34

I know that NAA flags shouldn't be used on answers that look like they could be the answer to some question, even if they clearly aren't answers to the question they're posted under. (Because apparently there are lots of bogus NAA flags, so mods would rather have a custom flag that explains why something isn't an answer, if you're going to flag at all. (If there's a better canonical link for that case, please edit or comment.)

But that wasn't the case here. The entire answer on a question about how to do complex mul / div using SSE (SIMD) assembly instructions was just:

Intel goofed by not making it a single instruction: CMMPLY 8byte address1, 8byte address2

(There is no instruction of that name for any ISA according to google, and certainly not for x86. I don't think there's a "complex multiply in a can" by any other name for any modern mainstream non-x86 ISA either. I explained in comments that it also wouldn't make much sense as a proposed instruction for various reasons, but that was not the reason for flagging NAA. That was my reason for downvoting, and for replying about the interesting but misplaced CPU / instruction-set design proposal.)


My NAA flag was declined with

flags should not be used to indicate technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong answer.

But the post I flagged is basically saying "I wish this was the answer, but it isn't". That's never an answer to any programming question, or even to a CPU-design question, and was clearly phrased as a comment (on Intel's design choices, so the most on-topic place for it would be as a new question about CPU design, whether it was a "goof" or not to not provide packed complex-mul. Or as a comment on that question, rather than an answer).

IDK if my comments under the answer pointing out that it was wrong distracted the moderator from seeing that it was also not an answer?

Anyway, I know mods have a lot of flags to go through quickly, so mistakes like this are inevitable, and posting on meta to get them corrected is AFAIK the best thing to do when they happen. (With a tag I guess, since the tag description for talks only about site features, not moderator actions. This meta post isn't really asking a question or seeking discussion; I'm confident my flag was correct. But please correct me if I'm mistaken.)

16
  • 9
    Just a guess, but maybe this could be interpreted as a a "no, it's not possible" answer? Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 7:01
  • @JeanneDark: Oh, to a question that was specifically asking for a single instruction? (Anything computable is possible using enough instructions). It wouldn't be a good or direct answer, but good thinking to find a question where it could fit, yes that's a possible explanation for what a mod might have been thinking. Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 7:03
  • 17
    I declined it because it seemed to me like, "It isn't possible with one instruction, this is how it could have been done <code sample using multiple args>" which is an answer. I still feel like it's just a bad answer, definitely worth deleting, but not sure if it warrants a NAA flag. I'll let the community decide on this. In any case, my apologies, that you had to go through the hassle of posting this meta.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 8:28
  • 1
    @BhargavRao: Ok, understood. Allow me to correct your misunderstanding, then: That's that's not what the answer is saying, it's proposing a hypothetical 2-operand instruction which doesn't actually exist, but of the same form as mulpd xmm0, xmm1 which does xmm0 *= xmm1 (for both elements in parallel). The answer does not include any working code. Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 8:37
  • Most x86 instructions use 2 args, like add dst, src, but for any given instruction the arg count is fixed, so it's never a question of "using more args" anyway. If you need to do something the machine can't do in one instruction, you need to use multiple instructions (asm source lines). Assembly is assembled, not compiled, and every source line turns into (at most) one machine instruction. (modulo macros or db ... to manually encode multiple instructions, but x86 doesn't have pseudo-instructions the ways MIPS does, where li $v0, 65537 takes two machine instructions.) Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 8:40
  • Note that NAA flags are often handled in bulk (eg. see this mod answer), so such types of answers are not well-suited for NAA flags. Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 8:46
  • 12
    If I read all this right, you know that this isn't an Answer because you know the technology, right? :) So for a moderator to know this, they'd have to know it too, no? Which makes the Answer not a straight up "Not an Answer", no?
    – Scratte
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 8:47
  • 2
    @Scratte: Apparently that's somewhat true, because I mistakenly assumed that most people could understand it as saying "It's too bad Intel didn't make it possible to do in one instruction like this hypothetical one". Which obviously doesn't rule out doing it in multiple instructions. I mean, I might not understand COBOL or Pascal, but I think I could tell when the syntax was showing a single operation or not, so I didn't think that people would have to actually know any asm, just have a rough idea of what asm looked like. I didn't consider that someone might think that could be multiple isns. Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 8:55
  • Not mentioned and I can't check since the Answer has since "disappeared", but maybe the User didn't have the 50-Rep to be able to post Comments...? I've also "misused" the 'Answer' Input Fields to be able to post Comments in the Tag I answer at "the beginning", ... to later delete them myself anyway as only 5 "pending" Answers were allowed... - EDIT: Ah OK, I've seen your Reply @Peter...
    – chivracq
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 21:59
  • 1
    @chivracq: Good idea, but the user had 60-something rep when I first flagged, and currently has 64. So not a total beginner. I don't want to link their profile on meta since I don't want to point fingers at someone for choosing to post it in the first place, but I can if you want to see it. Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 22:00
  • 3
    @chivracq That would be completely irrelevant. If something is posted as an answer which is not an answer, then it should be flagged for removal. Users without the requisite rep to post comments are not allowed to end-around that by posting the comments as answers.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 5:01
  • @Cody, "completely irrelevant" + "are not allowed", yeah well..., maybe for 10K+ High-Rep Users who only know the "Dream World" of answering "large" Tags (for which the Site is designed), but the "Reality" is different when trying to answer small Tags with Low Qlt Qt's and mostly 1-Rep Users who "never" accept Answers nor upvote and where the 50-Rep Threshold for Comments is very high... (Took me 2 or 3 years to bypass it, and I didn't have any other "Choice" than to regularly (mis)use the 'Answer' Input Field in that time..., simply to ask the Asker to mention their Version for example...)
    – chivracq
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 14:34
  • safe bet for NAA flag is, it can be handled without looking at question. Link-only answers are special case though as these require one to check whether the question asks for links or not. Things would probably work differently if we had 300 moderators instead of 30 but I doubt that folks would be happy to have that many elections and share their PII with that many users
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 16:04
  • @chivracq: [assembly] / [sse] are not that low traffic (e.g. basically all of my 250k rep came from those tags) so no excuse there. And that's still not something we want to happen. I'd suggest that it would have been better to "farm" some rep by posting an answer to a new question in some more popular tag you know something about, instead of abusing the system for years. Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 16:07
  • @gnat: Questions that ask for links are almost always off topic ("request for off site resources"), and only allowed as a grandfather clause or because the community chooses to make an exception to the general rule and not enforce that rule in that case. So I think it's not a problem that NAA could be raised "more easily" on answers to such questions. (Also, IMO good answers to such questions will be more than just a link, e.g. Where is the x86-64 System V ABI documented? , although my own answer there is somewhat out of date, xD). Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 16:12

