27

This answer (revision history) in its original form was deleted from the LQP review queue1. It was subsequently undeleted by OP for the sole purpose of adding a spam link (see the timeline).

It seems to me that posts deleted from review should - at a minimum - be required to be edited (preferably substantially) before being allowed to be undeleted. Such edits should be subject to the same review cycle as the original post (in this case the first post, late answer and LQP queues). This would (hopefully) allow spam attempts like this to be caught before being released into the wild.

For those who can't see it, here's the original answer (it has been deleted as spam now so this is from the edit history):

enter image description here

1Sadly, the post made it through the first post and late answer queues successfully despite not being an attempt to answer the question, but that's another story.

7
  • 5
    This has come up on MSE several times, this being the most recent one I could find.
    – cigien
    Commented May 4, 2021 at 1:21
  • @cigien thanks for that... I think I'm offering a new suggestion here as to how this could be resolved with what (seems to me) should be a minor change to force undeleted posts to go through the same review process as the original. It would also have the benefit of removing another source of auto-generated mod flags, easing their job.
    – Nick
    Commented May 4, 2021 at 1:31
  • 4
    Sure, I wasn't suggesting it's a cross-site dupe necessarily. I only linked to it because it seems to be discussing the same issue; I just skimmed the MSE question and answer myself.
    – cigien
    Commented May 4, 2021 at 1:33
  • 3
    Yeah, I've seen this happen a multitude of times. At that point, I don't think undeletion by the OP should be permitted at all. Maybe if a review results in deletion, Community should perform the action so it can't be undeleted (and so that mods don't have to get involved themselves to fix it when stubborn posters try to undelete their NAAs) Commented May 4, 2021 at 4:46
  • @CertainPerformance it is an interesting exclusion from the "you can't undelete" posts deleted by others rule that it requires that all the "delete" votes are cast by "trusted" users.
    – Nick
    Commented May 4, 2021 at 4:54
  • 2
    What is even the point of such a deletion/non-deletion? Commented May 4, 2021 at 11:09
  • 4
    @VladimirF Actually, a very large majority of posts deleted via review stay deleted forever, and so there's definitely a lot of value in deletion via review; the effort of curators is certainly not wasted in that regard. OP's question is about trying to patch a flaw in the system that allows users to unilaterally undelete their own posts if deleted via review, but I'd like to note that this flaw is relatively rarely abused.
    – cigien
    Commented May 4, 2021 at 14:48

2 Answers 2

21

The reason is mostly historical. This functionality came about because as far as the system knows, review-deleted posts don't attribute the deletion to anyone, and the author can undelete any deleted post that doesn't have its deletion attributed in the history (see another example case where this was so). (The "post deleted from review" event isn't an actual deletion attribution, just a separate entry, as if you were to query SEDE for delete voters, that column would be empty).

This behavior was discussed a while back, but it was decided to retain it at the time due to three main factors:

  • There were very few such cases: only 849 out of 39,368 review-deleted posts, or about 2%, were undeleted afterwards by their authors. Of those, a significant amount were improved by their authors before or after undeleting and weren't subsequently re-deleted.

  • It would have been hard at the time (and would still be hard today) to stuff reviewer names into the post's deletion record, as is done with trusted user delete votes.

  • Attributing the deletion to the Community user was considered, but at the time, there was no explicit exception allowing posts deleted by the Community user to be voted for undeletion; that is, as it's a moderator, it would only allow moderators to undelete. It was decided not to add an exception at the time because of the small number of affected posts; it was only added later (a few months later) for an entirely different reason.

An apparent compromise was implemented, where the author undeleting their review-deleted answer would raise an automatic moderator flag, but that has a couple major issues: first, moderators tend to not look at automatic flags as much, and second, if the author re-deletes and undeletes their post again, the flag will be cleared.

As far as today's situation, it would be nice to have updated statistics for the first bullet above, to see if it's still as small of a problem today as it was at the time or if it's a bigger problem today.

If it is a bigger problem (not only relatively by percentage but also absolutely by number of posts) I think the responsible thing to do here would be to attribute review deletions to the Community user - given the feature changes that took place a couple months after the decision above, such posts can now be voted for undeletion, which completely resolves that reason for not implementing at the time. But I'm not entirely sure if the volume is large enough to justify such a change.

