53

This morning I came across a bountied question. It only had one answer, and the answer was wrong, so I downvoted it and left a comment explaining why it was wrong (it would have messed OP's files).

The question itself looked like something that should be easily doable, though; so I spent some time crafting and testing a solution, and some 20 minutes later I posted a correct answer myself.

Now here comes the problem: after I posted my answer, the author of the first answer edited theirs to copy my solution.
If we end up having the same score, the bounty will go to them, since their answer was the first one to be posted, even if it was later changed. Bit unfair, isn't it?

I already dealt with the plagiarism part by flagging the answer, as suggested in other Meta posts about this. But this is a behavior that I think can be exploited to get an advantage in bountied questions, especially in low-traffic tags:

  1. Post incomplete/wrong answer to bountied question.
  2. Wait for better answers to offer better/full/correct answers (Cunningham's Law, anybody?)
  3. Edit answer to include correct/full solution.
  4. In case of a tie, get bounty thanks to being the "first answer". Maybe even be manually awarded the bounty, since your answer would appear correct and on top of the others (if you order by Active).

So, in a more general sense, what can be done to deter the above behavior? Making the bounty go to the answer with the oldest last revision, maybe? As in, if you edit your answer after other answers have been posted, then your answer should not be considered the "first" anymore?

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    It looks like the bounty was awarded manually by the poster, not automatically. They accepted your answer but awarded the bounty to the other answer, curiously.
    – yivi
    Mar 15, 2021 at 16:41
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    This doesn't look like a plagiarism case, IMO. The changes in the first answer were quite superficial, they didn't copy from your answer in any way. This is based on two false premises: this was not resolved by bounty auto-assignment rules, and this is not a plagiarism case.
    – yivi
    Mar 15, 2021 at 16:44
  • 1
    Even if a mod/staff member does agree with the plagiarism allegation, it won't change the bounty result. At best a staff member might be able to refund the Asker, but I doubt moderators can do that.
    – Thom A
    Mar 15, 2021 at 16:46
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    @yivi I started to write this question before the bounty was awarded. I now see that, in the meantime, the OP decided to take the Solomon route and accept one answer (mine) and award the bounty to the other one (the formerly-wrong one).
    – walen
    Mar 15, 2021 at 16:59
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    @yivi Also: "The changes in the first answer were quite superficial" → The changes only look superficial because the other answer is very verbose. But said changes are all the difference between adding a line to all files vs completely mangling all files by adding a line after every line break. Akin to saying that editing rm -rf to rm -f is superficial.
    – walen
    Mar 15, 2021 at 17:03
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    I edited the question to remove the link. Since there's nothing to do about the bounty anymore, I'd rather discuss the more general scenario.
    – walen
    Mar 15, 2021 at 17:34
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    Frankly, a proper attribution in the edit could've saved everyone a lot of trouble. As for the general scenario, this case presents an interesting problem with the bounty system - as it is certainly an exploitable loophole. Mar 15, 2021 at 18:35
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    I guess I should thank you for removing the link to the question because otherwise I'd have gotten a lot more down-votes than I already have (and keep on getting). That said, I think you have been reimbursed both material and emotional losses.
    – baduker
    Mar 15, 2021 at 19:51
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    Understandably, anyone writing good answers are quite invested in them and it's easy to get caught up in the moment. But really, (a) this is a really specific scenario as rene pointed out and should be handled individually (b) the system isn't perfect, neither can it be, and you cope with the lesser problems.
    – Passer By
    Mar 16, 2021 at 0:12
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    @baduker I understand your feelings, but please stop playing victim. Before you copied my solution, your initially wrong answer was sitting at +1/-1 (net +8 rep), and now thanks to Meta it's enjoying a +8/-4 score (net +72 rep), not to mention you also got the +50 bounty. I think that's a more than fair "reward" given the circumstances.
    – walen
    Mar 16, 2021 at 8:52
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    If anyone's playing the victim, it's you. I don't care about the bounty nor the up-votes. They can take them all back. Whatever. The point is that you have a twisted definition of plagiarism. If we go by it, would you expect the OP to credit your solution if the OP uses your regex in their work / code? The entire Internet is based on someone else's work. If so, you should be crediting Stephen Cole Kleene upon whose work you've created your regex. Oh, and don't forget to attribute Sir Tim Berners-Lee for your use of his HTML.
    – baduker
    Mar 16, 2021 at 9:06
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    [1] You will probably forget all about it in the next 2 weeks. Also keep focusing on giving high quality answers in good questions and the reps will come naturally regardless if people plagiarize you or not. Mar 16, 2021 at 20:15
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    The hapless OP though will probably remember this for a long time; apparently due to the meta effect, their question now has a net of 11 (!) downvotes. (There is a number of upvotes too, probably out of pity; currently at +6 / -17.)
    – tripleee
    Mar 17, 2021 at 6:08
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    @tripleee - also stats of the day: both answers now at +10 score, while the question is at -10. Maybe posts on main should become auto-locked for a while after they are linked to on meta. Mar 17, 2021 at 6:19

5 Answers 5

48

in a more general sense, what can be done to deter the above behavior?

