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Last fall, we conducted a survey on why users downvote on Stack Overflow. It ran for four weeks and produced 1,455 responses. Here is what we learned.

  • Improving content quality and reducing noise are the two main motivators for users who downvote.

  • Most users downvote because the author didn’t demonstrate enough research or because the post was unclear/unhelpful.

  • On questions, users tend to downvote to inform the author. On answers, they downvote to inform other users.

  • More experienced users are more likely to leave a comment/upvote a comment or vote to close a post along with their downvote.

Who took the survey

We randomly sampled 10% of users who clicked the downvote icon on a question or answer. When they clicked to downvote, they saw a call-to-action to take the survey. More downvotes came from answers (57.2%) than questions (42.8%).

Downvoting is a privilege reserved for registered users of Stack Overflow who have a reputation of at least 125. Almost 90% of the respondents were registered users, and 56.5% actually had the downvote privilege. (Anonymous and lower-reputation users can click the downvote icon, but their votes don't affect the score.)

Reputation Percent of respondents
0-9 10.9%
10-49 13.7%
50-124 12.2%
125-1999 29.8%
2000+ 33.3%

Survey results

Why did you choose to downvote this last post? Select all that apply.

Option Percent
The post did not demonstrate that sufficient research or sufficient effort was put in by the post-author 46.94%
The question or answer was unclear or unuseful 42.54%
Other 30.17%
The post-author should make an edit 14.78%
The post was obviously spam (unsolicited advertisement) 3.44%

Half of the registered respondents chose “The post did not demonstrate that sufficient research or sufficient effort was put in by the post-author,” compared to ~35% of anonymous users. This makes sense since registered users are more likely to be familiar with the norms of Stack Overflow and the level of detail required for a question to be useful.

There were differences in downvoting behavior between questions and answers.

For questions:

  • Users wanted to improve question quality and reduce noise.

  • Off-topic questions, homework/free-coding requests and questions with a lack of detail were the most likely to receive downvotes.

  • ~70% of the respondents chose to downvote questions because the post did not demonstrate enough research or effort by the author.

  • A higher percentage of respondents also said that authors should edit questions vs. answers.

For answers:

  • Users wanted to reduce noise — especially when there were other qualified answers —  to help other users who were seeking the correct answer.

  • Answers that contained incorrect information, low quality info or off-topic material were the most likely to receive downvotes.

In addition to your downvote, what other actions did you or will you take on this post? Select all that apply.

Option Percent
I only downvoted 54.66%
I left a comment 22.49%
I upvoted an existing comment 13.91%
I voted to close 12.57%
Other 7.47%
I flagged the post 5.62%
I made/suggested an edit 5.55%
I voted to delete 5.55%
I followed the post 2.74%

70% of anonymous users noted that they “only downvoted.” This makes sense, as anonymous users do not have any of the listed privileges.

For registered users, almost 25% of respondents said that they left or would leave a comment, which is consistent with normal observed behavior on the site. The response with the next highest rate for registered users was “I upvoted an existing comment.” This suggests that in the context of downvoting, comments are primarily used as a way to provide feedback for the original poster.

When splitting by rep level, 27.5% of 2000+ rep users said that they would vote to close the question. Closing questions is a privilege that is earned at 3000 rep, so most respondents didn't have this ability.

Who do you think your downvote helps to inform?

Option Percent
Both the post-author and other users 55.61%
Other users 25.83%
The post-author 15.76%
Neither the post-author nor other users 2.80%

Registered users (>50%) were more likely to select that the downvote is for both the post-author and other users, whereas anonymous users were more likely to say that the downvote was only to help inform other users.

For downvotes on questions, respondents were more likely to note that the downvote was to help inform the post-author. For answers, the respondents were more likely to say that the downvote was for other users. This implies that for questions, the downvote was to give feedback to the original poster that there was an issue with the question, whereas for answers, it is to warn other users that there is an issue with the answer and it needs more scrutiny.

Next steps: how we'll use this data

We are in early discovery on a project to improve new user onboarding (stay tuned for a Meta post). We've identified a subset of users that we call "strugglers." These users actively participate on Stack Overflow, but experience negative outcomes from their actions, such as being downvoted often and frequently having their questions closed.

Our goal is to help these new users better understand the rules and norms of Stack Overflow so that they can participate successfully on the platform. The insights gained from this downvotes survey will help influence our approach to user onboarding.

