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This came to my mind when I saw this question, which was closed because

Questions which require users to go to off-site links in order to have the context needed to answer are not useful to future visitors

I frequent the tag, where it is very often essential to see the asker's full HTML in order to address the question. Almost always, the user provides an offsite link rather than adding useful HTML to the question. Even seasoned users, whom I regularly see offering extremely useful answers, often ask for a link to the user's website to reproduce an issue. (I will admit that I used to do so.) Examples:

This question relies on https://poocoin.app/sniper-watcher

This question relies on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yjO6yfHLcU&ab_channel=TRT%C4%B0zleTRT%C4%B0zleDo%C4%9Fruland%C4%B1

This question relies on https://www.trovaprezzi.it/televisori-lcd-plasma/prezzi-scheda-prodotto/lg_oled_cx3?sort=prezzo_totale

This question relies on https://www.qrcode-monkey.com/#text

There are many more examples, and the above are all from the last 5 hours. My questions:

  1. Should all of these questions be closed unless the HTML can be included in the question? I considered editing some of the questions, grabbing the HTML, but 1) The HTML is often so huge, and it takes some time to figure out the minimum needed to reproduce the issue; 2) I already have a full time job!
  2. Does anyone have an idea if we can somewhere add guidance regarding the HTML and off-site links?
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  • Cool, I haven't seen that! I like that page, especially the guidance regarding HTML. It does suggest including a decent amount of information that is very often irrelevant. But I guess adding those details does not detract from the quality of the question. So, if we were to implement something like that for guidance, any idea how it could work, logistically?
    – C. Peck
    Commented May 30, 2021 at 0:11
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    I don't know selenium nor do I frequent that tag. But part of the "reproducible" aspect of an MRE is that it should stand the test of time, it should be reproducible even for future readers. A website can change its HTML, so it's not guaranteed to be always reproducible. If we handle it same as questions that just provide a github link instead of actual code, then I would flag/vote to close as needing debugging details and provide a link to the MRE guidance. Commented May 30, 2021 at 0:24
  • I'm not convinced it's necessary, but would anyone know how to implement a question template as suggested in the above link? Is that something that's commonly done?
    – C. Peck
    Commented May 30, 2021 at 0:25
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    @GinoMempin this would result, basically, with the majority of questions being closed. If we actually started flagging such questions it would be a major change for how we treat questions in the tag. Perhaps a positive change, but very many individuals would get their question closed. (I know that Q/A for individuals is not the focus of this site)
    – C. Peck
    Commented May 30, 2021 at 0:29
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    So what? Close them. Anyway they will know how to get them open.
    – philipxy
    Commented May 30, 2021 at 9:18
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    @gnat Well... These questions are usually far from meaningless without the link.
    – C. Peck
    Commented May 30, 2021 at 19:22
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    None of the linked questions does show any research and neither do they show any effort to narrow the problem down. On the other hand I guess the question is how to best narrow the problem down with Selenium related issues. We should probably focus more on teaching people these skills, instead of simply doing the work for them (unless that's what we want to do in which case an external link is totally fine - at least the problem is reproducible). Commented Jun 1, 2021 at 8:30
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    I'd feel pretty scary if I clicked on poocoin.app/sniper-watcher -- just the domain name and resource sound fishy. Commented Jun 1, 2021 at 19:17

2 Answers 2

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Similarly in assembly language, beginners often have problems that they think are in one part, but it turns out the full context is important because of something their bootloader / toy OS did earlier in its setup, or in some interaction they don't understand between functions (i.e., beginners are nearly incapable of reducing their code to an actual MCVE, or if they were they'd have already found the problem and not posted. Also, most users that need help with debugging don't really understand the concept of an MCVE).

A useful middle ground is to provide what they think is an MCVE in a code block, but still link to their full code on pastebin or GitHuB, or wherever else.

People that choose to answer such questions may need to see the full code (or actually pull it from GitHub to debug locally if they're feeling ambitious, and yes that does happen sometimes, for at least one user who's written most of the long canonical [bootloader] answers on SO).