1 Answer 1

28

This is really not a good use-case for a "not-an-answer" (NAA) flag. The answer did not meet any of the following criteria which are generally assessed when evaluating NAA flags:

  • obviously irrelevant to the question
  • obviously commenting on the question or another answer
  • obviously saying "thanks"
  • obviously asking a question
  • obviously just incoherent gibberish.

In fact, it presented relevant-looking information—a CPU instruction in response to a question about CPU instructions. It was not in any way obvious that the post was irrelevant to the question being asked.

Arguably, it could even still be seen as a valid answer of the "not possible" variety, where it specifically laments a mistake on Intel's part in not providing the necessary functionality. (Wrong answers are not non-answers.)

Determining that it doesn't attempt to answer the question requires too much domain-specific knowledge to make this a suitable use-case for a NAA flag. You have, unfortunately, far too much domain-specific knowledge for you to ever be able to evaluate this objectively, much less from the perspective of a mod who completely lacks that domain knowledge. But that's the reality of "not an answer" flags.

Prefer to use custom flags in these cases, instead: "This answer needs to be deleted because <insert compelling reason here>."


IDK if my comments under the answer pointing out that it was wrong distracted the moderator from seeing that it was also not an answer?

Unlikely. Moderators don't generally read comments at all when evaluating "not an answer" flags.

I know mods have a lot of flags to go through quickly, so mistakes like this are inevitable…

Yes, that's true, but in fairness to the moderator who handled this, I wouldn't say this counts as a mistake on the part of moderators. Just an unfortunate limitation of the very blunt instrument that is the NAA flag.

You don't expect the janitor who cleans up your workspace after hours to throw away a power supply or PCB that you've fried. They don't know it's useless. That isn't obvious to a janitor. It requires some degree of technical knowledge. Or a clear label on it.

[P]osting on meta to get them corrected is AFAIK the best thing to do when they happen.

Yes, if you think that there needs to be a policy change and/or you want the community's input. In a case where you have a NAA flag declined on something that looks to you like it needs to be deleted on the grounds that it doesn't even attempt to answer the question, then you can also follow up by raising a custom flag on it. Don't keep doing this ad nauseam; that's just annoying. But doing it once, after you realized what was obvious to you wasn't obvious to the mod who handled your NAA flag is reasonable. Coming to Meta is, of course, fine, as always, but a case like this one likely could have been handled much more expediently by following up with a custom flag.

[T]he post I flagged is basically saying "I wish this was the answer, but it isn't". That's never an answer to any programming question…

I'm not entirely sure that I agree with this. As alluded to above, something like "I wish it were possible to do this like so, but it is unfortunately not" can be a valid answer—in form, even if not in terms of correctness—to a programming question.