Nothing needs to be done.

The abuse vector is limited and complex to execute. I admit if executed flawlessly it is hard to detect but I doubt you'll find a handful of similar cases.

I'm also not 100% convinced on the plagiarism accusations. For sure the OP got inspired by your answer and abandoned their earlier approach to match yours. But honestly: searching and replacing in files with a regex is beaten to death. Anyone that posts an answer can then be called a plagiarist.

So I hope the meta post and your flag reach your goal of doing justice to a case you're heavily involved in. For general far reaching changes to the gamification mechanics of the site maybe collect some more impartial evidence to prove the observed behavior is a pattern with more negative than positive side effects.

Based on a sample size of one, we're not going to make too drastic changes that happen to favor your specific case.

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    Also, this is not really specific to bounties. The question title could be changed to "Post incorrect answer first, copy correct solution from another answer later, get more upvotes or your accepted answer". The system doesn't just award the bounty to the oldest answer. A bounty can either be awarded manually or be awarded (partially/fully) to the most upvoted answer. The only case where the answer's creation time plays a factor is if both answers have the same score and the score is >=2. [1/2] Mar 15, 2021 at 19:00
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    If the edited answer contains plagiarism, gets a net score of 2 or more, and the community/moderators don't deal with it, that would be a problem, regardless of whether or not it's subject to receiving a bounty. [2/2] Mar 15, 2021 at 19:00
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    Are you trying to write the ultimate How to cheat guidance?
    – rene
    Mar 15, 2021 at 19:18
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    @rene time to edit your answer with the guidance and get all the sweet meta rep from it! Mar 15, 2021 at 20:18
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    "Welcome to StackOverflow! Please, read our How to cheat guidance before editing". I'll see myself out... Mar 16, 2021 at 7:44
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    Oh, this is about regex? In that case the question should probably have just been closed as a dupe and the bounty refunded/canceled...
    – TylerH
    Mar 16, 2021 at 15:38
  • It seems useful to bring to your attention that i have found , in the last few months, copy&paste of SO/SE unanswered / partially answered questions on other Q&A sites like cora. Always the same user on theses sites. It seems it's some kind of bot crawling. I guess there is a reputation race behind. However, if it's help getting answers on old unanswered questions, maybe there is no harm.
    – Zilog80
    Mar 19, 2021 at 1:07
  • @Zilog80 I have no idea why my attention is needed: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/342516
    – rene
    Mar 19, 2021 at 6:43
  • @rene Sorry, i should not have bother you with that. As you were answering here about abuse vectors, i had wrongfully thought that this point could present some interest here.
    – Zilog80
    Mar 19, 2021 at 8:56
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    @Zilog80 okay, I see. It doesn't look like the issue is directly related to the exact Q/A problem I try to address here. If you get inspired by my answer and the link I offered earlier doesn't answer your concern feel free to start a new Meta post. Be warned that a discussion about stuff on other sites not always goes down well so prepare well (research! A lot!) and consider what you want to as end result from the users that form the (meta) community.
    – rene
    Mar 19, 2021 at 9:23
37

Since I'm part (cause?) of this controversy, let me offer an insight into how it looks like from my side of the table.

It was me that offered the initial solution to the OP's problem, a vague one though, as there was no real matter to work with (i.e. the config files themselves). All we had was a request for a feature that wasn't readily available in IDE in the OP's opinion (or to the best of the OP's knowledge).

It was me that outlined all the steps to, well, nudge the OP in the right direction, by illustrating the whole solution with some (poorly) designed mock files.

It was me that made the erroneous assumptions about the substitutions that were needed to achieve the desired end-result.

But it was you that pointed this (my mistake) out (indirectly, through comments).

It was you that offered, in my opinion, a fix to my flawed logic of using new line replacement to hack my way towards the desired result. However, the mechanics of the solution were already there in the very first version of the answer.

Having said all that, I do not think I have committed plagiarism. I have improved the answer based on what you've provided. I didn't merely copy-paste your entire approach, as I've already had that figured out (most of it, I reckon).

Nonetheless, I apologize if you feel like you've been cheated (robbed of the bounty?). I did not intend to make you feel that way.

Also, the bounty was manually awarded, so I can't really offer you neither any explanation nor a refund.

EDIT:

I just saw the OP's comment on awarding the bounty by mistake. I'm fine with the mods taking the bounty away. I'll then remove my answer.

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    "I do not think I have committed a plagiarism. I have improved the answer based on what you've provided." → Using someone else's work, be it whole or just part of it, without crediting them is the definition of plagiarism, I think. If your edit were along the lines of "Based on walen's answer (link), the regex you have to use is actually this and that..." then my reaction would have been different. Also, I found it weird that my answer was downvoted shortly after you edited yours -- it may or may not have come from you, but it set the wrong mood.
    – walen
    Mar 15, 2021 at 17:15
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    Anyways, my intention is now to edit this question to remove the link to the answer (to stop the Meta effect) and make it about the last part, i.e. how to tweak the bounty system so answers that get posted first but edited later do not count as "first" in a tie.
    – walen
    Mar 15, 2021 at 17:17
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    I would not be surprised if moving the bounty like that isn't in the mod toolbox; might require dev access - in which case one option to make things right without a SE dev would be to offer a bounty on a good question with a good answer by the other guy - if you wanted. Mar 15, 2021 at 18:47
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    @walen I don't read the question yet, but it seems to me that you are using someone else work first. With your definition of plagiarism almost all answers are plagiarism, since all work is somehow related to the work of others. Rethinking ideas doesn't mean, that they are copied.
    – akop
    Mar 15, 2021 at 20:11
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    @akop, stricktly speaking plagiarism is "representation of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions as one's own original work". Prominently giving credits to another answer is a possible workaround in current situation, though unless the answer adds something useful it's better to be deleted, second answer with identical solution doesn't have value for future readers.
    – Sinatr
    Mar 16, 2021 at 9:06
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    @Sinatr baduker's answer includes an alternative solution using the Linux shell, which has value on its own. I don't think it should be deleted, just edited.
    – walen
    Mar 16, 2021 at 10:37
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    Just FYI, mods cannot award bounties, nor can we change to whom the bounty is given after being awarded. If you want the rep to go to the other poster, just offer your own bounty and award it to them.
    – Machavity Mod
    Mar 16, 2021 at 18:09
20

So, in a more general sense, what can be done to deter the above behavior? Making the bounty go to the answer with the oldest last revision, maybe?

It's not really a common problem that needs a solution.

The behavior of just stealing is very bad etiquette. If you copy someone else's work, you should credit it.

However in this case, you can hardly call it plagiarism. The "stolen" lines are these:

(.)\Z
$1

Calling this plagiarism is a very far stretch. It's like claiming copyright to one single chord in music.

Speaking of which, let's take a look at badukers answer:

Then, in your project, go to Edit > Find > Replace in Path or Ctrl+Shift+R (On Windows & Linux) or Shift+Command+R on MacOS.

And then yours:

Just use Replace in Files (Edit → Find → Replace in Files, or Ctrl+Shift+R in Windows and Linux / ⌘+Shift+R in Mac) to replace this regex:

Well, they are VERY similar. It looks like you pretty much copied badukers answer and reworded it a bit. My point here is that often there is one or very few obvious solutions to a problem. You cannot really blame someone for copying your answer just because they include the necessary parts.

I actually posted an example of precisely that recently, which you can read here: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/406000/6699433

The relevant part:

I often cite the source when I copy code. It can be another answer or a completely different site. However, I usually don't do it when there's basically only one way to do it. Let's say that the question is "How do I error check malloc?", then I would not cite a source for a snippet like this:

int *p = malloc(sizeof *p * size);
if(!p) 
    exit(EXIT_FAILURE);

because this is pretty much how it's done. It's a real school book example. I would not blame anyone "stealing" a snippet like that anymore than I would blame anyone who "steals" a recipe for hard boiled eggs that says "Boil the eggs for 8 minutes".

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    You realize those are the actual IntelliJ menus and shortcuts, right? (If you intended your answer to be sarcastic, sorry for missing it.)
    – walen
    Mar 16, 2021 at 17:39
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    @walen Yes, I do realize it. But sometimes there is one obvious solution to a problem. And this applies to code too. Yes, it was intended to be a bit sarcastic, but maybe I should clarify it. ;)
    – klutt
    Mar 16, 2021 at 17:57
  • @walen I have updated it now.
    – klutt
    Mar 16, 2021 at 18:33
  • @walen Btw, hope you did not get offended. That was not my purpose. I also upvoted this question. Even though I don't agree it's plagiarism, I still think it's a good question.
    – klutt
    Mar 16, 2021 at 19:01
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    @klutt - you are absolutely correct, under normal circumstances, the similarity wouldn't cause anyone to even flinch, the only reason why this happened is that initially, steps 5&6 were different. Then the OP commented on the other approach being faulty, after which the second answer was edited to incorporate the approach of the first one without attribution. All of this happened on a post with a bounty on it, and the bounty went to the second answer. [1/2] Mar 17, 2021 at 0:14
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    [2/2] This unfortunate set of circumstances is exactly what lead to the heated situation - which, I think, is a good illustration of the loophole the bounty system presents, even if in this case the intentions may not have been malicious. Frankly, the bounty system as a whole looks a bit distasteful to me (except for those cases where reputable users want to apply bounties to existing posts) - it sustains an atmosphere of unhealthy competition and is basically a version of a "pay to win" button (in the case of SO - "pay to get answered") Mar 17, 2021 at 0:14
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    @klutt No offense at all. People can have different opinions and points of view. I will defend mine as long as I think my arguments are more sound, but I won't be offended by someone else defending the contrary as long as they keep it civil and based on reason.
    – walen
    Mar 17, 2021 at 8:49
9

In reference to your question about addressing this on a more general level, I wanted to bring up one other aspect related to this situation that I haven't seen get mentioned here yet (at least by name). It's called Stack Overflow's Fastest Gun in the West Problem:

Each question's answers are sorted by descending score. This means that if a person sits down and answers a question in a long, thorough way, [. . .] once they post their answer, it will already be one of about seven different ones, some of which have already been upvoted. This wouldn't be a problem if those answers were as thorough as the one this guy's posting, but they usually aren't. Some of them are downright wrong, some aren't even answers to the question asked because their poster didn't bother to read the question all the way through.

In other words, due to system design, answering fast > answering well. Answers posted first will almost always receive more eyes, and often more votes, than answers arriving later, even if later answers are better, more thorough, or actually more correct (the recent Outdated Answers project is on some level dealing with this same phenomena); this is especially true on questions and tags with larger numbers of viewers.

(Just to be crystal clear— I don't say this to endorse using this tactic for reputation gains; my point is simply to name and draw attention to the fact that the system works this way)

This problem has been around since the literal beginning of Stack Overflow (that Meta SE post linked above predates the public beta of SO). We've been dealing with this issue for a long, long time in some form, and there still isn't a great solution for it. The system incentivizes answering first, and this case as originally described is just a specific flavor of that same issue/ design quirk.

No one was intentionally exploiting this for profit in this case, but the effect of the quirk stands, because if someone answers first on a bountied question and it ties for top score with another answer, age breaks the tie, and that post will receive the automatic bounty if OP fails to award it.

Given, though, that bounties awarded in this way, where OP doesn't award the bounty, and the top answers' scores are tied at some value greater than 1, and they're posted within a narrow timespan, seems to be a rare occurrence... I don't think it warrants changing how the system works in this regard, at least until there's more evidence that this happens more often.

I personally like your idea of "making the bounty go to the answer with the oldest last revision," but this wouldn't solve the issue either, and really only addresses this problem when answers undergo "major" edits. Otherwise, it would actually make editing answers on bountied questions a disadvantage, since they would be penalized in a tie, which is a negative consequence.

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    "it would actually make editing answers on bountied questions a disadvantage, since they would be penalized in a tie, which is a negative consequence" → Yes, but wouldn't it also encourage people to put more time and attention into writing complete, tested, fully-fledged answers, so they don't need to edit them later? Thus making being the "fastest gun" not as rewarding as being the "most accurate gun"?
    – walen
    Mar 17, 2021 at 8:41
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    @walen: Yes, there'd be some motivation / effect in that direction, but it's probably not fun to risk losing a bounty if someone in comments does point out an improvement that you want to fix, or you come back with fresh eyes many hours later or the next day, and notice something you missed. It's still "just" a bounty on an SO question, not a big serious prize competition; the diminishing returns of how much effort it takes to be sure enough you've spotted all the mistakes on your own sucks when every second you spend on it is a second when someone else might post. Mar 17, 2021 at 14:34
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    @walen: So that solution isn't perfect either, and IMO has worse downsides than the current system, assuming people aren't total assholes, which is true most of the time on SO. That's a key part of how the site works- it's designed around cooperation and good intent for the most part. Closing loopholes is good, but only when it doesn't come at worse costs for "honest" users. Auto bounty awarding based on timestamp for tied answers is a corner case that there's no great solution to that will be good in all cases. :/ Mar 17, 2021 at 14:37
-3

Posting a quick answer that is not fully complete is something that even John Skeet does. I think it's fine becuase SO is not supposed to do the programming for you. A quick, incomplete answer to your question can set you on the path to the solution you want. Once a question has an answer it deters others from answering so maybe have a option to search for questions where the answers have not been upvoted. Also I've suggested before the idea of delaying high reputation users from answering to give others a chance to answer. e.g. My rep is 600 approx so give 2,000 rep users the opportunity to answer my questions first and then allow 20,000 rep users an hour later. The idea is to have to top people focused on answering the hard questions.

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