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I have been getting really pesky downvotes on old question daily. At first I thought this might just be some revenge downvoting, but I'm starting to see a pattern that suggests either I don't understand something about the system, or there is a bot downvoting old questions.

Reading through the documentation at https://stackoverflow.com/help/roomba, I do not see any documented process that would be doing this.

Consider this (it's deleted so you will need enough rep to see): https://stackoverflow.com/questions/60664898/how-many-words-are-there-that-contain-the-sequence-er-three-times-there-may/60664967#60664967

All the answers received a downvote on Dec 24. (My answer received two downvotes.) The question is then deleted by Community♦.

If this was a one-off or occasional random downvote I wouldn't think about it. But this is happening almost every day. For example, over the last few days all of the positive answers on these questions have been downvoted to zero and then the question was deleted by community:

Someone or something seems to be downvoting all positive votes on these questions which causes the question to then be deleted.

Is this undocumented Stack Overflow community housecleaning, a bug, or something else?

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  • 12
    No, this is not a bot. It is someone coordinating it or using sockpuppet accounts (in order to deliver two or more downvotes per answer and/or question). Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 4:52
  • 11
    I'm tempted to give you the benefit of the doubt here; however, there's an argument to be made. The Roomba only cleans up questions and it has explicit rules about what questions would be cleaned up. Some folks think that this is too gentle and want the Roomba to do more. I would posit that a poor question that'd fall in the Roomba edge case (and it really is an edge case, that thing doesn't delete a lot) wasn't rescued by your questions - quality or otherwise - and should have been deleted. But I'll still give you the benefit of the doubt here since this smells like manipulation.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 4:57
  • 47
    @Makoto: I don't think the voting patterns leave any doubt it is very targeted voting. It is not just on one question and it is on all answers with a score higher than 0. The goal is clearly to get the question deleted (through the Roomba). (But would the motive be? Getting some or all of Mark Meyer's answers deleted to wipe out all his reputation points in some kind of revenge? This technique seems to be more efficient than normal downvotes (for the same number of sockpuppet accounts)) Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 5:04
  • 14
    @PeterMortensen: Again, if the questions are poor enough to fall in the range of the Roomba, then I'm personally having a very tough time mustering enough energy to want to investigate something like this. Sure, it's suspicious. But the question wasn't trafficked enough to justify keeping the answers around, so...it's kind of a wash here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 5:39
  • 91
    @Makoto this argument seems circular. They weren't within the Roomba criteria without the downvoting. Any question could fall within the Roomba range with enough coordinated down voting Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 7:45
  • 13
    @Martin I'm not condoning targeted voting, but in this case the questions were closed, which is what made them eligible for roomba in the first place. Without closure (which for these questions was done by multiple different users), "enough coordinated downvoting" cannot make a question fall in roomba range. That's incorrect.
    – yivi
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 7:54
  • 7
    ah yeah, somehow missed that but it is still circular to say I'm not going to investigate the thing that led to X because it is in state X Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 7:59
  • 7
    Related, possible duplicate: Clean-up by downvoting? A ridiculous user experience
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 8:32
  • 10
    I a similar experience with this answer. After four years, two downvotes in a week and question closed and deleted. After the first downvote I left a comment linking to a meta post that mentioned that this kind of downvoting was wrong, which got deleted. The other upvoted answer was also downvoted to zero. This is not to say the Q&A was worthy of preservation, just that the manner of removal is against community norms. Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 8:33
  • 19
    I assume people from some SOCVR-like community ar punishing answerers who answer questions that should not be answered but voted to be closed. Such a community could be just a few people in some external private chat somewhere. Unlikely to be directly directed to Mark personally, he just probably answers many such kinds of poor questions. Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 11:55
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    @VladimirF I don't think this is a "punishment"; I'd rather guess that this is someone trying to clean up questions which have no use for anyone except the OP and would clutter search results (note that I could not check whether this holds for the posted examples, as I don't have 10K privileges yet). However, it is indeed a bit weird to do this in such an excessive way. I always thought that this is what delete votes are for...
    – janw
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 13:46
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    It's not a bot, at least there is nothing indicating that it was done by a bot. It looks like someone is annoyed with the fact that these questions were not picked by the roomba. Whether the votes are legitimate or not, it's hard to establish without knowing who cast them or why. Python is a large tag but if it is done by someone who is very active then 6 downvoted answers is not an uncommon coincidence. These questions were closed and did not look very useful, but if you think that a very good question was delete by the system you can ask to undelete and reopen.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 15:30
  • 8
    Why is this “worse” than user deleted? Answering bad questions, or trafficking in any way with low rep users, is always a risk. Some rep gains just don’t “stick”. Your rep rise rate is way higher than this occasional reversal, so why worry?
    – matt
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 15:51
  • 31
    @matt, not sure what about this question suggests I’m ‘worried’. It is distracting, but mainly it felt like an automated process, so I was curious. I am a little worried by the number of people who support vigilante cadres roaming the site enforcing their views and where that leads if unchecked, but that’s a different question
    – Mark
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 15:57
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    @matt ISTM the broader principle is that we don't tolerate using sockpuppets or coordinated voting for upvoting, so we shouldn't tolerate such tactics for downvoting either, even if for a "good cause". If people think the site needs better cleanup they should propose something and let the community decide. Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 15:59

4 Answers 4

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No, there's no automated process (a bot) which is owned by Stack Exchange (SE) that downvotes posts. The integrity of voting is too important to Stack Exchange for them to do something like that. There's also just no reason for Stack Exchange to do so, particularly not just to cause a question to be deleted by the Roomba. If SE wanted something deleted, they could just delete it. If they wanted it to be deleted automatically, then it's a lot easier for them to just change the criteria which the existing Roomba uses, rather than create some new bot just to downvote.

Yes, it would it be possible for someone else to create such a bot and have the bot downvote using their account. However, the pattern of activity does not appear to be an automated process.

It is not acceptable to downvote just to cause the Roomba to delete a question

As many people have determined, it appears that a group of people, or one person using sockpuppets, is downvoting answers in order to get the Roomba to delete questions. Doing that is not acceptable, as has already been thoroughly discussed five years ago in Clean-up by downvoting? A ridiculous user experience. This means that downvoting the question or the question's answers should not be used with the intent to cause the question to be deleted. It definitely means that people shouldn't be coordinating their actions in order to apply multiple downvotes to answers in order to get a question to be deleted.

However, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't downvote posts which you feel otherwise deserve a downvote because of the quality and content of the post. You are always permitted to vote strictly on the content of the post on which you are voting. The secondary effects of what that vote does to something else should not be a consideration.

Suspicious voting should be handled by flagging for moderator attention

Prior to posting this meta, you had already raised a flag requesting for suspicious downvotes on your old questions to be investigated. This flag was marked helpful, and the voting issue escalated to the Community Managers. A moderator replied:

helpful - Yes, we can look into this. I've submitted a ticket to have a staff member look into suspicious downvoting against your account. If any is found, the votes will be invalidated.

As with all suspicious voting, there may be a substantial delay between when you flag and when the votes are reversed. While the delay over the last few months hasn't been all that much (days to a couple weeks), there has been a period when the backlog of such escalations was many months long. So, basically, you need to have a bit of patience in getting these fully handled. Also keep in mind that is is the holiday season, which makes things like handling this take a bit longer (e.g. it will probably add a week, or a bit more, to how long it takes). I understand that substantial delay may be frustrating, and that you don't get detailed feedback about the results of the investigation makes it more so.

Also, as with all suspicious voting, the proper way to report it is through raising an "in need of moderator intervention" flag and explaining what the issue is. If you felt there was additional information which you wanted to add to what you had previously reported, then you could have/should have raised another flag and provided the additional information. If the amount of information which you wanted to provide was too much for a flag, you could raise a flag asking for a moderator to create a private chat room in which you can post the information, or you could put it into a secret Gist on GitHub and link to the Gist in your flag, etc.

Usually, you should not post on Meta regarding suspicious voting. Posting on Meta about suspicious voting invites regular users, who cannot obtain any information about who is voting, to speculate about who may be voting. While these speculations might end up being correct, they are commonly wrong. Some people also tend to engage in retaliatory behavior. This usually ends up making a larger mess, with many of the people who engage in such retaliatory behavior getting warnings or suspensions.