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    I don't see anything new from these results. We already knew as much. Both downvotes and upvotes have a description when you hover over them. It is a way to rank the content. I wonder how this helps you in making further improvements.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 20:41
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    "Most users downvote because the author didn’t demonstrate enough research or because the post was unclear/unhelpful." That is what the tooltip says the downvote reason is for. I find that there are very few that vote for other reasons; and then it's normally for the user not the content and I doubt someone would admit that they did that (even in a survey).
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 20:43
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    Thank you for releasing and bringing hard data about downvotes to future discussions, whether about onboarding or beyond. I suspect (fear?) that the reaction on Meta will likely be one of "told you so," but there is still incredible value here, because we now have real numbers to reference; downvote data is now no longer purely anecdotal. I like these research initiatives a lot.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 20:44
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    Clever way of hiding how few results came from users over 2k, a rather common trend in most recent SO surveys
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 20:44
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    How do you know which users use the downvote privilege? Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 20:58
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    @Dharman This is water is wet. And as always: it's good to have data to confirm our believes.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 21:08
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    It is slightly disappointing (the data, not the research itself) that the results are as expected, but it is really nice to have a breakdown of the usual reasons for downvoting - this is tangible and a basis for something more constructive than anecdotal evidence. It would be great if we could also have a breakdown of the "Other" option (at least a high-level overview or a selection of more peculiar reasons). 30% means quite a few people had something else to say about why they voted this way.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 22:24
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    I'm trying to digest how about 40% of responses are from people who don't even have capability to down vote due to rep < 125. Or am I missing something?
    – charlietfl
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 22:28
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    oh, and another thing - it would also be nice to break 2K+ category into 2K, 5K, and 10K (maybe even 20K) as my gut feeling tells me the numbers should go higher the more rep the responder has, but cannot confirm that from the current breakdown.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 22:38
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    @KevinB We sampled downvote clicks at 10% and excluded users who received an invitation to take the Site Satisfaction Survey within the last 90 days, those who previously dismissed the Downvote Survey invitation, and those who previously clicked through to the survey. It was per vote, not first vote.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 22:47
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    @OlegValter We didn't break 2K+ category down further. To protect anonymity, we passed rep as the bands in the first table vs. raw rep numbers.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Apr 13, 2021 at 22:52
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    @charlietfl I'm not surprised that some people without sufficient rep click the up or down vote buttons (I sometimes do it accidentally myself on HNQ questions on sites that I'm not a member of). But I am surprised that the number is so high: I expected it to be more like 2 or 3%, max. I guess that indicates that there are a lot of people casually using SO who don't have a clue how it works. FWIW, I was reading SO answers for a couple of years before I decided to join, and I didn't bother reading any of the Help info before I joined (but I did read the Tour before making my first post).
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 8:23
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    @PM2Ring That is because Tour does not tell you about any limitations. You learn about them when you try to upvote or downvote without having sufficient reputation. While not being able to vote will not get you in any trouble, other uninformed actions may - and this is the core issues here. Users are not presented with rules, they don't even know there are rules, let alone punishments.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 9:18
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    This survey seems to show that people should demonstrate more research, put in more effort and formulate more clearly when posting question and answers if they want to avoid downvotes. If the goal of further studies is to make people more aware of that, I'm all for it. I hope you can come up with good ideas. Some larger singposts maybe ("If you do not show research, you'll get downvoted!"). Maybe a brainstorming on meta would also help. For a moment I thought that the company simply wants to abolish downvotes, when the downvote survey was announced. Luckily this does not seem to be the case. Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 10:28
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    A note for @Keith and others, in case they haven't thought of it this way– your personal experience on the site matters and is meaningful, full stop. As an active member of the community, your contributions and opinions are valuable! However, everyone needs to stop and consider the fact that their personal experience is only ever a small slice of the whole picture, and is almost guaranteed not to properly represent the whole. If we're going to truly make our site systems better, we can't afford act on anecdotes and hearsay alone, we have to act on real data that helps us see the whole.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Apr 26, 2021 at 13:41

10 Answers 10

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I'd really separate question and answer downvotes; they serve fundamentally different purposes. Answer votes determine the order in which answers are shown. Question votes can hide some questions from the front page, but they don't have quite the same effect as answer downvotes. And the reasons for voting on questions and answers are quite different.

I very strongly feel that "sufficient research" and "sufficient effort" are not the same at all. The main issue with a lack of effort is that it results in bad questions that are not answerable. If I don't put in the relevant details, nobody can provide a good answer, which leads to fundamentally flawed questions. "Insufficient research" is just a fancier way of saying the question is too simple. It doesn't mean the question is unanswerable. It just means the user downvoting thinks it isn't worth answering.

This whole experiment is also tainted, as the tooltip tells you why you are supposed to downvote. That doesn't mean the tooltip is right or wrong, but it's been there for a long time and many users know it's the canonical answer to why we downvote.

