105

What can be done to reduce misuse of the [pyth] tag?

The tag is intended for questions relating to the esoteric language Pyth. The tag was created in 2017 and has one question. That does not mean it has not been used. Lots of questions have been created with the tag. I don't know how many, because every one of them has been a Python question wrongly tagged. When these questions come in, someone checks them and fixes the tags.

For practical purposes, the tag's only use since its creation (apart from the one question it was created for) has been to mean "this Python question needs its tags fixing".

The first sentence of the usage guidance for the tag says that it is NOT the tag for Python questions. Obviously people do not read the usage guidance.

What I would like is to reduce the amount of misuse of the tag, each of which creates a problem that someone has to notice and fix.

Options:

  1. Delete the tag. That is undesirable, because if it were being used correctly, it would be a valid tag for SO. (I'm pretty sure this one is out.)

  2. Rename the tag something that is less likely to be mistaken for . Like . Or something better.

  3. The tag remains as it is, but the behaviour of the tag GUI is changed to stop suggesting it to people, because it is never what they mean. I imagine this kind of change is impracticable.

  4. I drop this, and the use of the tag continues as it has done, because tags are misused all the time, and this instance is not important enough to do something about.

Any other options, or opinions?

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  • 29
    @Larnu Then I guess people must be typing the first four letters of python, seeing any result at all (even one that says "This is NOT the Python tag" underneath it) and saying to themselves "A tag. Good. That will do."
    – khelwood
    Nov 18, 2020 at 13:46
  • 17
    More likely folks just start typing and hit enter when they see the recommended box pop up with [python] in it. And then never notice they made a mistake because magical editor elves fix it for them.
    – Daniel F
    Nov 18, 2020 at 13:50
  • 4
    Most folks working in python have worked with at least half a dozen packages that start with py, but point taken.
    – Daniel F
    Nov 18, 2020 at 13:54
  • 12
    Concerning a possible new name for the tag, maybe pyth-code-golfis clearer.
    – Damien
    Nov 18, 2020 at 13:57
  • 18
    @Damien Yes. code-golf-pyth is less likely to get accidentally matched while typing python.
    – khelwood
    Nov 18, 2020 at 14:00
  • 19
    I would think pyth-lang might work. It follows the pattern of some other languages out there (slim-lang, crystal-lang, q-lang). But then again, even better would be pyth-the-language-not-python :). Nov 18, 2020 at 15:04
  • 33
    @HereticMonkey that's quite optimistic to think pyth-the-language-not-python would stop the users from abusing it. But if it works, we can rename C# to C#-is-not-C-or-C++
    – jps
    Nov 18, 2020 at 15:17
  • 37
    @jps And javascript-has-nothing-to-do-with-java Nov 18, 2020 at 15:21
  • 13
    This question is way too [pith]y
    – Machavity Mod
    Nov 18, 2020 at 16:14
  • 20
    If there is exactly one valid question with the pyth tag, maybe that tag doesn't need to exist? Nov 18, 2020 at 18:39
  • 5
    @CrisLuengo Why not? It's on-topic and adequately scoped, and a tag being unpopular has never been a reason to get rid of it. What else would you tag that one question with? Nov 18, 2020 at 20:30
  • 6
    @JohnMontgomery: The reason that the tag hasn't been auto-removed is because it keeps being added to questions that it shouldn't be added to. There's a tool that runs every month and removes tags that have been used only once and never again in the following 6 months: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/272094/… Nov 18, 2020 at 20:46
  • 14
    @jps: What you never saw c sharp for C# questions? This annoys not one but two groups.
    – Joshua
    Nov 18, 2020 at 22:06
  • 5
    @Joshua LOL, indeed didn't see that one, but have seen several times .net core
    – jps
    Nov 18, 2020 at 22:10
  • 12
    352 posts have been retagged from [pyth] to [python] in the past 3 years, which means around 1 post every 3 days Nov 19, 2020 at 3:00

7 Answers 7

48

A couple of people have suggested renaming the tag to .

Although it still starts with the first four characters of python, presumably the tag GUI would not suggest it any more unless people get as far as pyth-, which hopefully is much less frequent than people typing pyth and then hitting enter.

It also seems less intrusive than the other suggestions of etc.


As of 21 Nov 2020, the tag has been renamed .