Note: as with all issues, if you have a problem with how moderators are handling an issue and are unable to resolve it with them, then you have the option of using the contact us link, which is at the bottom of every page.

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    Thank you for the clear explanation. That is helpful and I appreciate it. Having said, I think it's wholly inappropriate for you to post the text of a "in need of moderator intervention" flag in a public forum. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think this text is part of the public-facing data of this site and users do not expect to see their posts held up for public discussion by those with moderator privileges.
    – Mark
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 22:45
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    @MarkMeyer We keep flags strictly private, unless you bring up the issue in public, which you did by posting this question about the same issue which you previously flagged. It's possible I'm wrong about your question here releasing us from that privacy, but that's how I interpreted your question.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 22:55
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    @Makyen FWIW, in the past, I've seen Meta posts discussing something that has also been discussed privately, where a Mod explicitly asks for permission before revealing privately discussed info. I think Mark makes a fair point Commented Dec 31, 2020 at 0:03
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    @MarkMeyer Your post is very specific. How could you get a satisfactory Answer without the part of the flagging? Would you have preferred a theoretical Answer?
    – Scratte
    Commented Dec 31, 2020 at 0:21
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    Scratte, my question was answered pretty well by the first paragraph of this post.
    – Mark
    Commented Dec 31, 2020 at 1:27
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    @MarkMeyer The second half of this answer isn't intended just for you. It's primarily intended to communicate to everyone reading this question and answer that raising flags is the right way to handle suspicious voting, and that raising an additional flag was how to communicate new concerns for something which was already in process. Because voting is private, we need people to use flags for suspicious voting, and to know that Meta really can't resolve such issues. Meta can communicate, discuss, or form policy, but it's not a vehicle to get regular users to comply with those policies.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 31, 2020 at 1:37
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    Unfortunately, this sort of question is nearly guaranteed to result in a significant amount of drama and many people doing things they shouldn't (e.g. making unfounded accusations of others doing inappropriate things, additional serial/targeted voting, to name a couple things that happened here). I know that having those sorts of things happen wasn't your intent. It is, however, what happens when presenting this sort of issue here on Meta. Trying to prevent similar, future occurrences starting from questions by others is the primary reason reason for having the discussion about flagging.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 31, 2020 at 1:37
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    @MarkM the issue was private. Since you decided not to be patient and await the resolution of the private issue, you brought the private issue public. If you dont want moderators talking about the private issue, then keep it private yourself.
    – Zombo
    Commented Dec 31, 2020 at 2:11
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    "downvoting answers in order to get the Roomba to delete questions... is not acceptable" I disagree – I will downvote whatever I want, for whatever reason I want. I have in the past downvoted things to trigger Roomba; the fact that 60% of the items I've downvoted have since been deleted is not something that keeps me up at night. Obviously, organising with others to vote in any fashion is a different situation altogether and should not be tolerated.
    – miken32
    Commented Jan 1, 2021 at 19:58
  • I'm pretty sure publishing private communication like this would be against GDPR (EU privacy law). Just because you mention a topic in public, a company with which you've interacted privately cannot publish your private communication. Even if Mark had lied, e.g. saying "I flagged and nothing happened" it would be difficult to argue that SO moderators would be allowed to do more than say: this is not true. Commented Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25
5

It looks like user(s) trying to help along the Roomba. There is a Roomba forecaster app which tells you whether casting a downvote will trigger eventual Roomba. I suspect this is coming from users just searching closed questions to vote in a cleanup effort, it's probably not bots actually casting votes or any automated process at work.

To draw attention to what these posts have in common:

They're all closed a long time ago, and have had plenty of time to get edited into a state that is on-topic and worth reopening, but that didn't happen.

Mark, you're answering a lot of low-quality Q and obvious dupes, so maybe be more selective in what you're answering? You've only noticed the activity in the first place because you have answers on posts that tend to get closed later. The voters seem to be specifically targeting closed posts, and those posts were closed for a reason.

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    I checked all these post to see if they had been posted in SOCVR. Only one had as a close vote way back in May 27th 2019. There doesn't seem to be any SOCVR involvement in the deletion by down voting. Which is also absolutely discouraged in the room.
    – Scratte
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 21:04
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    I don't see why it's likely a chat room is involved. It's tag-specific, so possibly just someone executing a closed, downvoted, 1 year old, specific tag search and downvoting answers on those
    – Erik A
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 21:13
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    Let me make clear that our FAQ clearly states that asking for votes is prohibited. I don't have everyone on a leash so if a post does pass through our transcript it might pick up votes from our regulars but that is their responsibility not something the room advocates. As the questions and answers have not been seen in SOCVR for the last 6 to 8 weeks there seems to be no basis for your suggestion that SOCVR is involved here.
    – rene
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 21:21
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    I thought it might be chat room related because it seemed unlikely to me if any other users could actually be bothered to undertake such duties and not be involved with this group. But if there's no evidence in the chat history then I've probably guessed wrong, I'll remove the mentions from the answer.
    – wim
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 21:24
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    I understand where you're coming from here but I still don't think it's done to punish an answer for a bad question. What I mean to say is that voting should be done on the content of the post, not on the circumstances surrounding its posting. If an answer was posted to a bad question, that does not by default make the answer bad. We used to have a Reversal badge for just this case until it was retired.
    – cs95
    Commented Jan 2, 2021 at 2:51
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Let’s look at some real data. A score would be before the recent downvotes:

First, looking at the question scores, these don’t seem to be good posts, so it seems ok to remove them. Second, looking at answer scores, that's a total of 10 lost votes, or 100 points. You currently have a score of 71,363, which means these posts represent about 1/700th of your rep.

So I would say maybe it's better to just not worry about this.

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    I'm not sure that's the point of the Question. What if you or I get together with some friends/bots and just anonymously and "silently" remove posts we just don't like?
    – Scratte
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 19:57
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    For what it's worth, OP seems to indicate this started a few days ago and has continued each day since, so while it may be a small fraction at this point, if it continues it could easily be a constant annoyance/unjust daily change to his rep or answering/asking status (enough deleted/downvoted posts can block you from posting more, if you take a little time off from contributing good answers/questions). So it's understandable why OP might be curious, even if not worried. All that aside, this doesn't seem to answer/address OP's question as stated (which was if this was automated or coordinated)
    – TylerH
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 21:55
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Roomba conditions are currently:

  • complex and hard to remember: at the end you never know if some content that you spent time to contribute has been wiped or not.

    Moreover once deleted, it's hard to find your own content (if you're < 10k rep), except if you bookmarked a link.

  • and maybe also too strict. Here is a typical example of good user-contributed content (@MarkMeyer's answers) which is, sadly, deleted.

Proposal: can we make Roomba conditions less strict?

Example: a Roomba deletion can only happen if (necessary but not sufficient):

score(question) <= -1 
AND score(answer_1) <= -1  
AND ...
AND score(answer_n) <= -1

If at least one of them has score >= 0, it means it's probably some content not worth deleting.

After all, we have "vote to close" which requires a few votes, so, similarly, deletion would require at least -1 score to happen.

Deleting content makes sense for really bad content (say <= -2 or -1), but isn't "closing" enough for questions/answers with a score around 0? (that currently risk to be Roomba-deleted)

Said in a different way:

Deleting content of score around 0 or -1 makes it very sensitive to a random vote by just one or two persons (like OP's problem), which is highly undesirable.

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    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. If you want to make your objection to Basj's answer known, then post a competing answer of your own.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 12:23
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    @CodyGray objections to specific aspects of an answer that suggests a frame challenge to the question don't belong as standalone answers. That's exactly the kind of context-specific thing that comments are good for (that's just a general response to the phrasing of your second sentence; I haven't actually read the commentary that was moved to chat).
    – TylerH
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 21:45
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    @Basj Making Roomba conditions less strict is neither a good idea nor an answer to the question OP is asking above.
    – TylerH
    Commented Dec 30, 2020 at 21:46
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    On a discussion site like Meta, disagreeing with specific claims made in another answer to that same question is a valid use of answers. The format isn't perfect. Q&A wasn't designed for discussions. But we'd much prefer answers over comments when possible. At any rate, even if the answer is posing a frame challenge, a refutation of the frame challenge becomes an endorsement of the viewpoint from the question, which is also a valid answer. @TylerH
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 31, 2020 at 5:27

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