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    Can you clarify why you believe "Insufficient research is just a fancier way of saying the question is too simple"? For me, "Insufficient research" literally means..... "Insufficient research"! For example, if you can find some clear SO duplicate(s), or promising google matches for the question in just a few seconds, that indicates "Insufficient research", regardless of how simple (or not) the question might be.
    – skomisa
    Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 7:46
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    @skomisa true enough. A researched question can also be quite bad because research results without an understanding of how they collate can create one chaotic mess of misjudgement and code riddled with shotgun debugging attempts. It's a wonky metric to judge a question by, IMO.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 13:05
  • Another (minor) distinction that's missing: is this downvote to inform other users seeking answers, or other users who are providing answers?
    – o11c
    Commented Apr 19, 2021 at 4:20
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    Something else I'd like to mention is removing 1 reputation for downvoting answers. In my opinion, that should either be removed or applied as well to questions; I'd prefer removed.
    – M-Chen-3
    Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 18:43
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Congratulations!

It took you how long to learn what we already know...

Fine. You (the company) insist on doing things the long way.

Our goal is to help these new users better understand the rules and norms of Stack Overflow so that they can participate successfully on the platform.

How can users understand the rules better when SO is not even letting them know there are rules, let alone punishments?

The insights gained from this downvotes survey will help influence our approach to user onboarding.

I said it before and I will say it again.

JUST CLEARLY EXPLAIN THE RULES.

Preferably before people make their first post.

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    but... explaining the rules is unkind, can't have that around here
    – mxmissile
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:18
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    I was going to post this exact same answer, but you beat me to it. I suppose I can at least sleep a little easier because it doesn't seem like they're de-clawing what downvotes are based on the data that they had to collect. But I still don't think we're quite in the clear yet.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:41
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    @Makoto uh... at last, usually you are writing answers I want to write... but usually you also do a pretty good job writing them and they turn out better than the ones I imagined in my head... so maybe I was too fast this time ;)
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 16:11
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    To be honest I didn't really feel like shouting at the kids in the yard today. I'm starting to realize that the advice I'm giving them is propping up their business use case, and I'm just considering that it may be time to start charging for that instead of volunteering it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 17:06
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    @Makoto I don't like shouting, but it feels like this is the only way to get the message through. Maybe, I am wrong. But this is also kind of example, how fine print does not work when people are in hurry trying to solve their problem (when asking questions on SO). If you put something that big in front of them (it does not have to be all caps) I bet that it will not be easily ignored.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 17:12
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    I imagine a big banner for the first three asked questions saying something like "If you do not show your research or put lots of effort in your post, your posts will get heavily downvoted. This is not a joke. Take it seriously..." Then at least they were warned. Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 8:45
  • @Trilarion but big banners are bad
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 14:24
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    @KevinB Only if they advertise something unrelated ;)
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 14:27
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    Re: "JUST CLEARLY EXPLAIN THE RULES." - Well, kind of, but people don't read instructions, do they? Why not, instead, make a game out of the rules? You play the game, you pass all the challenges in the game, you complete the game, you are allowed to set up an account. Haven't completed the game? Then you can't set up an account.
    – Rounin
    Commented Apr 16, 2021 at 10:01
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    @Rounin Maybe you are right people like games ;) On more serious note, main problem is discoverability of the rules, and even sideline tips on Ask question page are out of focus. Nobody is reading the instructions because they are either well hidden or seem optional... If you have large warning that tells you all bad things that can happen if you don't follow the instructions then people might start reading them. If the don't, well now that is entirely their problem. right now there is still plenty of people willing to follow the rules, if only someone pointed them before they got in trouble
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Apr 16, 2021 at 11:13
  • "It took you how long to learn what we already know." Someone probably should have posted proof of why people vote in the announcement post if you didn't want them doing the survey.
    – BSMP
    Commented Apr 19, 2021 at 5:14
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I just want to mention that the group of "strugglers" is not homogeneous from my experience. There are two main sub-groups:

  • People who lack experience in posting content.
  • People who don't take posting on SO seriously.

Users who lack experience try their best to post good content but struggle to get the scope, structure, accessibility of their posts right. These factors get better as the users get familiar with the site by posting and reading more.

Then there are users who don't just lack experience in posting content but also get spelling, grammar and especially formatting wrong. These users often see in SO a forum where anything goes just as long as it's a sort of question/answer.

The best way to help the first group is to give them the room to make experiences.

The best way to help the second group is to make them aware of what kind of quality is expected.