29
  • 1
    Yeah, that seems to be the case. I thought the English text part of the answer made it clear the "domain specific" part wasn't an answer, but as you say, it's hard to imagine where someone else might get from a mental starting point I couldn't even imagine because I was already looking at it in the "correct" way. (Although I still don't know if they meant memory addresses with implicit register outputs, or register operands). Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 9:02
  • 1
    The "not possible" part still doesn't seem plausible to me because the question title didn't include any "single instruction" constraint. (And I hadn't thought of that possibility, so I thought the first bullet point did apply: irrelevant as an answer to any programming question.) In practical terms, it is totally irrelevant to comment on the lack of a single instruction because it doesn't get you any closer to working code. (And multi-instruction answers already existed, although from that angle my argument is bordering on "bad compared to existing answers", rather than NAA). Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 9:07
  • 3
    So it sounds like the NAA flag description is in serious need of a change. "But does not attempt to answer the question". I already knew to substitute "any question" despite it not saying that, and only came up short in my failing to account for total misunderstanding of what the answer was saying, and/or the possible "any question" that could match it. That "the question" wording makes us want to use NAA for non-answers, so it's frustrating that the actual use cases are limited to things that couldn't even possible be mis-interpreted as answers. Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 9:13
  • 2
    I do not agree with the "the" -> "any" substitution. Python answers to C++ questions are eligible for NAA flags. Yet, I still don't think this was.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 9:16
  • 4
    @PeterCordes Flagging a Python Answer to a C++ Question is, as far as I understand, still risky. Some moderators will honour the flag, others will not. Don't assume Cody will be the moderator handling your flags ;)
    – Scratte
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 9:24
  • 4
    The mental gymnastics required to keep this answer on the site are incredible. It isn't even stellar content. Just delete it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 15:08
  • 6
    No one is trying to keep the answer. It's already been deleted.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 15:19
  • 8
    It should be deleted in the first instance, not because of meta complains. The flag accepted and the answer deleted.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 15:37
  • 1
    FWIW, while not relevant to the post that this meta question is asking about, if one is going to enumerate the conditions that qualify an answer as "not an answer", one should include also the "link-only answer" scenario. Granted, moderators are inconsistent about this -- I have had moderators decline both NAA and custom flags on link-only answers, both with the comment that I should have used the other (i.e. agreeing that the post should be removed, but disagreeing with my means of communicating that). But consensus seems to be NAA is more appropriate for link-only answers. Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 17:32
  • 6
    @PeterCordes not sure if you're into chat but you can always post a is this [link to answer] NAA? in the SOCVR room and the folks there are pretty good at making the right call.
    – rene
    Commented Jul 18, 2021 at 18:41
  • 5
    "Python answers to C++ questions are eligible for NAA flags. Yet, I still don't think this was." From the perspective of someone who understands the original topic, I think it is pretty clear that the answer offered is analogous to a "Python answer to a C++ question". It proposes a nonexistent opcode, which in effect makes it a "nonexistent-assembly-language answer to a x86-assembly-language question". Alternately, it reads as a language design proposal, which cannot possibly be expected to answer a programming question. Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 4:53
  • 4
    Not to mention: technical discussion spaces generally have norms against posting these kinds of answers because they are really just thinly veiled rants about someone else's design, which is not conducive to further productive discussion. All the same arguments for why "opinion-based" or "seeking recommendations for tools etc." are considered valid reasons to close a question, apply here. Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 4:59
  • 1
    Could you clarify the first bullet point "obviously irrelevant to the question"? From my understanding, questions are not necessarily looked at when handling NAA flags. If that's true, "obviously irrelevant to the question" is not a useful metric upon which to raise a NAA flag, since that requires looking at the question. Your answer, as currently phrased, suggests that this would be a valid criterion for raising NAA.
    – cigien
    Commented Jul 19, 2021 at 17:03
  • 2
    I don't see how this does not match with the "obviously commenting on the question or another answer". This obviously is not an answer, but a comment. Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 19:04
  • 4
    @MarkRotteveel: This case still seems pretty clear-cut to me as a NAA with only the most basic knowledge of what asm looks like, and arguments for other interpretations seem like a stretch. As Cody says, mods should look at what the question is asking, and it wasn't requiring a single instruction. The fact that a 250k rep user with gold badges in most of the relevant tags is flagging it as NAA should IMO carry some weight, too, but I assume it doesn't, so that's a case of SO not taking advantage of useful signals. I won't NAA flag in similar future cases, but I consider that a problem. Commented Jul 20, 2021 at 21:19

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .