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I was looking at the Google Cloud Collective and noticed something slightly odd: of the 5 people listed as collective administrators, 4 have 1 rep and 1 has only the association bonus. None have ever asked or answered a question on Stack Overflow, and four of them have never completed any edits, performed any review tasks, participated in Meta, or even taken the site tour. I find that concerning, since only one of the five appears to have any prior experience with Stack Overflow at all.

My question, then: what's being done to ensure that administrators of collectives are familiar with Stack Overflow (or that they will familiarize themselves with it as quickly as possible)? What should be done to ensure this?

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    But why would that be problematic? I mean it's good to voice a concern but if you don't actually explain why it is a concern to you, you kind of expect people to read your mind or make assumptions.
    – Gimby
    Jul 1, 2021 at 13:07
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    @Gimby Isn't it reasonable to expect that someone who's an administrator on a Stack Overflow collective should actually know about Stack Overflow? They're basically being given lots of privileges on a platform they may or may not know anything about. Jul 1, 2021 at 13:12
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    You say "lots of privileges" - which privileges are we talking about here? Be specific, because there is a good chance that there is a misconception here. And also that you know something that I don't, which would help me ;)
    – Gimby
    Jul 1, 2021 at 13:18
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    I agree that they should familiarize themselves with the site but you said: "They're basically being given lots of privileges" -- Like what? AFAIK, they can only manage Recognized Members in their collective and see some metrics about the collective. In other words, they don't have any regular moderation tools that they haven't earned it via reputation (so far). Jul 1, 2021 at 13:21
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    Afaik, the only "privilege" they get is about articles and managing recognized users and employee tags. They do not get any of the rep based privileges (edit, close, delete). For the privileges they get, there is noone on SO with prior knowledge specifically for that.
    – BDL
    Jul 1, 2021 at 13:22
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    despite my obvious paranoia about the feature, we are at least promised that admins will have to earn the privileges (see the answer here) just as we do - seems like the answer is yes, yes they should Jul 1, 2021 at 13:24
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    @OlegValter indeed. So far we have been given no reason to believe that this completely new feature which is well beyond our reach as regular worker drones is going to... "invade" our space. It's a "their party" and an "our party" and the only true feature which is a link between the two camps is the recommendation of answers.
    – Gimby
    Jul 1, 2021 at 13:36
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    Don't they "also" get the ability to tag answers as approved/blessed by the collective? That seems to me to be a fairly powerful and impactful ability (unless I am mis-remembering it). Assuming this is true, I imagine it will lead to others tagging the answer as useful resulting in (potentially) artificial reputation influence.
    – JonSG
    Jul 1, 2021 at 15:53
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    Someone didn't read the announcement, but immediately panicked. The announcement made a lot of things this question is seeking out clear: They get trained and don't have any of the normal QA privileges. While there are things to criticizes, this is not one of them.
    – MegaIng
    Jul 1, 2021 at 16:20
  • @JonSG Don't underestimate the power of the... of the... review side? Well that went nowhere. In any case, I personally suspect that recommended answers are going to see extra heavy scrutiny rather than drawing moths to a flame. We're not surrounded by stupid people here.
    – Gimby
    Jul 2, 2021 at 9:19
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    Failing to ensure administrators have adequate experience with StackExchange is a quick way to ruin collectives and ensure many complaints from the members and the inexperienced administrators alike. How would you like to fly with an inexperienced pilot, or have an inexperienced lawyer handle your case, or an inexperienced doctor operate on you? Unfortunately comment sense has become increasingly uncommon... The desire to grow too quickly has been the downfall of many sites. "Training" is not "Experience". Jul 2, 2021 at 22:20
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    @Megalng Their actions could presumably have effects in the main site, though. You don't see any potential consequences for someone who has literally no prior experience with SO whatsoever administering one of the very first collectives? Jul 2, 2021 at 23:26
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    @EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica As I said. You didn't read the announcement. Of course I see negative possibility. But acting like SO isn't aware of that and not doing anything is straight up wrong: The admins do get training as example.
    – MegaIng
    Jul 3, 2021 at 20:35
  • @Megalng Is that a sufficient replacement for actual proven experience, though? Jul 4, 2021 at 2:37
  • As of writing this comment, more admins were added to the Google Cloud Collective, and now there's some people with some reputation (not sure if this will still be true whenever you read this).
    – Jofre
    Jul 6, 2021 at 7:38

3 Answers 3

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Should administrators of Collectives be encouraged or required to have experience with Stack Overflow?

