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Recently I've received an interesting edit of my answer10k required to see. It changed "What's the final solution?" header to "What's the ultimate solution?", because of the completely unintentional connotations of my original phrasing.

Even if I was aware of the connotations of this particular wording, without the edit, I wouldn't have made the connection.

I don't want any part of my professional life to be connected with any political context. I hope it's the same for SO community, so let's check if everything is right in the above situation, from the perspective of different members:

  • "final solution" is a reference to the bad context and should not be used
  • edits of "final solution" wording is a reference to the bad context and should not be done
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  • 40
    I would look at it this way: will the phrase "final solution" trigger negative reactions in some people? I suspect so... in which case it's worth avoiding where possible, and accepting the edit. It doesn't require a majority of people to read your post in a negative way to make it worth avoiding unintentional hurt, even of only a few people.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 9:26
  • 10
    @astef: I suspect relatively few readers will go into the edit history - which is the only way they'd see the context that you don't want to be highlighted. How often do you bother to go into the edit history of an answer that you find?
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 9:36
  • 8
    We all come from different cultures/backgrounds. For some cultures/backgrounds seeing "final solution" won't trigger anything, but for some it will no matter which context. This edit is in no way an accusation - your choice of words wasn't deliberate, however knowing that many people will find it offending and trying to use the words anyway might not be the wisest thing to do.
    – ead
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 9:48
  • 11
    @MisterMiyagi: But it's not about what wikipedia says - it's about how human beings react, potentially involuntarily. There are all kinds of things we might say that we could justify intellectually, but which can cause unnecessary hurt. Why not just avoid that hurt?
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:35
  • 26
    @JonSkeet So far I am only seeing people react to how other hypothetical people might react. Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:40
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    I once had a pet that was shot. References to guns and ammunition trigger some nasty memories. Mind editing "Bullet" out of CodeCaster's answer, @Yivi?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:46
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    @yivi I'm honestly still failing to see how it was a reference to nazism in the first place. The context makes it very, very clear that it was not. Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:46
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    @Cerbrus: "Removing them implies the author of the words did intend those words to be interpreted harmfully." How does it imply that? That inference suggests that it's impossible for someone to use harmful words accidentally.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:51
  • 15
    @Cerbrus: That assumes that harm can only take place when it's intended, and I don't accept that assumption.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:56
  • 31
    No, that assumes that harm can only take place if there's a reasonable way something can be interpreted harmfully. Taking 2 words out of obvious context isn't reasonanble.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:58
  • 10
    @Cerbrus: I reject that assumption too... because when humans read words, associations are made before we go through an interpretation process of deciding whether the intention was to cause harm. If the only reactions were purely intellectual ones after considering the whole context, I'd agree - but that's not the way people work.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 11:00
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    If such unwarranted censorship is enforced, someone will soon be running a bot to check all comment phrases against all Nazi speeches and books, and we will be unable to post anything. Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 13:58
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    @TigerhawkT3: There is no-one in the discussion on this question that is actually bothered by the words "Final solution"... So far, all I've seen here are hypotheticals and what-ifs. "What if someone is uncomfortable <...>" You can't base policy on hypotheticals.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 21:52
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    I can understand why someone would be offended by the phrase "final solution". I can understand someone using the phrase innocuously without realising the connotations. But I can't understand the people who seem to be offended by the removal of the phrase "final solution". Someone considerately edited out a phrase with unintended connotations. How is that objectionable?
    – khelwood
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 22:01
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    @JonHeller It's not a problematic phrase with even a modicum of context. Any reader can tell that. Anyone who tells you otherwise is insisting on injecting something they know isn't there. That is intellectual dishonesty, and in today's culture, it usually stems from an ideological dogma that teaches them to look for "problematic" things for the purpose of causing as much disruption as possible. We should not be spending our time looking for problems that don't exist.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 19:36

7 Answers 7

107

I'm not a fan of attributing meaning to words where it clearly wasn't intended to be anything close to that.

Sure, the edit isn't necessarily bad, it's just different words to say the same thing.
I wouldn't roll back the edit, but I also wouldn't advise making edits like these:

Always assume good faith.

