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I had the privilege of reading this meta post just now (screenshot in case it's deleted again).

It was created 36 minutes ago.

It was closed 20 minutes ago.

It was deleted 1 minute ago.

Meta is the place where the community gathers to talk through problems. It doesn't matter if those problems have been talked about ad infinitum, if someone brings a topic up, we should honor that.

The post wasn't poorly written.

It wasn't hostile. It spoke of a problem without castigating the people.

It garnered two good answers that have one advantage over the other times we've talked about this: They were fresh.

Communities can and do change; and if we shut down conversation moments after it happens, all we're saying is that we're hostile to ideas being revisited -- and if that's the case, aren't we as a community then guilty of the culture people have ascribed to us?

As a feature request (or as a point of community input): There should be a mechanism in place, whether it's good sense or whether it's an automated system to keep people from deleting duplicates within an hour of them being posted if they have upvoted answers on meta.

In this case, the stated duplicate is from 2014. I think we'll all agree the tenor of the community has changed a lot in 7 years, so why wouldn't we allow another discussion to take place on this topic? It doesn't harm anything to have the discussion, and yet it causes harm to delete it within 36 minutes of it being posted.

This is the place where we discuss policy changes; and if we can't discuss changes to policies because it was talked about in 2014, how do we ever expect to improve?

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  • 38
    Things do change, but abolishing downvotes? No. That would essentially make reputation useless, and destroy pretty much all our curation systems. I'd expect you, a former mod, to understand the importance of downvotes, and why that stance won't change. Downvotes are still an integral part of the site - literally nothing has changed since you left. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:42
  • 102
    @Zoe I think we should allow the discussion; even if I think the particular outcome in this discussion would be bad if we implemented it. In fact; the someone asking the question serves up the nice opportunity for the community to weigh in with fresh eyes on the conversation. Given that the stated duplicate is from 2014; I think having the conversation once every 7 years is at the minimum appropriate. Thinking we shouldn't delete discussions in 36 minutes doesn't mean I think the particular subject of the discussion should be implemented. I hope we can agree those aren't the same thing. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:43
  • 23
    @Zoe - George never said that. He's talking about shutting down discussion. And why not have that discussion, even if the end result/consensus is unchanged?
    – Oded
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:44
  • 20
    @GeorgeStocker if you've been paying attention to meta the past couple years, you'd know we have this discussion on a regular basis. It's not "once every 7 years", it's more on the scale of a few times per month that someone comes up with an idea to get rid of downvotes Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:45
  • 17
    @zoe great; so maybe a better duplicate should be chosen? Maybe one from this month? Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:46
  • 13
    sorry but that makes no sense. You're suggesting that all closed non deleted questions should be either reopened or deleted? Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:50
  • 12
    I'm talking about this specific case. Why undelete a (frankly, trainwreck of a) question, if you're gonna leave it there in "purgatory"? Sure, there are other cases, but here it just doesn't make sense to me to undelete it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:51
  • 34
    I do think sometimes questions are deleted too aggressively on meta. But I also think you chose a very poor example to defend. There is nothing useful or salvageable in that question. It’s just a rant that’s not actually looking for community input. I wish you had chosen a more reasonable question to make this stand.
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:03
  • 11
    I had to lol at "if you've been paying attention to meta the past couple of years" @GeorgeStocker is nothing if not attentive to meta. :)
    – tvanfosson
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:05
  • 15
    @George Downvotes aren't policy, they're an integral part of the site, it cannot function without them Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:07
  • 15
    You think those two answers offer fresh ideas? I have seen that reasoning given on every such Meta proposal since I've been a member of Stack Overflow...
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:14
  • 15
    @Scratte - although I see your point, do you really believe that users who post these honestly want to have a discussion? This time it took Shog9 to make the post look like an actual pitch. User's comments exhibited an adversarial tone exclusively. Ironically, I also find the most civil and rich on ideas discussion on downvotes we had so far is the "what can we do to encourage downvotes"...
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 0:03
  • 8
    @OlegValter: Some people only really know how to express frustration through shouting. But if you choose not to shout and decide to listen to what it is they're shouting about, you can at least start having a conversation. Sometimes conversations about why people aren't happy with the site aren't civil. That's a fact of life, and dismissing those sometimes valid concerns out-of-hand for one reason or another isn't beneficial to any of us in the long run.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 0:18
  • 10
    @Scratte I live in a country where the argument "if you do not agree, don't participate, no one is forced to" is invoked a bit too much, and I am a bit tired of it. I do not advocate for deletion, in fact, as I already mentioned, I was surprised to see it deleted. What worries me is that the discussion that started with "we should not delete opinions" started shifting to "however ranty, non-community-input seeking or name-calling the post may be, this is an opportunity for us to change and we should welcome it". Maybe I am seeing things.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 1:18
  • 15
    Downvoting is often used as a cheap, fast, and untraceable weapon in a cowardly drive-by micro-aggression without having to own up to it. Very non-hostile. Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 14:20

11 Answers 11

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This is the antipattern of question moderation that I'm really starting to revile.

Someone posted a question which does deserve some discussion and has some merit as a signal to the powers that be who decide to think for whatever reason that removing downvotes might be a good idea. Not saying any do today, but this serves as a reminder that it's not a good idea tomorrow.

If you're going to close a question, fine. This means that the question here on Meta really isn't looking for a discussion or isn't looking for feedback; they just want to rant. I don't see that in this question. What I see is horribly misguided assumptions about the site that should be corrected as opposed to slammed out.

If you're going to delete a question, that's fine too. It means that this question was so radioactive that only a timely concrete sarcophagus could save the rest of us.

But if you close the question and vote to delete it literally 5 minutes later when it's obvious that there's constructive discussion happening with it?? What are you doing then?? Just shunting conversations about this?

I'd rather this question not be deleted; it's not ever going to make its way onto the front page at this rate, and it isn't like we always automatically delete heavily downvoted questions.

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    So, you just unilaterally decide the question is fine and re-open it, while you agree that the question consists of "horribly misguided assumptions about the site"... What?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:26
  • 43
    Considering that I have a gold tag badge in almost every Meta tag here, and have dealt with and have seen a lot of these questions, not only has the system afforded me that privilege, I felt confident in using it this time. Just looking at the original dupe that was put there felt like a hand-wavy attempt at not wanting to discuss this question on its merits or try to help the OP actually comprehend what it is we're doing or why we're doing it. While some dupes on Meta are good sign posts, in my extensive experience, they are often reacted to more aggressively than the downvotes themselves
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:28
  • 3
    I agree that there are issues with moderation as practiced currently, but I'm going to have to push back a little on whether the question was close-worthy. While I wouldn't categorize it as a rant, and it certainly didn't deserve to be deleted, I found the question to not really be phrased in a way that invited community feedback. Shog9 has gone ahead and made the edits to do that, but in its previous state I stand by the closure.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:30
  • 5
    @Cerbrus: I have had first-hand experience in salvaging situations like this. This feels very much salvageable so long as we are clear and concise in our communication. Using this as an opportunity to either belittle or lock out the OP from the understanding of their experience is going to have the impact of making this unsalvageable.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:31
  • 5
    @cigien: Yes, but the point of closure is to give either the OP or others an opportunity to make those kinds of edits. Just deleting it out-of-hand because one can't be bothered to edit it into shape is a slap in the face to how the content moderation is meant to play out here. We close it to give it a "chance" to get fixed. We delete it because it's not fixable. But it clearly was, and it has been fixed. Do you see the disconnect here?
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:33
  • 2
    @Makoto: Salvage first, re-open second.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:34
  • 7
    @Cerbrus: Can't salvage it if it's deleted. And it was damn close to that. If nothing else I feel like I bought Shog some time there.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:35
  • 4
    You can still edit it if it's deleted, and then undelete / re-open it. Salvage first. Otherwise, it's just gonna get re-closed / re-deleted. Even if it was deleted during Shog's edit, the edit would've gone through.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:36
  • 2
    Yes, very much so. In fact, I voted to close the post, asked the OP to improve their post, and voted to undelete when the post got deleted, so as to give the OP the chance to edit the post. It appears we're in agreement on all that. I just wanted to point out that the question did need some editing, which it seems we disagree on, based on your answer, and the fact that you reopened before editing.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:38
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    I think you're overstating the verbatim lifecycle of salvaged questions. I'll leave you alone after this @Cerbrus, but basically - if a question is deleted, that adds a lot more mental burden to bother with trying to bring this question back from the grave. The best chance a question has to survive is if it's salvaged while it's still undeleted, because people will still be around long enough to evaluate the revision and agree/disagree with it then. By the time it gets into the review queues, it's very often too late, especially for posts on Meta.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:38
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    For what it’s worth: the OP of that question had posted a similar rant-y post about downvoting, 6 months ago: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/400312/…. Make of that what you will.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 2:02
  • 8
    @MartijnPieters I notice a similar thing happened last week. A user posted a Meta that was about as ranty as this one, and it got deleted. The OP then posted about 4-5 questions over the next couple of days, all about the same topic, with each post deteriorating in quality. In that case, as well as this one, wouldn't it be more fruitful to just leave the first post undeleted? That way the OP doesn't feel like they're being silenced, and they're less likely to post the same question again. And if they do repost, regular users can actually find the original, and close the dupe accordingly.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 3:36
  • 1
    @MartijnPieters: Looks like I did some six months ago what I did more recently; I made the question not about the OP, and offered an answer to help them understand where the community could be coming from. I made a plea about how this too is still signal that someone needs to see when it comes to why we shouldn't stop downvotes. I made a post giving roughly the same advice to the OP as this time. Ironically if it weren't for the fact that this question was deleted, I'd be okay with closing the new question as a duplicate since that one really did cover the same ground.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 16:57
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    @cigien: sorry, I was not suggesting any specific course of action, I was just pointing out that it can go both ways, users that are upset because they don't feel heard, and users that are upset because they don't like the reception they got being visible for all.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 18:18
  • 3
    @MartijnPieters Oh, I see. Yes, that's certainly an issue. I think I'm inclined to let users have their say (so long as it's done politely, etc), and then if they change their mind they can ask for deletion. Of course, then you have to take into account whether the value of the post outweighs the user's embarrassment. There are also probably other factors that need to be taken into account, that I'm unaware of, when making those calls. It does sound like a hard job, and I do agree that there doesn't appear to be any real winning to be had when moderating Meta in cases like this.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 18:26
83

I can't ever get too upset about deletion. I want to, but... Honestly, I think it's often the best option.

But, sadly, not in this case.

Beyond the reasons you've stated, it's traditional to downvote posts complaining about downvotes. Can't do that if they're deleted!

Also, the close reason was bullshit. A duplicate of a vaguely similar question that was in turn closed as a duplicate of a catch-all FAQ. That's some tired forum nonsense right there; if it's a duplicate, put in the effort to collect something useful.

IMHO, the kindest and most productive response to these sorts of posts is usually to edit them, to focus on the aspects that are unique or insightful and remove or deemphasize the empty frustration that so often triggers knee-jerk reactions.

Failing that... at least leave them up long enough for folks to get their dose of irony. It's winter and we're all a little anemic!

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  • I agree the dupe target is insufficient. (this was probably better). That said, I don't think there's much to salvage in this case... Maybe the most humane thing is to get rid of it, instead of letting it gather downvotes ;-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:18
  • 27
    Eh. I've waffled on that a few times, and ... I think there are scenarios where it is merciful to remove a post (think, someone who is just completely out of their depth and thought they were emailing support or something)... But: to buy into the idea that deleting heavily-downvoted posts is a humane reaction is to also buy into the idea that downvotes are inhumane - now you're running a risk of irony poisoning!
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:20
  • Well you got me there!
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:21
  • 2
    @Cerbrus By the way, I would like point out that receiving downvotes on Meta doesn't have any negative effect on the OP, such as post bans etc, so there's nothing really inhumane about it.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:23
  • 2
    Unless you consider pounding one's ego into the ground one downvote after another "inhumane" ;-) But then, one should consider not taking the downvotes personally :D
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:24
  • 12
    Eh... Hate to be so contrarian, @Cerb - but I'm pretty sure my posts have received more downvotes in total than the combined total of those from the other folks in this discussion... And my ego is HUGE!
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:29
  • 2
    The dupe target in question is specifically to "I suggest to remove downvoting for questions.", doesn't seem unreasonable to me Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:30
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    Yeah, but there's a lot more to both of them than that, @Nick. The older question is a big rant about the supposed motivations of the folks who use the feature; the newer one actually does spend most of its time talking about the feature itself. I would edit it to better highlight the differences, if it weren't locked!
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:33
  • @Shog9 I'd rather see the duplicate targets flipped, better question and better answers on the new one, but hindsight is 20/20 Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:35
  • 1
    That'd be fine too. Or hell, just delete the older one. It's 6 years old, whatever value it offered has had plenty of time to be realized.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:36
  • 5
    I voted to close as not seeking community input, which I think is the most applicable reason since the post was presented in a way that outright rejected any possible constructive discussion about the proposal. Frankly, I agree that it did not warrant a swift deletion (as it seems to be leading to the post being a bigger issue than it should've been), but here we are.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:36
  • 1
    I think it is somewhat confusing that voting on meta is different than on the main stack, for new meta users. Perhaps all the meta sites could be changed such that they work exactly the same as they do now but instead of seeing the message "upvote and downvote totals" you saw something like "view approvals and disapprovals of the proposal", and other things changed accordingly. Maybe a visual cue that things were different as well, instead of up/down triangle there'd be ... I dunno, something else. This could address the issue discussed here that downvoting on meta is pounding one's ego.
    – davidbak
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 18:19
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    @davidbak - tooltips change - 100% for that (and maybe for additional guidance in huge bold letters that meta upvotes/downvotes do not necessarily mean the post itself is bad). How meta looks like now, as far as I learned, is a result of taking a path of least effort, so we are kind of stack with it. Oh, btw, the proposal for doing just that is "in review" for nearly 4 years now: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/353758/…
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 14:59
  • 1
    "the kindest and most productive response to these sorts of posts is usually to edit them" - poetry! It should popup on screen whenever the delete button is clicked.
    – stevec
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 0:53
  • 3
    It's always winter in my heart :D
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 10:19
27

I agree with this proposal, although the post that you've linked to is not the ideal example I would have brought up*.

I've noticed that posts on Meta tend to get deleted because they are making a suggestion that is not well received, or is a suggestion that is simply never going to get community consensus. I don't believe this is an appropriate use of delete votes on Meta. If the suggestion is not a good idea, this can be expressed through downvotes, and answers expressing why the suggestion is bad. This allows the community to at least know that there are opposing views to the current consensus, which is not possible when the question is deleted.

One unfortunate consequence of deleting posts is that the OP, and others who share that view, feel silenced. I think it's very important that all members of a community, especially those in a minority, have the opportunity for their voice to be heard. Of course, it's vital that the dissenting opinions be expressed in a manner that is open to productive discussion.

The topic of downvoting is discussed all the time in comments on Meta, usually inspired by other comments saying it's a bad/good idea. It's understandable that many users are frustrated by having to repeat their arguments ad nauseum. Why some users feel the need to engage in every conversation on a particular topic is not entirely clear to me, though it's understandable when one feels strongly about a matter. That still shouldn't prevent those discussions from taking place, and posts bringing up that topic needn't be deleted (especially in a hurry).

* The particular meta you linked to is an unfortunate example to have used. The utility of downvoting is an interesting topic, and as far as I can tell, has not been discussed on Meta for several years (the suggested target is about 7 years old). However, the OP framed the question in a way that was not conducive to having a healthy discussion. There was not a clear indication that the OP was willing to receive feedback, or to change their mind, both of which are important requirements in a Meta post. I expressed that view in a comment, and voted to close the question. On the other hand, I didn't feel that the question was unsalvageable (which are situations where I cast a delete vote myself). With a little help, the OP might have, and still might, edit the question into a form that allows it to be reopened. Deleting the post, especially within half an hour, simply doesn't allow for that.

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  • 1
    It should've been closed as a dupe of this, probably, as that's more or less the canonical "Why we have downvotes" dupe
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:13
  • 3
    @Cerbrus I'm not so sure. That post is more about "commenting on downvotes" as opposed to having downvotes at all. Yes, that post does discuss the utility of downvotes, but there are many such Metas, and they wouldn't really be suitable targets. It's the question that needs to be the same, not the answers.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:18
16

Allow me to make this preamble: I too am sometimes concerned about the abundant use of delete voting on Meta when it doesn't seem warranted. In most cases, a question doesn't have to quickly disappear after it's been closed. With the smaller magnitude of total activity on Meta, leaving non-problematic questions just a little bit longer poses hardly any harm, and we can let the roomba do the work. With that said:

This matter couldn't have been brought up with a worse example. The question suggesting to abolish downvotes reeked of trouble from the start. It ticks some red flags:

  • Attribution of voting to toxicity, presenting a completely one sided argument, completely devoid of the benefits of downvotes.
  • Use of strong wording when referring to downvoters (who by their words, are lazy and cowardly trolls).
  • Assumptions of malice and poor intentions all over; first from the downvoters, then from other users replying to the question.

All of this on a topic which has been brought up a countless number of times. And when it is, it is seldom in good faith. Sure, people don't come to Meta when everything is OK. But someone presenting a vendetta against downvotes is one of the biggest sources of vitriol on the site. If an eventual asker cannot articulate the matter constructively and respectfully... Whelp, nerves will shatter.

One may think that editing the question to remove the initial vitriol would be enough to take the best of it and attract thoughtful discussion. However, that doesn't "fix" the asker. Subsequent interactions revealed a nasty OP incapable of receiving counterarguments. The icing on the cake: the OP snapping with a "F*** you" towards another user who had simply warned them against the employment of a very poor argumentative construct, now deleted.

This question seems to suggest that no matter how toxic an asker is, the community should seek to rephrase the question, while taking any eventual integrity hits caused by, frankly, a violator of our policies.

I don't know about you, folks, but I don't like participating in "discussions" where the other side is venting their frustration on the other at the expense of our free time. I also think CoC and "be nice" initiative applies to those users as well.

And no, this isn't a case of "if you don't like handling troll behaviour, you can choose not to engage". The platform is supposedly committed to fostering a respectful environment for everyone, and within this framework welcoming us to participate without being insulted. Take out the spoiled apples, not the ones around it.

Now, had the original decision from the Meta crowd been just admitted, and that question left to die, we wouldn't have been in this ruckus. At some point, it only serves to feed the drama. All that I've seen so far in there is no breakthrough either. It almost feels as if, quoting one of the comments, the question was undeleted...

Because facilitating a discussion that isn't a discussion (but rather entertainment to make people who wanna get rid of downvotes think they're making a difference) is more important

The signal made to the community with this undeletion is two-fold:

  1. Deleting posts from a violator of the code of conduct is apparently also rude, because it censors their opinion. Instead, distort the intent of that user with an edit and continue giving the violator a voice, even if that includes more feelings hurt.
  2. It is also okay to provide a show of irony and schadenfreude on Meta.

Like everything in our society, we will need to better assess whether a conversation starter (be it a Meta question, tweet, or something else) is going to bring positive growth. I seriously can't imagine Stack Overflow breaking the cycle of poor decisions if it continues to listen and hand over microphones to the wrong people.

The welcoming movement isn't a circus. Let's not make any intervenient its clowns.

5
  • 1
    Basically to summarize: That question is now a discussion purely for the sake of "having a discussion"... That's all the value there's left in there...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 10:04
  • roomba is not active on meta, I think. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 12:47
  • 2
    @Trilarion Roomba is definitely active on Meta and should work the same way.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 13:33
  • @E_net4wantsmoreflags Thanks for digging out the link. I thought because of the disagreement voting it was largely turned off. It seems it just has different parameters for running. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 13:41
  • 4
    I agree with everything but your last two sentences. The welcoming movement is a circus, or at least a clown show, even though it shouldn't be. People like this asker are the ones who triggered it in the first place; even if the people advancing it believed they did so with good intentions, every step they took only worked to create conflict and increase toxicity. Regardless, excellent analysis.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 10:31
15

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

That was the sentence that started my comment on the post, and frankly, I see the deletion as a blessing in disguise. The post was rapidly devolving into a dumpster fire, I had to flag a comment of a user gloating that they were going to look for popcorn... I found that distasteful.

But deletion is about the redeeming quality of the post, and as I opened both my comment and this answer since the post was patently lacking any substance. It was a circular argument of downvotes are bad because they are negative reinforcement which is bad because it makes people feel bad which is... bad? Which I believe meta already knows, that's the purpose of downvotes, being both a negative reinforcement for the author and a ranking signal for the readers.

When I explained to the author these mechanics, the only response was "and they work?" (paraphrase) and, whatever your misgivings are about the general quality of the site, I believe that they would work if we used it more frequently, not less, which already puts the presented argument in jeopardy. For that reason, I don't denounce the deletion of that post.

But all this talk can't help but bring me back to the apparent confusion about Stack Overflow (and Stack Exchange) mission or goal: be a library of high quality content. We still haven't set askers, and even some answerers, expectations around this. There are certain groups within the wider community that claim that SO doesn't have a goal, or they decide one by themselves, which would be fine if they didn't interact with other groups that still believe in the goal stated at the start of this paragraph, which seems to cause, not just tension (which is good so that we don't go too extreme either way), but all out wars of saltiness and bitterness. I don't see that post as a way to compromise and alleviate tensions, but another spark that will become another big drama with the only result of more frustration, disappointment and anger at one another. At least one user was already disappointed 10 minutes in. Me.

1
  • 4
    "But all this talk can't help but bring me back to the apparent confusion about Stack Overflow (and Stack Exchange) mission or goal: be a library of high quality content. We still haven't set askers, and even some answerers, expectations around this." Put that in bold, please.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 12:43
15

Meta is the place where the community gathers to talk through problems. It doesn't matter if those problems have been talked about ad infinitum, if someone brings a topic up, we should honor that.

Wrong. The fact this is not the case is why we have a duplicate system to begin with.

Communities can and do change; and if we shut down conversation moments after it happens, all we're saying is that we're hostile to ideas being revisited

No, it means we're hostile to rehashing the same arguments over and over and over. And we are. No online community should subject its users to that sort of repetitiveness. If someone has a new point to bring to the table, they should first make sure they're informed of the basic history of the issue and then should interweave that knowledge into the discussion. And they should be fully open to finding out that their point has been brought up before.

...and if that's the case, aren't we as a community then guilty of the culture people have ascribed to us?

No, it means they don't understand our history and culture as a community and should learn more about it instead of deriding it. The great irony of the "welcoming" ideology is that its advocates refuse to extend its principles to themselves. It is pure hypocrisy.


The system this platform was built upon is not perfect, but there are very good reasons why it has the features it does. Anyone trying to enter this community should first be willing to accept that. If they have a desire to change some feature of it, they must acknowledge the problems that led to the creation of that feature as well as how the community's usage has adapted to any shortcomings they have. Only after they have done so should they begin to think of what changes they can propose that would solve both those problems and additional ones, and they should be willing to explain how the change still accounts for the original problems and how it would solve additional ones. We're not opposed to improvements here; we're opposed to regressions.

SO as a company has failed to do so since the beginning of "welcoming." That's why we're frustrated with them. This wasn't a bunch of new people integrating themselves into what we were doing and trying to make it better. This was a bunch of new people with totally different values who have no interest in our original problems coming in and taking over in a hostile manner, and then tell us to leave if we don't like it.


It wasn't hostile. It spoke of a problem without castigating the people.

And this is just ridiculous. This question is a dumpster fire of sanctimonious invective.

Seriously, the author left it all over the post and comments:

It's just a lazy alternative to substantive engagement, leaving no beneficial artifacts for the poster nor the community.

Downvoting is often used as a cheap, fast, and untraceable weapon in a cowardly drive-by micro-aggression without having to own up to it.

I'm holding down the fort waiting for backup. LOL! I agree about trying it out, but I wouldn't hold my breath given the response here.

Sorry if this sounds blunt, but I think you inadvertently revealed the real purpose of downvoting--it's Pavlovian conditioning!

Whatever benefit there is to downvoting, is it worth all the turmoil?

(Do take note of Nicol Bolas' insightful reply)

If the poster is a person of color, how is he or she supposed to discern your downvote from a racist asshole's downvote?

Have you ever considered a downvote may have nothing to do with the quality of your question? Perhaps, I downvoted your post because you're from Texas.

And the original version of the question contained even more:

Unfortunately, it overlooks how some of the platform's features promote a toxic community culture with downvoting as a primary instigator. Consequently, it's time to remove the feature, or at least for questions.

At best it's meaningless, at worse promotes the very toxic culture SO seeks to reform...

This user has repeatedly cast baseless aspersions on the motives and character of downvoters. They have made it quite clear they're not here to discuss the issue, but to castigate this community for something they view as morally unjust. There is no evidence that engaging with this user is going to be even remotely productive. Deletion is the best option for everyone. If you think there's some content to be salvaged, then salvage it in a new, improved question.

It appears to me that your biases in favor of the "welcoming" ideology have clouded your ability to judge this situation, but you'll have to determine for yourself the reasons why you could not see that this asker and the way in which they presented the topic are inherently hostile.

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  • 2
    You're assuming facts not in evidence about Meta as a platform. Meta was literally an experiment; and then the company simply did not have the time or the energy to fix the experiment. Meta isn't the way it is because of intentional thought and care towards its features, it is the way it is because that was the path of least resistance to move meta into the company and the less money the company had to spend on it, the better. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 13:45
  • 7
    @GeorgeStocker I don't know what you're even talking about. My answer is written in the context of a suggestion that we eliminate downvoting entirely, one that lacks any discussion of the crucial purpose of the feature and any acknowledgement of its history and our cultural practices surrounding it. That is the failure to understand our site's history and culture I'm talking about. And if you mean duplication, the arguments for having duplicate closure on the site apply directly to Meta as well. It appears you did not grasp my answer's points; please revisit it with a more open mind.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 7:13
  • It's convenient to point someone to a duplicate. We do it all the time on Stack Overflow, where the questions outnumber Meta Stack Overflow some 472 to 1. If nothing else, it's really efficient in that capacity. But in reality, unless the question is rehashing the exact same ground - that is to say, someone has brought up why they want comments after downvotes for the umpteenth time - duplicates seldom help.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 7:40
  • 2
    @Makoto Duplicates frequently fail on the main site as well. People who are not intimately familiar with the subject matter before them often have difficulty adapting the information in a duplicate to their own situation and thinking. Does that mean we shouldn't use duplicates on the main site?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 7:44
  • @jpmc26: Probably not, but they're the best tool we have right now. They're an imperfect tool, suited more for efficiency and convenience as well as scalability. It's easier to get 1 or 3 people these days (thankfully now it's max 3) to agree that some question could answer some other question. But does it work? Is it all that accurate? Probably not. Is it useful on Meta? Only when there's a literal 1 for 1 match on the subject. But even still...some things do merit discussion even if there's some similar topic out there about it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 7:45
  • That does mean that it's inefficient, but given that it's still 472 to 1 in terms of questions, and Meta users can be highly engaged...I don't think the inefficiency of taking a few extra minutes to address a person's Meta concern is that expensive, compared to the lasting confusion of why their conversation was shut down because someone some years ago asked something kinda sorta close to theirs.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 7:47
  • 8
    @Makoto In this situation, we're faced with the same problem on Meta: a user is bringing forth a sweeping proposition without grasping the purpose and usage of a crucial feature they want to eliminate, understanding the ramifications of doing so, or proposing how it might be replaced. The information is there in the duplicate, even if they have difficulty understanding its applicability. If they have something new to bring to the discussion, it is incumbent upon them to clarify what that difference is on both the main and the Meta site.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 7:50
  • Any reason why it's preferable then to just point them to the duplicate instead of taking the time to engage with them on it? I've had lots and lots of success in doing the latter in the past on Meta, and I do feel like some people have left here with a better sense of how we want to operate.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 7:55
  • 4
    @Makoto Why don't we do that on the main site? The same reasons will apply. Engaging with every main site duplicate is also more likely to help them find a solution to their problem. What do we value on the main site that leads us to use duplicate flagging instead?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 8:42
  • @jpmc26 The nice thing about I said is that it works for duplicate questions on meta as well as deletions on meta. Both of those features are examples of mainsite features that stick around because they're main site features; not because they're meant to be features on meta that culturally work the same way they should on the main site. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 11:50
  • 1
    @GeorgeStocker Reproducing content on Meta suffers from the same problems that it does on the main site. Meta could have easily been an old fashioned PHP forum (...For some reason, saying that makes me think it actually originally was something along those lines at one very early time, but I may not be remembering correctly.) if it wasn't supposed to work in a similar fashion as the main site; it is not.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:17
  • 1
    @GeorgeStocker My recollection wasn't too far off the mark: stackoverflow.blog/2009/06/28/cmon-get-meta. Some users set up a third party, ordinary forum site for the purpose. Then Atwood and co. made Meta to work like the main site on purpose: "That said, the limitations of phpBB (and their ilk) are fairly painful, and felt like stepping back 10 years in time compared to the Stack Overflow engine. So instead of an unofficial, old-and-busted forum, how about an official meta-discussion outlet based on the Stack Overflow engine you’ve come to know and love?"
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:25
  • 7
    @GeorgeStocker The voting culture obviously evolved quite differently on Meta, but other moderation tools were left in specifically to be used because they solve common problems that old fashioned forums had. One of the chief among them was the scattering of information and the repetitiveness of answering when duplicates are allowed to remain open and unlinked/not curated. Furthermore, this user is more interested in besmirching downvoters with moralized accusations of racism, nefarious motives, and cowardice than in having a productive discussion or learning; little good will come of it.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 14:29
  • 2
    Re the last edit: Although I did not take a screenshot at the time, the OP had also thrown an "F you" towards another user in one of the comments. It was quickly deleted of course. As much as I would like a Q&A to stand on its own, the asker inevitably plays a role in how discussion unfolds. Naturally, I stand in full agreement with this, and the suggestion to channel the discussion into a separate question wouldn't have been a bad idea.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 3, 2021 at 11:03
14

if we shut down conversation moments after it happens, all we're saying is that we're hostile to ideas being revisited

I disagree.

It was more of the same rehashed assumptions demonizing the voting system. It calls downvotes lazy and unhelpful, and suggest flags are a viable alternative to downvotes.

It was ranty, it was poorly researched, and it really didn't add anything new to the discussion.

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    The point is that we don't need to rehash this discussion if there's no significant new thing to discuss. Questions like that get dumped on meta on a daily basis.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:38
  • 5
    There are new people added to the community all the time; guarantee they're not going to have your perspective that 'nothing has changed'; quite the contrary, the fact that we're getting new questions askers means the community has changed. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:41
  • 19
    Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying "nothing has changed". I'm saying that these "downvotes are bad" meta dumps are a dime a dozen. The questions don't bring up significant new things. They're rehashing the same old story over and over again.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:42
  • 3
    since they are a dime a dozen, I assume there's a concerted effort to choosing a better duplicate to one that happened this year, instead of one from 2014? Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:46
  • 5
    @GeorgeStocker Say we do allow these discussions from time to time.. which ones do we allow, considering we get at least one of these a week, if not one daily? Only the ones that cite the existing discussions? only the ones that bring forward solutions with supporting research? only ones that include outside opinions? new ideas?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:46
  • 11
    @GeorgeStocker: Considering the fact that we're rehashing the same old story, what does it matter if the dupe's a few years old?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:47
  • 4
    @Cerbrus It's much more easily defended to say "Yes, we're deleting this because we just had this conversation two weeks ago, go there" than it is to say "We had this conversation 7 years ago; and that's that." I hope you can see the different signal that sends to the asker and the community. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:49
  • 28
    Frankly, I don't care what signal it sends to people that can't be bothered to look into how SE works and posts rants like that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:50
  • 8
    Couldn't agree more. The poster of that question was using awfully strong words like "malicious" and "cowardly" and "toxic". And, just like any other huge popular thing, there are certainly malicious, cowardly, and toxic people here just based on numbers alone. But he/she was accusing basically all of us of being evil people. Prime candidate for deletion. Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 18:03
  • @JaredSmith surely if one's first reaction to a disgruntled colleague is to shut them down one is not particularly helping the problem, right? If someone approaches a topic from the wrong angle, you can certainly help correct it. However objectionable you might have deemed OP to be, he is right in that you can't fix what you can't talk about. Especially if the basis for your deletion is their character rather than what they are frustrated about. Otherwise, instead of having a good discussion on a problem (however bad the initiating post), you end up with the same question deleted every month. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 13:28
  • 1
    @TasosPapastylianou - there is a flaw in reasoning like this: it is true "you can't fix what you can't talk about" (which is, frankly, a truism), but the premise "not having a discussion every couple of days leads to posts keep popping up" has to be proved to be used for inferring that we must entertain every frustrated user with a thorough discussion. Huge disclaimer: I am not a proponent of deletion of such posts. I am firmly against us shooting ourselves in the foot by making those posts look like victims of oppression at worst and collaterals of an insensitive community at best.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 14:54
  • 7
    @TasosPapastylianou people who call me toxic/malicious/cowardly because I didn't walk a mile out of my way to avoid hurting their tiny little feelings are not my colleagues. There is actually toxic behavior on SO (e.g. sarcasm, sexism, personal attacks) and complaints about it, even ones that unfairly tar the rest of us with that brush, are fair game. But the rest? If I walk into some culture/community I know little of, and say "your values and norms that I can't be bothered to learn suck and so do you", how should they react? Are they obligated to host and entertain that? I say no. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 16:06
11

In this case no, because nothing of value was lost.

People kvetching about downvotes are a dime a dozen. The linked post puts more effort into said kvetching than most, but at the end of the day its arguments boil down to the same old, tired "downvoting is hostile and makes users sad" claptrap. As such it provides nothing new or interesting to the age-old debate, which means it might as well never have existed, which means that deleting it was absolutely the right thing to do. Once it is inevitably re-closed and hence comes up for deletion again, I'll be standing in line to cast a delete vote; we don't need more than one dupe target for this particular topic.

Concerns about the hivemind, knee-jerk reactions and shutting down legitimate discussion are always valid, but that's absolutely not what happened in this case, and my experience with Meta has predominantly been that when something useful is suggested, it is welcomed with enthusiasm. But this... there was nothing useful about this, not even a sliver of a shadow.

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  • 1
    "when something useful is suggested, it is welcomed with enthusiasm." Or even when it's not that useful, but the user at least put some effort into it. :D
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 11:01
6

It has always been my understanding that the system is supposed to work like this:

Downvote bad questions (lack of research, uninteresting, Meta proposals you disagree with)
Close questions that shouldn't be answered (are unanswerable, off-topic, duplicates)
Delete questions that are harmful (spam, abuse, infringement)

Clearly this question wasn't harmful, arguably it was a duplicate, probably it shows a lack of research. Therefore it shouldn't be deleted. Especially if it's a duplicate it should not be deleted, so it serves as SEO for the dupe target. As it's attracted some highly-voted answers it probably shouldn't have been closed either.

Following these simple rules should reduce a lot of drama, and moderator workload. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it must be deleted ASAP. Even if the majority don't like it.

14
  • A duplicate has a different connotation when there is a right answer for all time vs a “duplicate” when we are talking about how the site works or if it should change whether through policy or software. That’s one reason why the main site software can’t be used the same way on meta that it can in the main site. If we can’t discuss a policy once we’ve discussed it once, there’s really no reason to even have a meta. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:03
  • 6
    I'd argue that a bad question like that is harmful, in that it sends a signal to other users saying baseless rants are a-okay.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:24
  • 5
    @Cerbrus but it's not a baseless rant. Its a feature request with an in-depth reasoned argument (based on flawed premises).
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:26
  • 2
    "flawed premises" based on incorrect assumptions... That's a baseless rant.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:28
  • 2
    @Cerbrus rant (v): To speak or write in an angry or emotionally charged manner.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:31
  • 2
    "It's just a lazy alternative to substantive engagement, leaving no beneficial artifacts for the poster nor the community." That's not angry or emotionally charged?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:32
  • @Cerbrus no, not at all. Its a biased opinion, but there's nothing wrong with its expression.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:34
  • 2
    @OrangeDog - I am not sure if you followed the question from the start (and, admittedly, by now it is a huge time sink if one wishes to catch up), but it was far less tame initially, and the OPs responses mainly consist of theoretical "what ifs". Granted, it is not a rant by dictionary definition, this may be an overstatement. Still, it is definitely baseless ("numerous complaints", "used as a cheap, fast, and untraceable weapon", "SO now has some serious competition like Discord and Reddit", "platforms, including Quorum are attracting the same audience and growing").
    – 0Valt
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 15:58
  • 1
    We can discuss the semantics of the word "rant", but I still stand by the general gist of that statement that it's a unbased <something> :D
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:06
  • Huh, Unbased<unknown> :) This whole discussion makes me use up my daily votes 3rd day in a row...
    – 0Valt
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 16:08
  • 3
    "Following these simple rules should reduce a lot of drama, and moderator workload." The question consisted of large amounts of drama due to the author's desire to levy moralized derogatory remarks at downvoters and the people who support downvoting. Examples included "lazy," "cowardice," "micro-aggression," "damaging," "troll," "unwelcoming," and "racist asshole." E_net4 documents they left a now deleted comment stating "F you." The original question was far more vitriolic, and the attitude persisted beyond the virtual rewrite. By your own metric, this question deserved deletion.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 15:29
  • 3
    @jpmc26 you omitted one which I think is very important: "toxic". It's practically the go-to complaint for anything that anybody dislikes about SO. Don't like closure? It's toxic. Don't like downvotes? They are toxic. Don't like commenters - they are toxic. It's a very important complaint to notice because complaining about non-existent toxicity is toxic. It's also very important because the whole "toxic" line of thinking and argumentation has been fed by SE themselves.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 20:11
  • @VLAZ To be fair, the notion of meta=toxic is not new and not invented by the asker in the question referred to here. It might just be a reference, although a malicious one. At least since middle of 2019, even from the company: "Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know they will need to post something to Meta.". It would be nice to hear an update from the company about how they feel about meta. Maybe they still get panic attacks, but simply reduce the contact to the absolute minimum. Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 12:47
  • 5
    @Trilarion I was referring to SO main itself being considered toxic. Something SE Inc have themselves mentioned around the Welcoming initiative. It's something I feel has severely damaged the standing of the SO user base. To be clear - yes, there were and still are instances of people not being nice. And the word "toxic" has been levelled at SO before, as well. However, the company itself using it to describe (part of) their users is a bit of an official sanction. It gave complaints ammo to use against us because complaints are far from being careful how they apply the term.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 4, 2021 at 13:31
3

Sometimes posts do disappear very quickly from Meta, but they are mostly not something that we are going to miss.

The situation with this question warrants a quick deletion. While it could be left as a duplicate signpost, it doesn't actually add anything new to the discussion from several years ago. It seems to be nothing more than a rant. It is poorly researched and written in an accusatory tone which paints all curators as rude users and downvotes as something toxic. The votes on the question show that most of the readers clearly do not agree with the proposal. Keeping the discussion alive and letting the post possibly become a hot meta post is not desirable.

Neither down nor delete votes are hostile actions. On the contrary, they are means of cleaning up the site and prevent other users from piling up on the question with further downvotes and impolite comments. There's always a chance that a moderator locks the question to prevent that, but if the question is closed and doesn't accept more answers, and by the looks of it the community has already disagreed with it, then what's the point in keeping this question alive?

We are not going to remove the voting system or damage it in any way. We need votes to rate the content which is the way that Stack Overflow works. There's no point in having this discussion again, no matter how much new users don't like voting. Voting is for the benefit of the content and not the ego of some users. Nothing changed in this regards in the past 6 years.

Keeping that question visible as well as any future question that receives the same response is just not fair to all of us. We care about the site and we spend a lot of time reading posts and voting on them. How can people accuse us that we are the bad guys for doing so. The site wouldn't be such a success without downvotes. Rants about removing downvoting are just hurtful to Stack Overflow users. This is not the way to propose changes.

26
  • 4
    The point isn't the the point of the discussion; it's allowing the discussion itself. Let's say for a moment (right now) that I had the power and abliity to delete your answer. it's not adding anything new, therefore I'll delete it. What signal would that send to you? that your voice isn't worth anything. Is that the signal we want to send to people who bring up discussions on meta? Not if we want a healthy meta community. A community that can't discuss problems is a community that can't fix problems, is a community that will wither and die. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:27
  • 4
    Is telling someone "Hey we've had this discussion here, go there" saying their "voice isn't worth anything", or is it informing them of where they should go to be heard?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:30
  • 5
    Their voice was heard. They received two answers. They have also got a lot of feedback in the form of votes, both on the question and the answer. It looks to me like that discussion is over.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:33
  • 6
    It's also interesting that everyone is ignoring the main thrust of my question: Even if you do want it deleted; is deleting it minutes after it's posted a good idea? Does that send a good signal to the community? (no, and no). Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:36
  • 7
    Well, that's your opinion, which probably would've been stronger if you'd have asked this about a better meta question. Frankly, the timing is completely irrelevant. That just means more people are active on meta at this time.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:37
  • 4
    So you can probably happen upon a better one when it happens. It's not like those questions are rare... That's the whole problem.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:41
  • 2
    Well you're the one that thinks this is a problem. The burden is on you to provide a compelling example.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:43
  • 2
    @GeorgeStocker Just curious: I know you read a lot of the Meta posts, but do you monitor the active page a lot? I do, and I can assure you that posts that go against the majority consensus get deleted all the time. For much the reason in the first sentence in this answer: "we aren't going to miss it". The "we" being the majority of course.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:44
  • 3
    @cigien I think you've just unknowingly hit upon the crux of the problem: There are regulars who don't want to entertain discussion on things the regulars have made up their minds on long ago; and that speaks to an unhealthy aspect of the culture: an unwillingness to entertain the concept of change. If people in a community can't speak up and highlight things they think need to change; the community can't inspect and adapt, and the community can't grow and evolve. This is a death knell for a community, it's why no one likes usenet or forums. They become insular and hostile. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:48
  • 2
    @cigien Forgive me, of course; but your comment gave me the impression that you thought this was Good And Something We Should Continue to Do on Meta, and that's why I said unknowingly. I didn't realize you came to the conclusion that this practice was a Bad Thing™. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 22:57
  • 5
    @GeorgeStocker Are you telling me that you couldn't stand up and give an impromptu 15-minute talk on why downvoting is important on StackOverflow without resorting to a cramming session on Meta beforehand? Seriously? Do you think anyone else here is any different? If OP was actually proposing an alternative solution with compelling evidence to suggest it might work then I'd perhaps agree with you, but the question was nothing more than a rant. We don't need to provide personal education for every misguided goon with a soapbox.
    – J...
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 9:46
  • 3
    @GeorgeStocker If you stood up in the boardroom of WalMart and suggested raising everyone's pay to $1M with no credible analysis to show how you could do it without the place imploding the next day then the discussion would end right there - because it's a ridiculous idea with no merit and no work done to defend itself. Some things deserve to be laughed out of court. Losing a disaffected, low engagement, low quality user is not a bad thing. A culture of quality has to be elitist because the mean does not produce quality. A twitter feed shows us exactly what SE would become without standards.
    – J...
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 14:01
  • 3
    @GeorgeStocker Pick an analogy then. Suggesting that an architect make a building out of cheese - whatever. The point is that at some point we should not feel obliged to make a serious discussion of something that amounts to little more than trolling.
    – J...
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 14:28
  • 6
    @J... First I reject the premise that having the discussion on the removal of downvotes is trolling. It is in fact something that has been discussed at multiple levels both inside of Stack Overflow and out. This is software we are talking about; and software can be changed. If we don't have the discussion periodically, we have no way of knowing if anything's changed, sentiment wise. This bothers the regulars that want things to be the same forever; but that's not how the world works. Allowing these discussions is important to our health, and to the signals we send to the community. Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 15:14
  • 3
    @GeorgeStocker I reject that premise too. Read what I said again.
    – J...
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 15:53
3

That shouldn't be implemented. But it certainly shouldn't have been deleted. Maybe closed because it's arguably a duplicate.

Someone deleted this, but then quickly others reacted to this mistake. There is clearly a lot of disagreement between moderators over this post. The decision to delete it was a bad one. That's exactly why it was reversed shortly after. This disagreement isn't a fact about meta.

What it does show is that there are many moderators who feel that posts that are not a good idea should be deleted. This is a problem not with the policies, but with those who carry them out. But when moderators make a decision like this, others usually reverse it. No user (or group of users) has all of the power, and questions can always be undeleted.

2
  • 3
    I mean, clearly there's disagreement between those who deem it deleteworthy and those who don't. simply stating one side is correct is hardly a useful argument
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 22:20
  • @KevinB This isn't about arguing whether this was a good decision; this is about how it affects meta.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 22:22

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