YES.

Not knowing how Stack Overflow functions can be a problem. While they can only manage things related to collective, they can also earn reputation by posting articles. Not having experience with Stack Overflow can give inexperienced users undeserved privileges.

See: Can articles be off topic?

How to ensure they have experience?

I am afraid that solution is out of community reach. This is something only Stack Overflow and the companies owning collectives can solve at the moment.

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    How to ensure they have experience? ---> the way to measure their expertise is to, like everyone else, measure it by reputation. Everyone in the community has rep-based privileges, so shouldn't they as well?
    – 10 Rep
    Jul 1, 2021 at 19:14
  • @10Rep Yes, reputation should be the measure. But, at the moment Collectives can have admins that don't have any reputation earned on the site participating outside the collective. We cannot ensure they have experience, we don't have a say in appointing admins and only companies owning collectives and SO can ensure that. Jul 1, 2021 at 19:21
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    For a big company like for example Google, there shouldn't be a problem to dig through their current employees and ask them who knows a bit of Go (or whatever the topic is) and also got some rep at SO. There's your admin pool.
    – Lundin
    Jul 2, 2021 at 6:57
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    For collectives based on technologies owned/managed by specific companies, do we even know if the admins were given the choice to use their personal accounts in the first place? I would not want to risk losing my stack overflow account when leaving a company. That being said, I'm still for admins having Stack Overflow experience.
    – Locke
    Jul 3, 2021 at 2:15
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    @Lundin Jon Skeet works at Google... I'm not sure if he knows about Go, but he sure knows about Stack Overflow. So, they do have employees who know about SO, they apparently just didn't pick any of them to be involved in the project. Jul 3, 2021 at 15:26
  • @Locke There really should be a mechanism in place to painlessly revoke company rights from account, without affecting existing posts. Jul 3, 2021 at 18:46
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    @EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Any big software company like that will have thousands of employees who use SO. Now of course, the same companies will have the problem of one part of the company having no clue about what another part is doing.
    – Lundin
    Jul 5, 2021 at 6:40
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Collective administrators do not get any of the current reputation-based privileges like editing, close-voting or deleting. Thus, I see no reason why collective administrators need prior experience on SO.

The only real "privileges" those admins get are:

  • Managing Articles
  • Managing "Recognized User" and "Employee" tags

Neither of these tasks (maybe articles a little bit) requires much experience with the Q&A part of Stack Overflow.

SO state in this post that collective administrators have to earn all reputation-based privileges like any other user. If this is ever going to change, I'm with you that administrators need prior expertise.

