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Up front edit to point out that downvotes and existing questions do not address any of the points I have made. I will tweak my post to reflect accurate comment functionality, but the point remains the same, and unanswered.

I have been using Stack Overflow for a really long time (although only for about 2.5 years with an account). Only in the past day did I get enough reputation points to comment on answers and questions, although this would have been my primary mode of interaction with the site over the years, if I had the ability.

PROPOSED SOLUTION

Have an aggressive and separate rate limit allowance on comments and the reputation points associated with them. Say you're new to the site, you have a 5 comment allowance. If your comments are neutral (not upvoted), you get 5 new comments every n amount of time (once a month, maybe even once year?). If you get comments that are upvoted, you earn a new comment for every comment upvote (or something like that).

I think this or something similar would improve site functionality dramatically, making it far more welcoming to newcomers and people who have the good sense to know who the experts are and that they aren't one of them, without clogging the site with bad comments.

ANTICIPATING PUSHBACK

Why so long to get reputation points?

I mostly find the answers in existing Q&A's on this site! That's a good thing. There are lots of questions and lots of answers out there, and most of the time people like me can find what we need. The inability to upvote useful answers while using the site with only 1 solitary reputation point is frustrating, but nonetheless tolerable. (I do believe upvotes should be allowed for people new to the site, I don't think coding advice is the type of thing people upvote when it's unhelpful. But that isn't the point of this post). Stack Overflow is unique among the Stack Exchange communities when it comes to earning reputation points because of the proliferation of common questions and the objectivity of what a successful answer looks like.

Why have separate comment reputation?

Quite often I have needed to ask for clarification on an existing answer that it is almost all the way there. Asking a new question would inevitably be labeled as a duplicate. As a result, I then have to do more searching to find the details I need. This is frustrating, time consuming, and I think a major flaw in how this site works.

Why not add an answer or edit to get the reputation points?

By way of example, on this answer, I knew that there was a built in colors.to_hex() method. This would make an appropriate comment. Editing the answer is, in my opinion, out of line, and unhelpful. The method the user included was very informative - it's a great example of how to convert RGBA to hex. It still lets the user know what the correct solution would be. Any edits to the answer would either require restructuring the entire answer (which is way too much work/very presumptuous) or would be hacky (an edit at the end saying "to_hex()" exists; in my opinion it's better to see this information in a comment).

Adding an answer is a whole other level of knowledge and effort. People who could use comment functionality effectively to ask for clarification or point out additional information on an answer may be several years out from feeling like they could answer any questions better than, or different from, existing answers. This was my case. In the above-linked question, I think I could now provide an answer, but it would require a lot of work for possibly no payout (no reputation points). Doing this to just get comment access creates a large barrier to many people. I thankfully finally had a new question I couldn't find anywhere on the site yet, and that's the only reason I am able to post here.

Edit

The site has reminders everywhere to not be hostile to new users, but nobody follows through on this. Everything about proposing a solution to the problem faced by many beginners is met with hostility instead of solution-seeking behavior. Aggressive downvoting for a question that does not deserve it (no comments were left giving the only useful feedback I have received so far - to account for spam in my suggestion, which I already partially accounted for - just answers and downvotes. What is wrong with people? This experience is awful.)

Regarding comments and spam, you mean to tell me that a programming site can't auto-detect spam comments? Even with human-guided machine learning? I'm fairly sure Twitter and plenty of other sites manage spam this way. "Use your time to copy edit the site to earn commenting privileges", they say. Well, what stops a bot from running questions and answers through a grammar check to be able to get commenting privileges? Nothing much. MS Word now has contextual edits - it catches doubled words (has for a while), tells you if you've used the wrong part of speech in a sentence, etc. Meanwhile, this arbitrary restriction is penalizing non-spam users of the site, and for what? Comments can be contributions just like anything else can be. Spam = bad. I agree. But why not lock an account that has even one spam comment reported? And all accounts that upvote it? All of this behavior should be incredibly easy to manage. I genuinely don't think it's the massive hurdle people are pretending it is.

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  • 9
    Comments can't be downvoted, and deletion doesn't necessarily mean it was a bad comment (maybe it was just no longer needed, for example).
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 14, 2020 at 17:28
  • 6
    You could also make 25 good edits to current posts that needs editing and gain reputation enough to make a comment. If answering is not your thing, that is. You can find editing guidelines on the FAQ index in the help center.
    – Scratte
    Jul 14, 2020 at 17:40
  • 4
    Does this answer your question? Feature request on commenting vs editing with a reputation value under 50
    – gnat
    Jul 14, 2020 at 17:44
  • 3
    @lead You gave an example of an answer for which editing didn't make sense. Not examples of editing grammar and phrasing on posts that really needs it.
    – Scratte
    Jul 14, 2020 at 18:13
  • 2
    You could add in that explanation for why you won't edit posts but I don't think it helps your case.
    – BSMP
    Jul 14, 2020 at 18:46
  • 4
    What you are proposing is getting the ability to comments, by commenting. Not by adding any contributions that are here to stay. Why should you gain privileges to the site, if you do not wish to contribute?
    – Scratte
    Jul 14, 2020 at 18:52
  • 2
    it looks like your fundamental misunderstanding is a belief that editing is not relevant here. I got my first 200 or 300 rep points here with edits. And if memory serves I got first few hundreds rep points at other Stack Exchange sites where I am active the same way. Not only editing is relevant - it is most convenient, safe and reliable way to gain initial reputation. And it also helps you learn how to better gain more rep with answers and questions along the way
    – gnat
    Jul 14, 2020 at 19:03
  • 3
    @lead please edit your proposal to explain how it solves the reason for 50 rep limit - preventing spam comments. (Side note: highlighting the fact you are not willing to make an effort to provide content as answers since it requires effort does not make the proposal more convincing... you may want to reword some of the proposal to look less lazy) Jul 14, 2020 at 19:20
  • 8
    @lead One comment regarding your edit "Aggressive downvoting for a question that does not deserve it" - Are you aware that downvotes on feature requests on meta often mean disagreement with the proposed change? It's not aggressive. Jul 15, 2020 at 4:38
  • 3
    you are expected to do useful edits on good posts. Study how successful editors do that (example) and learn to do like they do. That's what I meant when I wrote that it will help you gain more rep from your own questions and answers, you will learn how people expect good posts to look like and how you can write such posts yourself
    – gnat
    Jul 15, 2020 at 5:56
  • 3
    The site has reminders everywhere to not be hostile to new users, but nobody follows through on this. I have not been hostile here. I have spent time to explain why I did not agree with you, and have insisted that votes on meta were used by the community to say whether we agree or not with a proposal. As I have already said, I understand your point of view, and think that the current question is fine in proposing a change in SO rules. Simply I do not agree with it, and most of voters do not either. Jul 15, 2020 at 12:08
  • 1
    We want answers to questions instead of commentary to a question. Since you can (almost) always submit commentary to your own answer. The site also has reminders to limit the amount of commentary you submit but nobody follows through on that either. Jul 15, 2020 at 14:40
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    @lead - What kind of comments? Why are you not suggesting those improvements yourself to the contribution? What type of comments are we talking about exactly? If you are talking about asking additional questions, as commentary to an answer, that absolutely should not be done. Can you provide an example of those enormously helpful commentary? Don't lump me into the pool of Stack Overflow users. I have not been an active member of that particular Stack Exchange community for years. I am only here as a representative of another community. I don't see how my downvote was aggressive. Jul 15, 2020 at 16:30
  • 2
    @lead: I do not want to be rude of offensive. I have read your arguments and I think I have understood them. Yet I do not agree with you. If you want to participate in a community, then you have to accept the community rules. Said differently I really do not want to give comment or direct edit priviledges to people that do not accept the community rules. This is my conception of how a democratic community can be ruled. I apologize if I am not clear here but English is not my first language: I know how to write technical English, but I am less proficient when it comes to ideas. Jul 15, 2020 at 16:38
  • 2
    @lead: you may be right. Maybe tons of possible new users would love to able to comment and would benefit of it. But the number of people who can spend a part of their private time in posting answers and moderating this site is not large enough. And as far as I am concerned, I believe I have spent a lot of time in helping other users here. I have done it willingly because SO helped me a lot when I had to learn new technologies, and I wanted to give back what I recieved. But I cannot spend more time here, that is the reason why I cannot support anything that would require more moderation time. Jul 15, 2020 at 17:22

2 Answers 2

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The 50 reputation point requirement for comments is to prevent spam. Comments are harder to get rid of than questions and answers; in most cases it takes a moderator to get rid of them.

Your proposal would give a spam account 5 comments immediately and allow them to give themselves more by creating other accounts to up vote their own comments.

This would require re-creating the voting system currently used for posts for comments, including detection of fraudulent voting activity. Since it would be impossible for just a handful of diamond moderators to manage the flood of spam, it would also require new flags, delete votes for comments, review queues, etc. so that the community can help moderate comments.