5
  • 3
    moderators tend to not look at automatic flags as much: well you don't know that. You could also mention that if a moderator deletes a post, then OP can't undelete it. Commented May 4, 2021 at 21:00
  • "if the author re-deletes and undeletes their post again, the flag will be cleared.". Could you point me to a resource, a Meta post, or chat message, that says this? I can't find a reference for it anywhere.
    – cigien
    Commented May 4, 2021 at 21:49
  • 4
    @cigien Here it is, on the global meta. Also edited into the answer.
    – gparyani
    Commented May 4, 2021 at 22:31
  • Perfect, thanks. That certainly appears to be an unnecessary loophole, that should be easy enough to fix.
    – cigien
    Commented May 4, 2021 at 22:36
  • 1
    Thanks for the historical perspective. As you say, it would be interesting to see updated stats. What I've been noticing is increasing is the number of first posts that start off - like this one - relatively harmless, but then have spam links edited in once they've had enough time to get through first posts review (no specific numbers, just a general feeling).
    – Nick
    Commented May 5, 2021 at 1:03
17

It serves the purpose of assuming good faith / good will of the poster.

When the answer is deleted, the poster can read canned comments from reviewers (this doesn't really answer the question, blah, blah). If the poster edits the answer to add flesh to it, removes noise, converts the link-only/NAA post to a real answer (without just copying the link contents, that is), then undeletes it, then there's nothing more to do, and maybe it's the beginning of a good answer (a flagged answer with a good edit that I'm going to let live: https://stackoverflow.com/posts/67299646/revisions).

On the other hand, if the poster undeletes the answer without editing, or with a non-significant edit, this is a problem. Because some users will have to review again, maybe vote to delete, and OP can undelete again without any effort.

That's why the system provides an automatic flag for moderators: disputed low quality review (reserved for answers only).

(There are currently 18 disputed low quality review flags in the queue. Much faster to handle than the usual hundreds of custom flags).

Moderators review those flags from time to time. If the post is still link-only or still not an answer then the moderator handling the flag can delete it again. When a post is deleted by a moderator, it can only be undeleted by a moderator (some newcomers undelete their non-answers because they're desperate for help, even if it blatantly violates our rules... that's a lost battle).

If the post has been edited and shows improvement, the moderator will just mark the auto flag as helpful, maybe help with formatting and minor stuff, possibly upvote as a bonus, and that's it.

So now, if OP wants to undelete the post, they have to really improve it and custom flag it for undeletion. Gosh, more flags...

The system works!

7
  • 2
    The trouble is that there seems to be an increasing number of posters who don't have good faith/good will; their only reason for posting is to spam. Although there is a automatically generated mod flag for the situation where one of them undeletes a deleted post, mod flags can sometimes be slow to be handled, and so such posts need to be removed by regular users anyway, and having the posts resubmit to review could help this process.
    – Nick
    Commented May 5, 2021 at 1:20
  • @Nick perhaps something like the Undelete queue, available at 10k rep?
    – 10 Rep
    Commented May 5, 2021 at 2:48
  • 2
    @10Rep yes, an undelete queue could work. This has been discussed before though (here and here for example) and the consensus seems to be that a delete/undelete queue isn't a good idea.
    – Nick
    Commented May 5, 2021 at 3:08
  • @Nick: no, when a post is deleted because 6 spam flags are cast, it cannot be undeleted. I've handled a lot of those auto flags and never saw an spam. Only people undeleting crap without editing because ... it was allowed. Commented May 5, 2021 at 5:35
  • @Jean-FrançoisFabre I think you misunderstood me, what I am seeing is posts (like the one in the question) which are simply NAA or VLQ to begin with, but once they've been through first posts/late answers/LQP review are then edited to include a spam link.
    – Nick
    Commented May 5, 2021 at 6:55
  • 2
    that means some spammers know how our site work. So the spammers post a VLQ, wait for it to be deleted, then edit it with spam and undelete? Never saw the case, but I believe you Commented May 5, 2021 at 6:57
  • 1
    @Jean-FrançoisFabre not necessarily wait for it to be deleted, just long enough for it to get through review. Since any poster can view the timeline on their post, they can see when it has been through review and then edit in spam.
    – Nick
    Commented May 6, 2021 at 3:18

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .