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 11:25
2

One possibility would be to ask on the Retrocomputing site which does have a history tag:

https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/history

The examples cited in this question seem like they might have some potential assuming they otherwise fit into that site's guidelines. The "on topic" list specifically includes "computing history and persons with a historic relation to computing."

(It also specifically says, "Questions about modern, currently supported computers are off-topic. " So JavaScript history is probably out.)

It is a beta site; I get the impression that further refinement of what is expected both for a good history question and a good answer may still need to occur.

My personal opinion is that good historical answers should ideally be backed up by references/sources. But whether a question will be answerable in a way that lives up to that standard is hard to know when its being asked...

-1

Most of those questions don't have site to be asked on because several issues:

  • Why developers did thing?
  • Why is thing called thing?
  • Why X have name X and Y has name Y?
  • Why devs used X license?

Well, because it's their software and they can do it. You can ask for the rationale behind it, but people would argue that that rationale is crap or wrong, so it becomes a big discussion. SE Q&A model doesn't deal with run-of-the-mill opinions. You can back those opinions with facts, but at the end, people will continue discussing it. Lets avoid those discussions since nothing constructive is achieved. Entertainment, yes, but not productive.

But there's a more important problem, these example question aren't about history even. They are asking the motivations of developers to behave certain way which isn't history. Heck, we've had questions that asks for what someone said at certain time, and everyone got it wrong and the one that said it don't even remember, not much of a history lesson if all records are unreliable. Instead, what are actual good examples of history questions: What programming language first supported meta programming? What made C have declaration before use rules? etc.

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    I have some trouble believing that you can speak conclusively about what's on topic across every site in the network in this particular regard; on Stack Overflow, sure, we have some precedents for rejecting developer rationale questions, but other network sites may not, and may actually facilitate such a question without issue. If the question is precisely about "why did developer X do A", then that can have one, concise, undebatable answer. It absolutely could be a crap reason, but it's also 100% an objective answer about that reason, in that instance, which fits our model just fine.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 14:24
  • 3
    @zcoop98 ""If the question is precisely about "why did developer X do A", then that can have one, concise, undebatable answer." But only if the developer revealed his internal motivation (I did A because of B.), otherwise it would be pure speculation. Such questions must then read "Did developer X say anything about why he did A and if so what did he say?" to be answerable unambiguously. To be fair that's not how history works. History is full of conjectures. Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 15:16
  • No. Decisions have reasons, or at least... causes. The things not "just so are", they were created, and people created them, had their reasons. I see an unthinkably non-productive, suppressive attitude to essentially forbid others to ask for reasons.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 20:50
  • 2
    @peterh yeah, everyone has a reason: because they feel like it. That reason is just not important or productive. What advantages or disadvantages a decision has is actually productive.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 20:59
  • @Braiam No. It is not matter of taste. Important decisions are not being made so. You should check the mailing list archives, for example for the first question. You will see many debates, and read someone who says what will happen. With reason(s).
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 21:00
  • 2
    @peterh And a lot of the time, the reasons for those decisions boil down to "because somebody in authority said so", not because of logic. How many times has Linus Torvalds stepped in to overrule someone regarding the Linux kernel? The only person you would be able to consult for the rationale of such a decision would be Torvalds himself, and in many cases he would not be able to give a logical reason for doing so. In short, when so much of decision-making is subjective, asking "why" can only produce subjective answers and is thus mostly an exercise in navel-gazing.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 8:20
  • @IanKemp While I understand your point, and agree that those sorts of answers can certainly be unknowable, I do not agree that those underlying reasons boil down to "because I said so" most of the time. The reason the change occurred is almost certainly because authority was behind it, but those decisions by authority had some motivation behind them, even if it was a dumb or trivial one. I feel that describing those decisions as a proverbial coin flip by authority does disservice to the craft that goes into making such decisions. Disallow the questions as unproductive, not as whims.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 22:00
-11

Why did GNOME Desktop drop desktop icon support?

https://opensource.stackexchange.com

Why is JavaScript called "JavaScript"?

Maybe softwareengineering, possibly https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com (I actually dislike questions about such new technologies, but in this case I think leaving it open is the better).

Why were 8, 16, 32, and 64 bit integers called byte, short, int, and long in C?

Obviously https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com

Why did OpenSSL use a proprietary license prior to version 3.0?

https://opensource.stackexchange.com

Note, all of these sites (except softwareengineering) are far more inclusive than the SO. People are friendly and the community is bound by the love of its focal topic, and not by the $$$ they earn using the content.

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  • 4
    I wish I earned money from content here on Stack Overflow... Where do I sign up for that?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 8:13
  • @CodyGray possibly OP meant folks like me, "I am in it because it helps me keep a nice job with good pay... I just want the site to keep serving my needs as it did for about ten years now - helping do my job by providing easy-to-find and useful solutions for my coding problems..."
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 9:21
  • @peterh I wrote nothing about how I feel about my job, this is irrelevant here. My point was only about how Stack Overflow helps me make money on the job, nothing else. Whether this makes folks having different goals at SO feel better or worse, I honestly don't care because there are plenty other places in the internet to serve other needs and for my needs it just happened that Stack Overflow is the only one so far
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 10:35
  • @gnat That the SO/MSO is hostile because most people are here for $, and that the alternate sites are much better, yes it is very relevant. But I don't know, what to do. For example, reading Braiams post above, I could have vomited. He does not use a single negative toned word, yet his post is more evil than a -100-honored one.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 12:14
  • 5
    you keep using words hostile and evil despite admitting "does not use a single negative toned word", this makes it look like (mis)labeling things with sole purpose to convince people that it's something bad. I doubt that this tactics will work on people using this site for practical purposes, as a tool in their job
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 14:45
  • Because evil is a little bit different than not using bad words. Homework: try to find another example, where no bad words are used, yet the communication is evil!
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 18:02
  • 2
    I think the real reason may be that it's easy to keep mislabeling things when it doesn't go the way you would like. We have seen this before: When is Stack Overflow going to stop demonizing the quality-concerned users who have made the site a success?
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 19:06
  • @gnat No. You can be evil by not saying a single dirty word, this is what the most evil guys of the MSO are doing. For example, you understand very well, from my first comment, what I am saying, but you intentionally misunderstood it. I was always very curious, what could you think about your own ethics, but none of you ever answered it. My best idea, that your opinion is that I deserve this treatment, because I am criticizing the community. And you are still imho a nice kitty, compared to our heavy-weight trolls.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 19:51
  • @gnat Btw, the natural development of internet communities that a circle of such people cements themselves in and "rules" their pile until the eternity. Eternity means here: until the community is faded by some newer one. You are an oldboy, probably you used once irc and usenet, do you remember them? This will be the fate also of the MSO. But do not worry, it will yet last long, and until then you will be always able to feel yourself in your "natural environment".
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 21, 2021 at 19:57
  • @CodyGray You have already got it. How much more productive is your work, since you can use the SO? Can you generate a monetized estimate?
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 23, 2021 at 11:34

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