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  • 14
    As an additional suggestion (not enough to warrant its own answer, surely), how about esolang-pyth? I’d prefer that to esoteric-pyth. Nov 19, 2020 at 11:08
  • 6
    How about renaming to python-on. :D Nov 19, 2020 at 22:37
  • @KonradRudolph I don't like that idea because Pyth does not itself state anything about being esoteric. It does, however, describe itself as a golfing language.
    – TylerH
    Nov 20, 2020 at 14:28
  • 6
    pyth-lang would seemly obviously have the same problems "Oh pyth-lang that is for the python language which is what I want!"
    – eric
    Nov 20, 2020 at 14:38
  • 2
    @eric It would only have some of the same problems, because a user typing into the tag field does not have to type pyth-lang in order to type python.
    – khelwood
    Nov 20, 2020 at 14:43
  • 3
    @TylerH IMHO, golfing languages are a true subset of esoteric languages. Nov 20, 2020 at 14:59
  • @KonradRudolph well technically, J boasts itself as being a serious language, but it is a golflang nevertheless. APL, for exactly the same reason. Nov 20, 2020 at 22:07
  • 1
    @eric Renaming to pyth-lang (or in fact renaming it at all) would seem to solve the main problem... Currently when you type "pyth" exactly the pyth tag jumps to the #1 position from nowhere (because it's an exact match), otherwise it's not suggested at all. python tag drops to #2 for this one search only. If the tag is renamed with a suffix then there will be no exact match whilst typing "pyth" and the tag won't jump to the top (but still hopefully be in the top 6). And the "correct" python tag will remain at #1 position (as it is currently for "py", "pyt", "pytho" and "python").
    – MrWhite
    Nov 21, 2020 at 1:41
  • "As of 21 Nov 2020, the tag has been renamed." - Although a "problem" now is the tag is difficult to find... it only appears in the search results once you type "pyth-l" (just the hyphen isn't sufficient; it appears to be ignored?). But this is really a generic problem with how the tag search works,
    – MrWhite
    Nov 21, 2020 at 12:15
29

As this has not yet been suggested in an answer, I suggest its rename to . This is so that it no longer conflicts with Python (due to the autocomplete) and the prefix is (IMHO) the most accurate representation of its purpose. This also makes sure that when a person is actually asking a Pyth question, they don't accidentally choose Python.

1
  • 13
    With only a single use, just retagging the question to esoteric-language and removing the tag altogether should do it. Nov 20, 2020 at 9:45
17

Rename it to .

I like the suggestion , but in my opinion some people may still think

What does "pyth-lang" mean? I guess "pyth" means "python", and "lang" means "language"! Yes, it's a pretty easy riddle to guess! The two parts are just abbreviations!

or, in different words,

Obviously here "lang" is an abbreviation for "language". Therefore, "pyth" should be an abbreviation for "python"!

To prevent this, let's use the "esolang" abbreviation, which will probably prevent this line of thinking.

BTW we have 1 question from 2015 tagged , which may be a weak indication that this syntax is reasonable.

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    pyth-not-python
    – Kapol
    Nov 19, 2020 at 12:33
  • 4
    Following the logic from the answer: What does "pyth-esolang" mean? I guess "pyth" means "python", I don't know what "eso" is but "lang" probably means "language"! Yes, it's a pretty easy riddle to guess!
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 19, 2020 at 12:34
  • 2
    Yes, that may happen too, but in my opinion less likely.
    – anatolyg
    Nov 19, 2020 at 12:36
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    I think "esolang" suffers from the same problem other attempts at clever compound words do
    – Machavity Mod
    Nov 19, 2020 at 13:35
  • That link is too meta, I didn't understand which problem you were talking about.
    – anatolyg
    Nov 19, 2020 at 14:16
  • 1
    A pyth-y-that-its-rarely-used Nov 19, 2020 at 21:52
  • I like this idea more than any suggested, but I still think the term "esolang" will not mean anything to many people.
    – xdhmoore
    Nov 20, 2020 at 2:45
  • pyth-terse-python, pyth-short-python, pyth-to-python. It seems to me that a good name should cause a python poster typing "pyth" to stop and say, "that tag sounds like something. idk what it is but it's probably not me".
    – xdhmoore
    Nov 20, 2020 at 2:52
  • 3
    @Machavity Esolang is an established word in the recreational programming community. After all, the wiki is named after the term. Nov 20, 2020 at 3:08
12

What about changing the search algorithm to still favour extremely popular tags rather than obscure ones? I know is a perfect match for the "pyth" string, but we are talking about a tag with 1 question versus one with 1.5m questions. How probable is that a user is indeed looking for ?

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    And what if someone actually is looking for it? Doesn't it make sense that if they type pyth, the tag for that will appear (and not get hidden because of a more popular one)?
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 19, 2020 at 11:27
  • 5
    It could still appear in the search results, but not as the first result. Nov 19, 2020 at 11:40
  • @DonaldDuck I am not sure if first has a meaning in the tag suggestion box... Would it be the tag to the right? to the left? top row? bottom? I would say that's a matter of personal orientation
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 19, 2020 at 12:17
  • 2
    Anyway counting on an algorithm change is quite a long-shot for a solution...
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 19, 2020 at 12:17
  • 10
    This is part of a much broader discussion. Tagging in general needs to be smarter
    – Machavity Mod
    Nov 19, 2020 at 13:31
  • 1
    The algorithm does favour popular tags to a degree, it's just that when there is an "exact match" the matched tag jumps to the top. This is the only time the pyth tag appears at all in the tag search results (and the python tag is pushed down the #2 slot). For all other typing variations: "py", "pyt", "pytho" and "python" (naturally), the python tag appears as the #1 search result and so sign of pyth. It's quite incredulous how people seemingly miss the python tag!?
    – MrWhite
    Nov 21, 2020 at 11:44
  • @Tomerikoo The element in the top/left of the tag suggestion box is the first element in the tabbing order, so is the first result that is selected when navigating using the keyboard.
    – MrWhite
    Nov 21, 2020 at 16:12
9

Delete the tag

TL;DR While it's certainly valid, I believe it's highly unlikely to be actually used. If anything, maybe just remake it after a second relevant question exists.