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    On SO itself there's a third group: drive-bys who just want an answer to their homework problem, or to someone else's homework problem they're trying to get paid for doing. They are also counted in your group #2. The best way to help this third group is to encourage them to piss off and never come back. If only we could vote for electric shocks through the user's keyboard ...
    – davidbak
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 0:27
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    @davidbak But, um, that, um, would be, um,... unwelcoming ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 2:07
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    @41686d6564 - Yes, indeed. I'm all in favor of welcoming those who deserve welcoming. But I'm also asking for the use of judgement in that. There are some who don't belong, who don't want to make an effort to belong, on whom effort to make them belong is not just wasted but impossible and actually detrimental. And, frankly, at least on SO itself, it isn't even a tough choice with close calls. These people are obvious. (But actually, I suspect you're ... kidding around ... eh?)
    – davidbak
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 2:11
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    @davidbak Of course, I was being sarcastic :)
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 2:41
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    Many posts have much bigger more fundamental issues than spelling, grammar and formatting which can't relatively easily be fixed by some random editor. Poor spelling, grammar and formatting also doesn't always mean they don't take posting seriously. They may just not consider those specific factors to be particularly important (which I agree with if the post is easy enough to fix), they may not be proficient at English, they may not understand formatting (which may be due to laziness, confusion or feeling intimidated) or they may lack the natural attention-to-detail to easily avoid such issues Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 9:24
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    @BernhardBarker it may sound harsh, but people who “just not consider those specific factors to be particularly important” should most probably stop programming and get a different job. Compilers do not forgive poor spelling and grammar, wrong formatting will lead to logical errors, and not paying attention to details will backfire. We should not support people who think “programming” means “dumping word diarrhea on Stackoverflow and copy whatever code that gives in return into my editor”.
    – Holger
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 11:21
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    @BernhardBarker The onus is always on the asker to make their question as easy to answer as possible. If they aren't doing that for any reason, that is not our problem, nor should it be. Stack Overflow does not exist to teach fundamental basics of programming, never mind those of English.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 11:38
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    @IanKemp What's the logic behind putting the responsibility of high quality of a post entirely on a poster? If we are striving to "build a library of detailed answers to every* question about programming", and if there are people willing to fix issues in posts (which there are), then it seems only logical to allow posts with some spelling, formatting and other issues we can fix. One could perhaps argue it's not sustainable, but there are much worse issues with posts, so it's like cutting off a finger because of a tiny cut while ignoring the hole in your chest. Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 12:39
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    @BernhardBarker We’re not talking about misspelling of a few words, that can be fixed with a plain edit. You were talking about “poor spelling, grammar and formatting” and that the author “may just not consider those specific factors to be particularly important” … “due to laziness, confusion or feeling intimidated”. I’ve never seen a poorly written question due to the author “feeling [too] intimidated” to write a good question. Rather, it’s the opposite, the author being overconfident that dropping shit and yelling “gimme the code” was fine.
    – Holger
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 13:22
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    @Holger Again, if the question has no value and/or is off topic, then that in itself is a reason to get rid of it. Good or bad spelling, grammar and/or formatting wouldn't change that. If, on the other hand, the only issue with a question is spelling, grammar and/or formatting, then it can indeed be fixed with a plain edit. Unless the spelling, grammar and/or formatting is so bad that you can't reasonably figure out what's being asked, but then the question is unclear and that would be the reason to get rid of it (not directly because of the spelling, grammar and/or formatting). Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:13
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    I don't expect consistent, proper writing so much as I expect writing that is coherent. I'm somewhat forgiving of poor spelling and grammar, and punctuation as long as it's not .... exaggerated ..... like this !!!! A lot of incredibly messy code still compiles as long as it doesn't break any grammar rules, particularly in the majority of languages where whitespace is largely insignificant. But when someone is struggling to write coherent sentences, I don't want to say they're not welcome on the site so much as that we simply don't have the resources to support them every time.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:19
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    There are many incoherent questions that get cleared out each day, but they don't make up some overwhelming percentage of daily incoming content. Most content I see each day is more or less readable, only that not enough research effort and understanding are demonstrated most of the time. I really couldn't care less that a question was poorly written to begin with if it clearly shows the asker has put thought into the question and understands what they are trying to do. That's where edits come in.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:22
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    To be completely transparent, I used to be as snobbish about poorly written questions for the longest time. I'm more tolerant of them now, even though I do wonder why the majority of questions are poorly written and there aren't more people who can write decently well posting questions.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:38
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    For the second group, the underlying reason is (in most cases) the minimum-effort attitude. They don't actually lack skills; they just couldn't care less about their readers. (OK, 'care less' is muddled, but it should be clear from context.) Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 15:15
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    I do wonder why the majority of questions are poorly written and there aren't more people who can write decently well posting questions - outside of emerging technologies, I think the key factor is that most of the common questions have already been asked and answered. And (my hypothesis) that there's a correlation between 1. ability to write clearly (and formulate the problem into an SO question) with 2. ability (and willingness) to search for an answer before bothering other people to ask them to spend their time on it. i.e. general competence and/or courtesy. Commented Apr 16, 2021 at 7:05
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An interesting question to ask would have been "Have you ever gone back to a question you downvoted, and removed the downvote?"

I feel that downvotes are actually more destructive than closing a question.

If I downvote, that downvote stays. I have the option to remove it if the question is edited, but really I'm not going to go back and check all the low-quality questions I've ever seen. There's currently no prompt to do so, and so no easy method of doing it.

The idea is that if the question is edited to be a better question, it might start attracting upvotes. But when it has a negative score it is already less visible, and when it isn't a new question, it is also less visible, so I doubt that often happens in reality.

However, if I close a question, one of the review queue actions is specifically about reopening closed questions if they've been edited. Even better, you don't rely on the same people who closed a question to reopen it!

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    This... is information that SE already have. There are upvotes and unupvotes, downvotes and undownvotes, accept and unaccept events registered in the database.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 15:33
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    Along the lines of "which posts have been edited since I (down)voted", I had a similar thought and discovered that someone had solved this particular problem from the client-side: stackapps.com/q/6755/39209. It'd be great if Stack Exchange could incorporate that as a core function. Thought I'd point you to the client-side version in case you're interested. Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 15:58
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    I agree with this wise observation by @SpoonMeiser. Downvotes of questions are typically forever for a decade or more, even long after the question has been drastically improved to be spectacular. Commented Apr 23, 2021 at 22:57
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In the case of downvotes on answers, I would love to know the break down of accepted vs top vs everything else of these results. Is the top/accepted answer more likely downvoted in the sample? Do the reasons for downvotes they differ between them? Etc. Basically a contingency table of the position/order of the downvoted answer against all other variables.

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Given these findings & goals:

We are in early discovery on a project to improve new user onboarding (stay tuned for a Meta post). We've identified a subset of users that we call "strugglers." These users actively participate on Stack Overflow, but experience negative outcomes from their actions, such as being downvoted often ...

Our goal is to help these new users better understand the rules and norms of Stack Overflow so that they can participate successfully on the platform.

If you don't already know about the Natty bot in the SOBotics chat room, it watches for posts that are in the Answer box but have indications that they're really new Questions. Many of the "Answers" accumulate downvotes before they get reviewed and eventually deleted. That fits the definition of a "struggler" to me and their first experience is obviously a negative one, even without any canned review comments.

My suggestion would be to incorporate the idea behind Natty into Stack Exchange so that if a potential "Answer" scores highly enough as a non-Answer, the user is intercepted with additional guidance on the "rules and norms of Stack Overflow". You'll save grief on the part of the new user and among the reviewer community.

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    From my experience with clearing Natty's reports, I can say with confidence that the answers that fall into Natty's auto-flagging/commenting category are so poorly written that the author couldn't care less about reading the rules or norms of SO. I always leave canned comments on such answers but I get positive responses very very rarely. Most people just ignore them.
    – Sabito
    Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 16:52
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    Perhaps there's a lower limit then, to the kind of user that participates on SO. Even if the user is blocked from participating, then there's the follow-on benefit to smaller review queues and less-exasperated reviewers. Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 17:08
  • False positives might cause confusion. :(
    – Sabito
    Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 17:08
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    Understood, and the thresholds/criteria are obviously up to people who are smarter than me, but it seems that the existing bot has a nice scoring mechanism as a starting point. Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 17:15
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    Yep true. I think this discussion is similar to this: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/343065/… There are some very good points there.
    – Sabito
    Commented Apr 21, 2021 at 17:17
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    We already have that. It doesn't work. People ignore warnings and all information. Sometimes they will apologize but that doesn't stop them from posting a question as an answer.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Apr 26, 2021 at 18:10
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Having a more detailed image of reasons behind downvotes is useful. But that's just a detailed part of a much bigger image.

I always believed that part of the scope of Stack Overflow is not just about giving/receiving answers, but the learning aspect, both for people asking questions as for those answering.

Being a teacher myself I know this very well: teaching is learning. And a fundamental aspect of teaching is not only point out errors to your students and correct them, but to teach them how to avoid those errors - and learn how to teach that myself.

As answerers, many of us don't just give solutions, but also methods that allow users to not repeat mistakes by explaining the reasons behind good/best practices, not only for the specific subject of the post, but also about related aspects (syntax, implementation optimization, styling/naming conventions, etc.) and question making.

The last part is the most sensitive problem for new users.

Long time users are usually experienced enough (with the website and programming in general) to understand the reasons behind downvotes on their own; when in doubt they know they can ask for clarifications in comments, but it's often unnecessary as the question is probably already written in a way that downvoters will probably already comment about it.

To most people (beginners in both programming or SO practices), a downvote is like a bad school grade given without explanation. Most of them even take it very personally (we've all seen new users losing their temper after few questions that take immediate downvotes), and there's often the case of users that delete a downvoted answer and then just create a new one almost identical (which usually results in even more downvotes).

One of the things I teach since the very first lesson is how to deal with mistakes, and the first step is to be able to recognize them. One of the biggest problems with votes and reputation systems is that most of the times the user doesn't know the meaning behind a downvote, the reason for it and how they can improve both the question at hand and their future questions to avoid them. Even if there's often a comment about that, the amount of bad quality questions from new users is so big that even patient people get annoyed and just give up explaining in the long run.

Then, as pointed out, there's the problem that downvotes are often forgotten. I downvote, a lot, but I retract as much as possible as soon as the author edits the post in a valid way. But that doesn't happen often: there's no notification, no easy search method, and there is no easy way to find them back. And that gets even worse for niche tags, questions that get very little attention since the beginning and even less after downvotes, so, even after editing, the downvotes remain, the question gets ignored and we're back to the beginning: the user doesn't know what to do, and will probably leave the community or just ask other bad questions again and again.

There's very little point in knowing the specific reasons for which we downvote, if the target of those downvotes don't know that. And they should be able to know that before they get possibly downvoted.

As a teacher, my job is not to point out mistakes, but to teach how to avoid and deal with them in the first place, since the very first lesson. And I strongly believe that this is the main issue here: it is our responsibility to give reasons about downvotes, but our role should be to talk about programming issues, not how to ask questions; that is your responsibility, to prevent that we even downvote for those reasons.

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    What do you teach? Playing musical instruments? What kind of mistakes do your students make? Commented Apr 26, 2021 at 12:16
  • 4
    @PeterMortensen I primarily teach classical percussions and drums, but also theory and practice in general. There's obviously a high range of mistakes, depending on the age and experience. The most common "practical" mistakes are all related to timing in some way, including wrong notes (which is due to insufficient practice at correct tempos), but, in reality, the most common and important one is, coincidentally, misunderstanding what a mistake is (and how to deal with them), and then not being able to correctly recognize mistakes or where they actually reside (not unlike XY problems). Commented Apr 26, 2021 at 14:11
6

I'm disappointed in the fact that the "I only downvoted" category was not broken down into:

  • "I only downvoted, and there was already a comment explaining my reason for the downvote (which I didn't upvote)" vs.
  • "I only downvoted, and there was no comment explaining my reason for the downvote".

because the former action is acceptable (though I would recommend against it; one should upvote the comment), while the latter action is IMHO deplorable.