But critically, often the resulting answer can be useful to future readers without the full code, if said answer quotes or talks about the other relevant parts of the full code if there were any.

This is the real point of the requirement. The fact that future readers may not be able to get the full code themselves isn't ideal, but it's not a showstopper and doesn't mean the question needs to be closed, if there's a useful answer to a specific problem that the question is about. (If you think the question won't have future value to Stack Overflow for other readers, go ahead and downvote.)

Questions like these don't tend to be ones that would be useful to write new answers for in the future, so it's not a disaster if the link to the full code dies after an answer exists, as long as the answer has enough detail. (Although that's perhaps because my experience of such Q&As has been with x86 PC legacy-BIOS MBR bootloader / toy-OS questions, where there's been almost literally no change in the software interface for decades.)


I considered editing some of the questions, grabbing the HTML, but 1) The HTML is often so huge, and it takes some time to figure out the minimum needed to reproduce the issue

It's not an editor's responsibility to dig an MCVE out of the full code!!! You're absolutely right; it takes real work, and an understanding of the code, to do this.

If someone wants answers from Stack Overflow, it's 99% their responsibility to do the work of creating an MCVE. (Many beginners don't understand the concept that the MCVE just has to have the same problem. It doesn't have to still do all the things that the original did, and in fact it's better if it doesn't try to do anything useful, just enough code to have the problem.)

If they just post a snippet of their code that's not actually complete and verifiable, it's not an MCVE and you are 100% justified in downvoting, and closing if you're pretty sure the state of the question would make answers not useful to other future readers. (E.g., because there's no way for people with the same actual problem to find this question by searching on the title or things that appear in the code.)

The more work put into making a nice MCVE and narrowing the problem, the more likely it is to be useful, at least as a duplicate for future questions where experienced users can see it's the same problem. Too much clutter and noise bogs it down, making a less useful duplicate. So that's a good reason to downvote questions with code that isn't an MCVE. (https://idownvotedbecau.se/nodebugging/ / https://idownvotedbecau.se/nomcve/).

Posting the full code in the question separate from an attempt at an MCVE would be something to consider, but definitely not instead of an MCVE: That would be https://idownvotedbecau.se/toomuchcode/.

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  • Note that answerers can edit the question to add the relevant part of the code, making it a complete example.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 30, 2021 at 11:47
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    "beginners are nearly incapable of reducing their code to an actual MCVE, or if they were they'd have already found the problem and not posted." Well said. And often, more experienced answerers can pinpoint the problem without even having the benefit of the MCVE. I agree with basically everything you said and the max comment length is too short to share my thoughts on each of the good points that you made. For me, the question that remains is what is the best way to implement guidance like the "useful middle ground" you suggest. For now I can at least comment such on these posts I see.
    – C. Peck
    Commented May 30, 2021 at 20:12
  • @C.Peck: Yup, exactly. If you feel like a question looks interesting and you want to play around with the full situation, ask for a link to their actual code / project / whatever term is appropriate for Selenium questions if it's not present in the question. Commented May 31, 2021 at 2:20
  • Nitpick: It's called MRE now
    – klutt
    Commented Jun 1, 2021 at 15:09
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    @klutt: MCVE still captures the essential points better, and [mcve] still expands (to the MRE page, at least on non-meta SO). I still think of the concept as MCVE, regardless of what Stack Overflow itself calls it. Commented Jun 1, 2021 at 19:29
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very often essential to see the asker's full HTML in order to address the question

Only if the question is essentially asking people to debug their code for them: how do I make this specific code work with this specific HTML. But those questions are not useful to other people; down-vote and vote to close. The close reason Needs debugging details is actually a trick: by the time the user has reduced their problem to a minimum example, they will have debugged it themself, or transformed their problem about the behaviour of the API or library they are using (which could be useful to others).

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  • What I really should have written, is that such HTML is necessary to reproduce the problem. The question does not have to be about debugging "specific code" with "specific HTML", but any issue is likely unreproducible without both.
    – C. Peck
    Commented Jun 1, 2021 at 15:15

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