This goes as much for the editor as the reader.

I'm afraid that such edits just draw more attention to the negative interpretation of those words than just not bothering to edit it, would have done.

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    "I'm afraid that such edits just draw more attention to the negative interpretation of those words" - only if someone looks at the edit history, which I suspect is vanishingly rare. It does draw more attention to it for the author, which hopefully means they'll remember and avoid using those words in the future. Sounds like a win-win to me!
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:19
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    @Cerbrus: But where we spot the opportunity for people being hurt and have the ability to avoid that, I think it's entirely reasonable to do so.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:20
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    @JonSkeet Up to a point. This is just my personal opinion, but I think people are "hurt" too damn easily, and often just to get attention. In this example, there's absolutely no way that that line could've referred to what happened in WO II. To even consider that is a stretch.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:20
  • 15
    @Cerbrus: Sure, up to a point - but for me, "editing a post" is definitely within that point. Suggesting a site-wide search and replace would be beyond that point, IMO - but I really think this edit is a positive contribution to the site.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:21
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    My point is that anything can be offensive or "hurtful" if you completely take a select few words out of context. If you have to add a message saying "I'm sure this interpretation of those words isn't what you meant" to your edit, then don't waste time editing...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:25
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    "The Ultimate Solution is a 1973 alternate history novel by journalist and former Playboy interviewer Eric Norden, set in a world where the Axis forces won World War II and partitioned the world between them, and is noted for its particularly grim tone." First google search result.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:33
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    @Cerbrus: Would you seriously suggest that as many people are likely to have a negative reaction to that wording as to the original wording? If not, then the edit made things better IMO, and I would encourage that sort of edit.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:34
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    Yea, sure, I'm comparing a book to the holocaust. I'm the bad guy here. You're using criteria like "will <...> trigger negative reactions in some people?". All I'm saying is: People should stop being offended for the sake of being offended. History is a fact. Deal with it. "Sorry you didn't intend this" doesn't mean the edit doesn't imply you do intend that meaning. If it were on my post, I might as well roll back the edit with a message "Don't be dumb, it's obvious I wasn't referring to the holocaust."
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:34
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    @Cerbrus: I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree. My personal approach is definitely to avoid using words that others may find offensive where I'm aware of it, and to accept corrections as graciously as I can.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 10:50
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    I don't think a term has to be offensive to avoid it, in this case I personally avoid the term simply because I don't want to create the association to the Holocaust, even at best this can be simply distracting. Maybe the association is stronger for me as I'm German, and the German equivalent is more obscure and would essentially always be an intentional reference to the Holocaust. Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 15:18
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    @MadScientist: Yea, you really can't compare that specific German term with those 2 English words which are contextually completely different, on SO.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 15:22
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    If I happened to use a header, and was pointing out and providing a final bluff statement using "final solution", and somebody happened to propose an edit indicating that I was making a reference to a offensive political party. I would reject the proposal, revert the change if it was approved, and immediately flag the behavior for a moderator to handle. I would find it more offensive that, an edit was being made, and the implication I have anything to do with that offensive political statement but I value and choose my words very carefully in everything I submit to a Stack Exchange community Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 15:22
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    The edit is just clearly bad for non english speakers... ultimate is not the same as final in develop terms.
    – gbianchi
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 0:14
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    @Cerbrus those 2 English words are not only contextually different here on SO, they are an arbitrary choice of a translator for the actual German term. Any synonym to those 2 English words would be a valid translation too. So if we assume that “ultimate solution” is a valid synonym to “final solution” (I’m not discussing that), it would also be a valid translation of the German term we try to avoid. So it’s entirely pointless to edit a post, to replace those English terms by a synonym. It would be an entirely different thing in German though, where we can replace literal matches by synonyms.
    – Holger
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 7:05
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    @JonSkeet The road to hell is paved with good intentions. While avoiding terms that might offend others seems like noble thing to do, it can certainly backfire in the long run. Context is the king, and if we start dancing around words that might offend or hurt even when they are used completely out of context, soon enough we will run out of words. Different words have different meaning and carry different connotations to different people. We simply cannot cater to all.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 12:49
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Imho the whole topic (the edit and this question) are rised from nowhere.

the term "final solution" refers to Hitler's policies

The context is important. Was it a post about history? No? Hitler was telling "Guten Morgen" every day, should those two words be removed from German language? No?