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    It looks like you are saying that you find it deplorable to downvote a post without leaving a comment. Users are not required to explain downvotes, just like they are not required to explain upvotes. Why would that be deplorable? Commented Apr 19, 2021 at 17:35
  • 10
    @MarcoBonelli: An action doesn't have to be forbidden to be deplorable... but to answer your question: If you just downvoted, you haven't helped the author understand what's wrong with their question, and have not opened a path for them to rectify it. It hurts to be downvoted, and silent downvotes, to a newbie user, can feel a bit like a drive-by shooting. So the least we should do is say what's wrong.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Apr 19, 2021 at 21:07
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    And to be perfectly honest - I hate when people do this to me personally, and I can't guess what bugged them about the question. Like in this one just now.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Apr 19, 2021 at 21:09
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    The idea that downvoters should provide feedback imply that they also should just put up with whatever abuse that may come afterwards, all for the sake of assisting a single asker who may or may not be in position to take it constructively. This is not unheard of and should not be neglected. Since votes serve mostly as a signal to everyone who sees the question (as made evident by this survey), a vote already serves its purpose. As for the hurt of receiving downvotes, they should definitely not be hurtful and everyone should take them less personally. We can't say the same for real abuse.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 8:26
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    @E_net4thecopycat: 1. I personally never experienced any abuse after downvoting and explaining my downvote. Certainly, people try to explain/justify, but that's a legitimate part of the editing/review process, isn't it? 2. "This is not unheard of" <- do you have any statistics about the prevalence of this phenomenon? IMHO and to my knowledge, this is negligible. 3. Verbal abuse of downvoters will likely be met with a very negative response from other users and possibly moderators.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 8:34
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    @E_net4thecopycat: 1. Anonymous downvotes without a stated cause already constitute a non-welcoming and somewhat disrespectful environment. And indeed, SO is infamous for its downvote culture (albeit not only for anonymous downvotes) - as opposed to other SX websites, where curators are much more likely to make comments and typically delay their downvoting.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 13:05
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    Still on point 3, from the moment those comments are posted, the damage is already done. So it's only natural for people to avoid becoming a target. On 1, I would say it goes both ways. Such a fiery stance against downvoters (esp. without leaving comments) does not at all contribute to reversing this modus operandi. For one, shaming those users seems like the perfect way to drive them even further away from the site, and from doing the actions that we don't want to discourage. In other simple words, shaming is not OK.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 13:51
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    On 2, we cannot just take the last 24h of a relatively calm day and call it representative. Looking just a few days further back, we can see gems such as calling downvoters "perverts", a few of the form "if you can't answer, shut up", "Stupid closing-freaks", and so on. One should not exclude comments which came from escalation, especially because the escalation could have never started to begin with by refraining from leaving a comment.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 13:52
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    I stand on them not being negligible, because the poor experience after one comment out of dozens is bad enough that it just disincentivizes future commenting. It may be right that not all comments were a consequence of a downvote accompanied by a comment, but users are known to conflate these actions and lash out regardless. Alas, not everyone follows this advice.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 15:27
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    Agree with @einpoklum that a downvote on a question with no explanation, like in his applicably linked example is neither welcoming nor helpful.
    – Evan
    Commented Apr 20, 2021 at 21:15
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    @SergeBallesta: You delete your own answers because of opaque downvote? :-(
    – einpoklum
    Commented Apr 27, 2021 at 14:26
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    "After all an answer that has only downvotes cannot have a great value" <- Oh, but that's not true. It could be downvoted for various flaws while still having values; or it could simply be misunderstood; or it's an opinionated answer downvoted by people who disapprove of its perspective. You should trust your own judgement and let your answer stand. Let the OP be the judge of whether it helps them or not.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Apr 27, 2021 at 15:21
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    @einpoklum - I'd also say let the time be the judge of the merits of the answer. So what if it got a single downvote (maybe even multiple) if one is adamant they are correct? After a while, the dust settles, and good answers usually start accumulating upvotes.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 27, 2021 at 15:47
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    @OlegValter: That's only sometimes true. For niche questions, months and years can pass between votes. But yes, time is also a factor.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Apr 27, 2021 at 16:38
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    @einpoklum - true, can't argue with that (although it was my understanding that obscure tags usually have a small number of active maintainers who usually engage on most questions just because the volume is so low. While with popular tags it is usually easier to vote and move on - not unlike the difference in dynamic between cities and villages [I think someone brought it up before])
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 27, 2021 at 16:43
-3

Study finds, most of the respondents say they use a feature as it's supposed to be used.

Not surprising. Not sure what could have come out of that survey with those options. So... we now know that we know.

In other news, Karl Ranseier is dead.

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    Why is collecting data to support something we "know" a bad thing?
    – BDL
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 10:58
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    They could have done something useful with that money. It's not like the survey actually left room for another outcome. You ask people that clicked a button whether they did it because they wanted to click the button for the official reasons for clicking the button. Most of them say yes. About as useful as asking pedestrians why they walk on green. You will find most like their life enough to prefer not getting run over by a car. Data? Sure. Data that is supporting any kind of action or any new insight? No. And the cost was not 0, so... it could have been spent on not finding out the obvious.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 11:02
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    Collecting the data to support our claims is not wrong, but what is uncertain is how does this help us in making further decisions. It feels like the company is back to square one.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 11:02
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    if "Why did you downvote" would have been the only question, that might be true. But the findings about who the downvote is targeted to (op, other readers), is something I personally find rather interesting. This could be the basis for developing a better workflow for cases where the downvote is targeted for op instead for future readers.
    – BDL
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 11:12
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    Just out of curiosity, if I took all the number in the report and shuffled them randomly, wouldn't you be able to say exactly the same as you just did? That's what I mean... it's meaningless.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 11:24
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    Not many people will be as dead as Karl, I guess ;)
    – rene
    Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 11:29
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    @nvoigt sometimes people with management power to make decisions is simply so blind of what's going on down there and so unaware of the reality of the community, that the only way to explain them why is downvoting a problem and why something should be done to address it, is by showing them a nice Powerpoint with beautiful charts showing how many people in SO thought the question needed more detail. That's probably why they needed a survey to answer such an obvious question. Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 14:45
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    This is the only answer that deals with the shortcomings of the survey. (the downvotes are no surprise) No methodology was explained what error rate was expected from those who downvoted for "Sour Grapes" reasons, but would answer the survey by picking the most convenient answer. There is no rhyme or reason for many downvotes of 100% technically correct answers by 100K rep users, or the daily occurrence of the "Me too" downvotes that pile up where none or one would be all that is warranted. Glad you are looking at the issue, but as with most efforts, it misses a large part of the problem. Commented Apr 14, 2021 at 21:12
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    From RTL Samstag Nacht: "Karl Ranseier was a recurring character featured in fake news reports telling about his death at the end of each episode. The name Karl Ranseier has become a catchphrase in Germany that has led to its own joke category of Ranseiers which are in widespread usage outside of the comedy origin." Commented Apr 15, 2021 at 15:26
  • @Dharman What if it is back to square one? Commented Apr 17, 2021 at 7:52
-6