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    make sense, I think it needs to change from Admin to Organizer or any different role name, Basically, the term "admin", they have some kind of privileges and they know about the platform, if they didn't visit tour of SO it means they don't know about SO but they are the "admin", how people will enthusiast to join collective as a member?
    – turivishal
    Jul 1, 2021 at 15:01
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    @turivishal why would joining a collective be in any way decided by whatever admins may exist as part of it? I would think you join the Go collective because you have an invested interest in Golang, and not because ""spf13" is managing recognised users and employees for that collective.
    – Gimby
    Jul 1, 2021 at 15:19
  • @Gimby I agree I will join because of my interest but as a member, I will also look at the construction of the platform as well, the term "admin" is an almost top level member of the platform, this answer clears that they have (Manage Articles, "Recognized User" and "Employee" tags) I agree, but as a new user/member it looks odd when I see statistics (reputation/badges) of the admin, it is like I am in a school where there are monitors who don't know about school but they are monitors. Assume if we off reputation/badge statistics in "Collective Admins" box then it looks normal.
    – turivishal
    Jul 1, 2021 at 16:03
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    And yet, the privilege of managing and/or editing Articles is so significant that it has not even been given to diamond moderators. I guess the conclusion is that a good maintainer of Articles cannot be one who has significant familiarity with the Stack Exchange platform. :-(
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Jul 1, 2021 at 17:28
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    @CodyGray: Fallacious logic. The conclusion is merely that significant familiarity with Stack Exchange is not sufficient to be a good maintainer of Articles. Jul 1, 2021 at 17:51
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    What is sufficient, @Nate? Employment at Google? One would think that election by the community and familiarity with content moderation would be more than sufficient.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Jul 1, 2021 at 17:59
  • Because admins can appoint Recognized Users, they have significant authority. Jul 1, 2021 at 18:15
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    Yeah, wow, just gloss right over Articles. How much you wanna bet the next time Google comes out with a new Cloud service, all of a sudden there's an Article touting its ability to solve all the things!? No one outside the Collective has the ability to close an Article. No one outside the Collective can remove it for problems with the content. Heck, no one outside the Collective can even edit it for spelling mistakes! Jul 1, 2021 at 18:47
  • articles are a bit of an odd one out, but there is no reason to believe that community moderation of articles will never become a thing. It's just not a thing right now.
    – Gimby
    Jul 2, 2021 at 9:21
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    While writing a decent article does not necessarily require Q/A experience, it would certainly require a good judgement of what is on-topic and off-topic for SO, along with basic knowledge about how the platform works. As demonstrated by the second google-cloud collectives article, googles "Head of Developer Ecosystems" is missing both of those as his article is off-topic and demonstrates a poor understanding of the interactions available for articles (he's asking two questions that readers should answer - where, in the 600-character ephemeral "can be deleted for any reason" comments?)
    – l4mpi
    Jul 2, 2021 at 13:19
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From the beta release announcement here:

Admin

The admin of a collective has all the abilities the Recognized Member has, but also has access to the data (see below) from within the collective. They are the ones who manage Recognized Members and are able to invite Stack Overflow users to become Recognized Members within the collective.

It's not really clear what exactly "admin" gives you access to. Here's from my comment chat below that post with Cesar M (Community Manager):

So private companies can essentially buy moderator rights on SO, within their "collective"? And censor uncomfortable content such as posts pointing out bugs in their products? – Lundin Jun 23 at 15:05

@Lundin erm, no? This doesn't give any diamond moderator rights. Moderation is fully under diamond mods control. – Cesar M♦ Jun 23 at 15:14

@CesarM Ok. Thanks for the clarification. Maybe use another name than "admin" then, because among programmers admin means full access to everything. – Lundin Jun 23 at 19:13

So it would seem to be that the name administrator was just poorly picked. It does supposedly not give any moderation privileges. Maybe they should have named it "Collective Manager" or something less loaded than admin.

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    "Moderation is fully under diamond mods control." - (x) doubt. Mods can't moderate articles, as proven by that trainwreck posted in the GC collective Jul 2, 2021 at 7:55
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    Yeah, this is wrong. Diamond mods don't have any privileges when it comes to moderating Articles, other than the ability to delete/undelete comments. We can't even edit (we could before, but that loophole was patched). The only people who have any privileges when it comes to Articles are the admins of the team. So, it looks like the name was aptly chosen.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Jul 2, 2021 at 8:08
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    @CodyGray Okay... if that's true, then it's horrible. Sounds like the "Documentation project" but without moderators.
    – Lundin
    Jul 2, 2021 at 8:37
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    @Lundin it doesn't sound like it. That's exactly what it is Jul 2, 2021 at 9:26
  • Curation is still under diamond control excluding Articles. This seems like it will lead somewhere else even worse because its open to abuse. If google cloud hated stack overflow one day they could spam articles and nobody could do anything.
    – 10 Rep
    Jul 2, 2021 at 17:31

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