We are programmers and words such as "master/slave" are our professional terms. I refuse to take modern nonsense into account in my daily work, "your words become your actions" is not truth, otherwise Call of Duty players would have killed all their schoolmates already.

There is a profession to correct public speeches of others. It exists because some people may decide to be insulted by someone's words.

SO is about programming. It's a programmers site, not about history, politics or modern movements. It's agnostic to your country past or future. We are talking about programming here, rest is offtopic. If public visitors (non programmers) come here, they have to adjust, nor we have to adjust our established terminology to make them happier.

When colleague say "Let's kill it", he doesn't talk about murdering peoples. When another programmer say "Final solution" he means solution to the problem, which happens to be final. He didn't mean that other thing of Hitler. Simply.

Can the expression “final solution” be used on the site?

Yes of course. Slave, kill, blacklist, etc. are also good. I will understand you correctly and the other programmers here too.

If someone decide to edit it without it losing the meaning, just let him.

P.S.: it would be funny if "ultimate solution" will insult another group of people. It's so stupid to be unable to express obvious intent with certain words combination. How many of such exists? Should our kids learn them all?

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    It has already begun though... bugs.python.org/issue34605 , github.com/ContributorCovenant/contributor_covenant/issues/569
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 15:07
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    SE's stance on black/whitelist
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 18:34
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    @Gimby oh, those dumpster fire. Yeah...
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 24, 2020 at 22:17
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    There are over 3,000 questions that are selected by 'is:q "final solution"' on Stack Overflow. There are over 7,000 answers that are selected by 'is:a "final solution"'. The OP's question is making a mountain out of a molehill, and there are many other mountains and even more other molehills that should be dealt with more urgently. Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 8:20
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    In case anyone is interested, this whole "words are violence" nonsense has its roots in postmodernism. People literally believe that words may cause them physical harm, and the only criteria of defining which words are violence is their own perception. This latter idea is called "standpoint epistemology".
    – Passer By
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 8:54
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    I would disagree about the "Guten Morgen" part. The term "Endlösung" is gone from the German language, using it outside of Nazi documentaries will have people staring at you wondering what is wrong with you. It's like a swastika. Sure, there are other legitimate uses especially in other cultures, but generally speaking, running around with one is not a good idea, if you don't want to be mistaken for a Nazi. It's not "just a random word Hitler used". It's a very distinctive Nazi ideology term.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 12:27
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    @nvoigt, good point. This word is forbidden because of guilt the germans feel currently for their nazis past. It's cultural specific, local, let them be. What I don't understand is why "final solution" phrase, which happens to be just a translation of that bad german word, should be forbidden/censored? If german understand "final solution" as "Endlösung" and not as "finale Lösung" it's his personal problem.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 12:59
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    Ah, so.. the translation "Final solution" is bad. Is "End solution" fine? How about String final SOLUTION = "solution"; in code?
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 13:05
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    @AndrewT. With no small amount of irony, the phrase "ultimate solution" appears in the text of the SE stance on black/whitelisting. "Though removing and adjusting such offensive terminology is itself not an ultimate solution, [...]". Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 16:40
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    As a German, I have to disagree wholeheartedly. "Guten Morgen" is just a totally normal German phrase that is used every day. "Endlösung" ist never ever used in the German language anymore (except in documentaries about the Nazi regime and by far right wing extremists who dream of the Fourth Reich). Commented Sep 29, 2020 at 13:26
31

One of the reasons why we have edits is so that the community can improve the post.

In this case, a member of the community improved the post by removing words that have an unfortunate connotation.

No one is saying that you should recognize that connotation, or anything else related to your behavior; rather they're doing their part to ensure the post gets the best look it possibly can.

That's entirely appropriate for an edit.

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    Did they improve the post though? its relatively probable that someone else could have negative connotations with the phrase "ultimate solution". For example, changing black list to blocklist; that could have negative connotations for people who sympathized with the hunger strikers that died in the H block prison. Should I edit block list to something other than blacklist and blocklist because I know both could have negative connotations. Where do you draw the line on edits like this? In software, final solution is a known, self explanitory term
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 9:20
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    My other problem with edits like this is "ultimate solution" does not translate to "final solution". For people who speak English as a second language; final solution is a known term in the software world. Ultimate solution is less clear, to me at least and can lead to confusion. To me I would interpret the "ultimate solution" as looking for the most performant solution, which is different to how I would interpret someone looking for a final solution
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 9:24
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    @Kevin How is "final solution" a known software term? I googled "final solution software" and nothing but holocaust pages came up. Wikipedia does not know about it either: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution_(disambiguation)
    – nvoigt
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 12:32
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    @nvoigt From what I can tell everyone in this entire thread (with maybe the exception of yourself) knows exactly what final solution means. Does that alone not indicate it to be a known self explanitory term?
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 14:36
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    Even from a question quality perspective, the use of ultimate adds ambiguity that final does not. Ultimate can mean either final or most performant, in this use-case, both would make perfect sense. Like I said, I would interpret ultimate as most performant in a use-case like this, which is not What the question wanted. I don't think we should degrade question quality with changes like this.
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 14:48
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I think that especially your second bullet point makes this more of a philosophical question: you used the phrase innocently, and now thanks to that edit you feel it was made a political issue.

This causes you to wonder: is it a bad edit, because now you have negative feelings about the term, or is it a good edit, because people who knew about the term and might be negatively impacted, now don't have to read it anymore.

I'd tend to the latter.

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    Let's not talk about this in vague terms. What kind of "negative impact" are you actually talking about?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 20:18
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    That statement applies to any term or phrase that could have offensive connotations.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 26, 2020 at 10:44
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    Or the other way around: does it harm you in any way that that phrase was edited out? Do you feel your freedom of speech being eroded? What if someone posts "Formatting your hard drive to get rid of a compiler error is like the Tiananmen Square of solutions"?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 26, 2020 at 10:50
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    The harm I perceive from the edit is the promotion of a critical race theory value system, and that is no small harm. Granted, that would not be the case if we weren't in the middle of that top down cultural pressure, but we objectively are (including or especially here on SO). The only "negative impact" I can see from leaving it in is a very small number of people feel a little bad for a few minutes and then move on with their day. Do you have some greater level of harm in mind?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 26, 2020 at 10:59
  • @jpmc I don't follow your reasoning. You think the edit made it into a political issue, or that the text was not harmful in any way?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 26, 2020 at 12:38
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    I explicitly told you the only "harm" I can reasonably imagine from the phrase as it was used, which is not actually harm of any kind. That's why I'm asking what kind of harm you expect will come of it. I think the edit comes from and promotes a mindset that is doing harm to my and SO's culture as we speak.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 26, 2020 at 12:54
  • And I told you explicitly that I don't understand what you're talking about. So because you saw no problem in the phrase, there was no problem? That is indeed a harmful mindset. If that's not what you meant, would you explain it in more plain language to me?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 26, 2020 at 14:30
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    If there's actual harm that would occur, you should be able to name it. I asked you to (twice before, three times now). If you can't name it, then your assertion that it exists is unsupported, and that means you can't legitimately use it to support your position.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 26, 2020 at 14:52
4

"final solution" is a reference to the bad context and should not be used

If you see "final solution" as a reference to the bad context is subject of one's own interpretation but I would dare to say it is an inappropriate association.

Stack Overflow is a community to seek, find and give help with problems related to programming.

Essentially, problems need solutions to be solved.

A "final solution" is IMHO a solution, which "finally solves" the issue and/or answers the question asked (f.e. after some feedback in the comments to the said answer and the specific answer got improved to finally solve the issue). That's all.

The term "final solution" or any other terms used regarding to the topics discussed at Stack Overflow should not be connected with any specific meaning beside what's on-topic here.

Following to answer:

Can the expression “final solution” be used on the site?

Yes, of course. Do not interpret things in something, which are completely off any sense and context.

edits of "final solution" wording is a reference to the bad context and should not be done

However, edits are there to improve a post. If a user feels to improve your post in this way by cleaning out the bad context someone might associate with any wording inside of the post then this is completely fine as well.

But "final solution" isn't ultimately connected to the bad context in the first place and not each and every answer which contains "final solution" should now be edited to shape. That's just a specific case. Nothing more, nothing less.

1

Yes, it can, if you are referring the solution to the software development problem. And even if it isn't, I bet you could have used it. The term itself isn't bad, what is bad is when you use it to denoting that you want to carry the negative actions that the term connotative.

Counterexample for our US friends: Germany has a Nazi museum since 2015. Yes, an entire museum dedicated to explain that part of German history. Not to celebrate it, nor commemorate it, but to document it. It's my opinion that Germany is preventing the adage of "those that cannot learn from history are condemned to repeat it". If the Germans can do that, I bet the rest of the world can do that too. (BTW, they also have several mausoleums remembering the victims)

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    This would be relevant if the OP's use of "final solution" was an intentional reminder or record of historical events; and that does not seem to be the case.
    – khelwood
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 8:39
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    @khelwood that's what the editor through too. This is the counterargument to that idea.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 14:52
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    I'm saying that your counterexample, which is a museum in Germany, is not analogous to this situation because it's an intentional reminder, done for a particular purpose, not an accidental one. If someone set up a museum with accidental Nazi content, it would probably need to be revised.
    – khelwood
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 14:55
  • @khelwood again, accidental or not has no relevance. That's the point of the example: even when intentional context is more relevant.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 17:49
-7

If it were my post, I would roll this edit back purely as a matter of principle.

SO has become inundated with a push toward critical race theory philosophy (or whatever name you want to apply to the modern social movement). The most prominent example of this in action would be the removal of Monica as a moderator, but it has shown up in many other ways. This ideology is destructive because it drives people to judge others according to race, gender, and other classes rather than as individuals. (It quite literally explicitly rejects the idea that you are uniquely defined as an individual with your own thoughts, choices, and actions rather than as merely a member of particular classes.) This is the ideology that has produced notions such as "white privilege," "systemic racism" (which does not comprise of actual racist acts), and "social justice" (which would be more descriptively named "group justice" or "class justice" and has little to do with historical and typical meanings of "justice"). This sort of edit constitutes an embrace of the concept of "microaggressions," which is an effort to convince people to constantly interpret virtually everything they do or experience as an attack based on classes rather than in the spirit in which it was intended. The result of such thinking is that people cannot engage in constructive interactions.

So while this edit would not, in isolation, be a problem, I oppose it because it is one small expression of a much larger destructive trend.

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  • "Quite literally explicitly"? What does that mean?
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 20:09
  • 3
    @10Rep It's a combination of expressing shock that it embraces such a claim and emphasizing the fact that it's a core principle, as opposed to some side implication of its principles.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 20:14
  • 1
    Well, one thing, StackOverflow actually don't promote such edits. Even in tour and COC, they specifically state, "Always assume good faith". So just as a side note, StackOverflow doesn't embrace nor promote such edits.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 20:20
  • 4
    @10Rep The CoC means absolutely nothing when it comes to promoting their ideas on race, gender, and other classes or silencing ideas they oppose. Monica's treatment makes that blatantly obvious. I've experienced violations by employees over it.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 20:22
  • I was not here when all that happened, but I would like to say that most users abide by the COC. And site moderators, not the employees , but the moderators whom we elect, enforce this policy. In fact, I have seen certain site moderators remind other users about it.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 20:24
  • 4
    @10Rep The trail is still there. You can go to meta.stackexchange and search for "Firing Community Managers". There's multiple threads and they're all a long read.
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 20:33
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    @10Rep Some moderators are dutiful about upholding the values that underpinned the old "Be Nice" policy. Several employees are not when it comes to people who disagree with their sociopolitical beliefs.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 25, 2020 at 21:12

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