That's an awful lot of developer effort up front to permanently increase the moderation workload on the community.

If you can figure out a way to lower or remove the reputation requirement without increasing the amount of spam or the amount of moderation required, you'd probably get some support.

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  • 8
    Moderator note: Rude comments to this answer were deleted. Nobody is expected to have a discussion with you in the comments before answering. When you post a question on Meta, you're inviting the community to weigh in with their opinions, which should be done in the form of answers.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Jul 15, 2020 at 8:11
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    I don't think it's only that though; I have always seen the staged unlocking of site features as a way to introduce people to the site and slowly get the lay of the land, to prevent them immediately diving off a cliff or stepping into a sinkhole. Commenting is just one of the many things that can be easily abused when you haven't seen and understood the rules.
    – Gimby
    Jul 15, 2020 at 9:34
  • @Cody Gray you've proved that it's not at all hard to delete comments. None of my comments were rude that you deleted.
    – lead
    Jul 15, 2020 at 16:17
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    @lead Your first comment was indeed rude, insulting, and dismissive of BSMP's answer; I reviewed it myself. Yes, it is easy for moderators to delete comments. We do so frequently.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Jul 15, 2020 at 22:08
  • @Cody Gray, considering "it's almost impossible to delete comments" is the most common reason given for not allowing a separate track of comment reputation, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
    – lead
    Jul 16, 2020 at 19:12
  • 3
    No one has ever given that as a reason. They've said that moderating comments is difficult, because there are no tools for it. I don't want to sign up to review each and every incoming comment; do you? Deleting is easy, but I don't want to have to go around deleting more comments than I already do. I have better things to do with my life. If you haven't yet contributed in even a trivial way to this site, enough to earn the privilege to comment, then you can either do so or not do so, but you don't get to post a comment. @lead
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Jul 16, 2020 at 19:16
  • @Cody I'm observing your cynicism in another recently asked question about chats. People are pointing out that there's this whole need for discussion for new users, and you're ignoring it. I suspect you'd have less moderation and less arguing you'd have to do if you had comment reputation points and rate limiting. Lots of the comments from sufficiently reputationed people are apparently garbage, and putting a lot of work on your plate already. Why not make the site more functional and accessible for new users while also lightening your work load?
    – lead
    Jul 16, 2020 at 19:27
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    It doesn't even come close to lightening the work load. Do you know how much work it is to moderate chat? The best way to lighten the workload is to have a minimum reputation requirement. This is exactly what we have. It isn't about cynicism in any way. If you want to go discuss things, there are zillions of other sites on the Internet to do that. You don't need to use Stack Overflow. @lead
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Jul 16, 2020 at 19:29
  • @Cody Gray, you seem to be misunderstanding my proposal, and also not really engaging with the other proposal enough to figure out a way for it to work well. (I can think of a bunch). My proposal is to have comments limited by a separate amount of reputation specific to good commenting. I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't lighten your work load. If somebody makes a ton of bad comments, they would lose comment access, even if they still had points to leave answers, etc. How does this increase your load?
    – lead
    Jul 16, 2020 at 19:36
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Although I understand that not being able to comment can be frustrating for a new user, I do not think that the rule deserves to be changed.

Because comments are not first class citizens on SO. They are here to ask clarification or to help the authors to improve their post. Questions and answers stay there with all their edits and are managed by the community (up/down voted and if needed can be closed and deleted by the community). Comments are not. IMHO an example of a very useful comment is a comment that proposes an improvement to an answer, that is used by the answerer and immediately deleted because non longer needed. How would you want to handle that? How to automatically distinguish it from an erroneous one that is deleted the same, once its author realizes that they wrote a stupid thing?

That means that adding a rep. counter for comments is not that easy. And (still IMHO) it is not really useful either. Any poster can comment on their own post, and earning 50 rep. points to be allowed to comment on any post is not that hard. English is not the first language for a lot of users, and it is easy to propose edits to just fix language errors. And even if it is not a major improvement, it does improve the global site quality.

Moreover, your last examples are good reasons to not change anything. If you intend to use a comment to give a slight improvement to an answer, please do not. Or more exactly do not expect it to remain only in a comment. If the answer author uses it to improve their post, it is fine, and you can just remove your post. If they do not, then the best way is to post a new answer explaining that it is a complement to the other answer. And if you want to ask clarifications on an answer because you cannot understand to use it on your actual context, do not use a comment. Here again the good way is to ask a new question with a reference to the other one and explaining why you could not use it and what your precise question is. It may be answered in comments if it was really trivial and if nothing needs to be added to the other answers, but it can also deserves a new answer, either on your own question or on the original one. But being a new question, it will receive a higher audience than a comment on an older post.