It feels like SO knows it needs to change, but it doesn't know how. It looks like many people don't agree on this.

My understanding is that downvoting is mostly "you've wasted my time by not spending yours wisely" or "you're not only not contributing anything useful - you're actively making things worse".

I don't have an answer, but I'm not sure the results of a survey qualify as a question, so I'm just going to speak my mind as a newcomer.

I'm kind of shocked at the mentality of a lot of the comments here. Seeing some fairly negative comments with dozens/hundreds of upvotes makes me question whether an upvote survey to assess the health and sanity of the SO community might be as/if not more informative.

Don't take this personally. As a newcomer I'm learning from all of you how I should behave. But some of what I'm seeing doesn't look healthy, sustainable or constructive.

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    Perhaps a link to those posts rather than the link you provided to something unrelated (and political) would be more constructive?
    – lys
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 7:32
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    interesting you post this. Nowhere in my post have I suggested that downvotes are bad, ineffective or should be removed. In fact I made no pejorative comment about downvoting whatsoever. And you’ve twice now suggested I need to research this - when clearly you’ve mistaken the point that I actually made - and lead the charge for downvoting my answer. You’ve been aggressive, offtopic, unnecessarily political and then apologetic. this answer is my own form of research. thanks for contributing :)
    – lys
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 14:17
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    Hm... Yeah, you are right, I re-read and realized that I misunderstood your answer. I have deleted my comments. Sorry.
    – Sabito
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 14:24
  • Unexpected and pretty unnecessary. No need for apologies. Pay it forward, not backward. A constructive exchange I feel, nonetheless.
    – lys
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 15:06
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    Wonder how many downvotes can be attributed to “I misunderstood / overreacted” - the survey here doesn’t consider it. My point here is that upvoting can be weaponised in the same manner as downvoting - but neither are inherently destructive - it’s purely down to the intentions of the community member. Upvoting can be used to entrench both negative and positive behaviours - same as downvoting. Really obvious here on Meta. Seems like this is where people just take out their frustrations on each other where they care less about rep. like an uncomfortable work party where coworkers are drunk
    – lys
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 15:36
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    Meta already receives a fair share of accusations of toxicity for things which can actually be quite reasonably justified. Presenting concrete examples of comments which you find put the sanity of the commenters to question would definitely help clarify this answer.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 16:13
  • Agreed, thanks for highlighting this. I clearly feel comfortable enough to speak up but not comfortable enough to point fingers directly and engage or directly provoke conflict with some senior members when they are gathered in groups and upvoting each other like high fives. I’m comfortable enough having this post being a perfect demonstration of the issues with experienced members completely misinterpreting the sentiment of a post and causing a downvote pile on. It’s not particularly useful to have the comments that were made deleted. But evidences the point well.
    – lys
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 16:29
  • You don't, nor are supposed to, confront directly with users, but to show expressions which in your opinion are heavily problematic. High rep users, despite some folklore outside the network, are not above the rules of proper conduct. On the other hand, witch hunting and finger pointing isn't condoned either.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 22:23
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    Regardless, what seemingly happened here at best was one person misunderstanding the sentiment of this answer. It does not imply that the surge of downvotes came in light of an equivalent interpretation. For what it's worth, stating that what is going on here " doesn't look healthy, sustainable or constructive", without any evidence and without being clear of what part of the exchange you were referring to, would be enough of a reason to downvote.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 22:23
  • Thanks, that’s great clarity. Your perspective here helped me to understand Meta a little better. I see now and agree. Nothing on SX should be without evidence - and that’s the strength of the platform.
    – lys
    Commented Apr 25, 2021 at 23:44

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