I believe isn't all that useful considering that it has only had one question; if you are keeping this tag there's no reason not to add tags for all other esoteric languages that see considerable use (for example, ones on Code Golf Stack Exchange).

However, I do not believe it is likely to receive another question, mostly because it is a relatively obscure language intended for golfing, hence chances are most questions would be questions related to golfing, especially considering it doesn't have (or isn't intended to have) a standard library, heavily limiting the number of useful questions.

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  • 9
    This... doesn't work really. Pyth actually is a programming language unto itself and questions about it need a tag. A better solution is a tag rename.
    – Machavity Mod
    Nov 19, 2020 at 3:26
  • 3
    @Machavity Fair, but not sure how useful it is, considering it has had a use for a single question three years ago, and because of the confusion that is the reason for this question in the first place; I'm also not sure how I'd feel by using a nonstandard naming convention like in the other answers - I think a rename would be perfectly reasonable however I strongly do not think procedural-pyth is appropriate - Pyth is based on Python, so it is procedural just as Python is, so it is essentially a useless descriptor made just to avoid an exact match.
    – somebody
    Nov 19, 2020 at 10:49
  • After looking at the discustion above though, I guess pyth-lang is the best option, especially considering there is already plenty of inconsistency with main tags (? idk, the ones that are not synonyms) - for example twitter-bootstrap-3 vs bootstrap-4
    – somebody
    Nov 19, 2020 at 10:51
  • 12
    @Machavity A language which generated 1 single question in over 10 years of SO really does not need a tag. Deleting it would be harmless.
    – Lundin
    Nov 19, 2020 at 11:01
  • 2
    @Lundin Until someone recreates the tag. We could synonym [pyth] to [python] to prevent re-creation, but what of questions actually about Pyth then? We have a lot of single question tags. That doesn't automatically make them bad or worthless
    – Machavity Mod
    Nov 19, 2020 at 13:41
  • 1
    @Machavity We can deal with that when it happens, 10 years from now...
    – Lundin
    Nov 19, 2020 at 13:49
  • 2
    Why don't we just move that single question to Code Golf Stack Exchange and remove the tag as you suggested?
    – Bobort
    Nov 19, 2020 at 18:05
3

Maybe the name of the tag could change to procedural-pyth

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  • 22
    what makes it any more procedural than python?
    – qwr
    Nov 19, 2020 at 10:50
  • 2
    @qwr The tag is procedurally generated through the means of discussion on meta.stackoverflow.com. Nov 19, 2020 at 22:13
  • 1
    Why the word "procedural"? What's the justification for this specific choice of word? Nov 21, 2020 at 1:09
-41

Propose renaming tag to python-lang-pyth

Keeping a separate python string in the tag should help clarify that it's distinct from Python (like a library tag python-requests), but is still related to it

Adding the lang string should help clarify that it's a language

Adding both should help push it to the back of the shortlist when a user types pyth in the tag box, while still allowing them (or more likely a reviewer) to find it as lang-pyth

If the search is still poor, consider using lang-python-pyth (or an alias for the one question?..)

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    Keeping a separate python string in the tag should help clarify that it's distinct from Python - I see it quite the other way around... If python is part of the tag, you would assume that the tag is related to Python, no? Also, this will probably make it come up with the suggestions for people typing pytho... and preserve the problem of careless users accepting any tag seems related
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 19, 2020 at 7:54
  • 2
    codegolf-lang-pyth seems more useful (insofar as pyth was created explicitly for use in code golf). I don't see what the python has to do with it -- we don't call the Python tag c-lang-python just because the canonical runtime for Python is implemented in C. Nov 19, 2020 at 22:07
  • 2
    Downvoters do not realize that Pyth compiles to Python. It is not unreasonable to see it as part of the Python ecosystem. I upvoted this answer. @Tomerikoo Exactly, Pyth is related to Python, and this suggestion reflects that. Proposing a hierarchical naming scheme totally makes sense. Nov 19, 2020 at 23:40
  • @janus taking into account that this tag currently has one sole question, and that the reason for this meta question is the fact that python questions are wrongly tagged with it - no, I don't think that python should be an explicit part of its name... (See the above comment by charles)
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 20, 2020 at 0:19
  • @Tomerikoo Why is it relevant how many questions are correctly tagged with pyth? The issue arose because questions were mistakenly tagged, a hierarchical naming scheme also solves this. A language is just an API with a syntax (in FP sometimes a DSL has no own syntax). So I don't see a fundamental difference between Pyth and Requests, and it is inconsistent to have one be prefixed with python- but the other not. Nov 20, 2020 at 3:41
  • 2
    @JanusTroelsen This is not a technical problem, the problem isn't with whatever the implementation detail about Pyth is. This a UI/UX problem, people tag things wrongly all the time, and we fix that. The suggested alternative tag name is, no offense, horrible.
    – Passer By
    Nov 20, 2020 at 18:47

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