Long story made short, I am still not sure than the current way of handling comments on SO is the possible best, but I am sure to disagree with your proposal.

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  • Not added to the answer, because I know that it is questionnable, but I have already seen new users using answers to ask good questions to OP. And every time I see one, I make a comment with it (leaving the original commenter name) and ask the poster to delete their own (non) answer. Jul 14, 2020 at 18:21
  • It's pretty easy to add a flag functionality for why a comment was deleted. Furthermore the organizational strategy you're proposing (one that invalidates the purpose of comments) is a nightmare. I do not want telescoping questions on this site when all I need is a slightly better answer to an existing question! Higher levels of exposure do not make it easier for users to find the answer to their question, it just creates a mess of similar questions to have to sort through. This is the entire purpose of upvotes! Your answer is bad but I can't downvote yet.
    – lead
    Jul 14, 2020 at 18:30
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    @lead: This is the purpose of answers on Meta: let the community vote to decide what is prefered by contributors. BTW, when I find a comment on a answer of mine asking more details, I often advise to ask a new question with a [mcve] because it is essential to understand a problem. A comment may only be enough for trivial things. Jul 14, 2020 at 21:07
  • The problem with all of the logic of people here is that it creates an exclusive, self-definitional club of people. People who have success in the system defend against changes to the system, for no good reason that I have yet to see. I, for example, cannot downvote your answer yet. I wish I could, but I didn't set those rules. And if things keep up the way they are, I won't be able to any time soon.
    – lead
    Jul 15, 2020 at 1:04
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    @lead You fail to take into account that we all started with 1 reputation point here. Plus, when you gain enough points on one SE site, you get enough on the others to comment and vote right away. It's not too difficult to earn the first 50 points, editing is a stable way to get there, but good answers would get there much faster. But please stop being rude against other users. Jul 15, 2020 at 4:48
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    @lead You are right on one point: SO lives through a community of people who agree on some rules. Among those rules, one says that to be able to fully participate, new users have to prove that they accept to do some efforts by earning some rep. And the more rep, the more tools. Then rules can evolve provided a majority of the community agree on the change. I believe that you sincerely want to improve the site with simply commenting, and it can make sense. And you were right in posting a question on meta to propose it... Jul 15, 2020 at 7:39
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    ... But the votes, comments and answers say that the majority of active members think that the risk (spams and increase in moderation task) if higher than the benefit (good comments from newcomers). I would be glad that you can comment anywhere and even downvote this answer. But as others and I have already said, it it easy to earn 50 rep points, and that is the only way to go if you want it. Jul 15, 2020 at 7:42
  • @ModusTollens, I didn't fail to take anything into account. You are a group of people who have self-selected for commentary in this community, and you are systematically being hostile to the people who disagree with you, because none of them can upvote or comment in this meta. You are wrong about how SE works. I have had enough points on a bunch of other sites to comment and upvote for a long time now, and non on SO. What you are describing as "easy" is really "easy for you".
    – lead
    Jul 15, 2020 at 16:27
  • @Serge Ballesta, the community of opinions you describe is self-selected. Your logic is circular. The people who can comment and up and downvote are all people who are bound to not have had the problems and barriers that I am describing here. You cannot point to a group that is systematically biased against a change in the system as proof that the system shouldn't change.
    – lead
    Jul 15, 2020 at 16:30
  • @lead - Every single user who can submit a comment, were new users at one point in time, and were unable to submit a comment until they had the reputation to do so. You earn reputation by submitting questions or answers. You do not earn reputation by submitting commentary, and for that reason, any commentary you might submit is consider to be temporary. Most comments I flag are not helpful, and I flag hundreds of comments daily, while most are some form of a "thank you" others are commentary from other users asking their own questions Jul 15, 2020 at 16:57
  • @Security Hound, I'm aware it's all tempory, and I didn't propose having comments contribute to reputation points. What I did propose is that there be a separate track of reputation points for comments to people could be regulated in this particular venue of participation without it impacting the rest of the site. I think you'll find that there are a whole bunch of people who would make it through to higher reputation points if they could integrate into the site via comments first.
    – lead
    Jul 15, 2020 at 17:00

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