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Downvoting is a bigger privilege than upvoting and it plays a crucial role in keeping the content on this site clean. Downvoting is our most powerful tool for us, non-moderator users. Downvotes are a strong signal both to future readers and the author of the post that something is wrong and the experts on this site deem the post to be of little value for future readers.

The new tooltip popovers contain the following explanation:

Downvote this question if you find it unclear or not useful.
Downvote this answer if you find it unclear or not useful.

As everyone knows we rate content, not the users. Votes are not meant to be friendly or offensive. There's no shame in using the downvote button just as there is no shame in using the upvote button whenever you like. It is our own personal choice how we rate the content and what we do with our votes as long as we do not abuse the rules.

There will always be two extremes possible. Some users mostly downvote:

Some user's vote stats

However, there's a number of active users who decided to never cast a single downvote or use them very sporadically:

enter image description here

While we value contributions from both groups of users, it sometimes feels like downvotes are treated as toxic behaviour. It could be very much the reason why some people decide to never cast a single downvote even if it seems like it is easier to cast downvotes than upvotes. There are almost 8 times more upvotes on Stack Overflow than downvotes.

Downvotes are very important and necessary for this site to function properly. If a user posts an answer and the answer is wrong then we must downvote. It is not enough to just ignore and never upvote it. Without our downvotes, users might never know that their 0 scored answer was not useful. 0 score means nothing.

Upvotes and downvotes are the community's way of separating the cure from the poison. We must use both of them.

Many new users get very offended by a single downvote on their question, yet they have completely no objection for the upvotes. Why is that? Why so many users demand that the downvotes be accompanied by an explanatory comment yet nobody demands an explanation for the upvotes? Do people really value the fake Internet points so much or is it about acceptance by strangers? Why is their perception of our voting systems so skewed?

It's true that the ratio of upvotes to downvotes is often driven by the tag, but I am pretty sure that we all encounter bad questions and answers in every tag. There's always something to upvote as well as downvote. If we see a badly asked question, then we should downvote. If we see a wrong or outdated answer then we should downvote.

Do we have any ideas about what we could do or change to encourage people to spend a little bit more of their votes on downvoting posts?

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    The solution to this problem is the holy grail of Stack Overflow. I can't overstate how important and crucial this subject is and how much effort the company should be investing in bringing downvotes as the widely admitted form of curation without the poor recurring stigma.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 16:26
  • 32
    ++, but I'll be happy starting off with fewer upvotes. I swear there is an upvote bot running on the tags where I hang. These stray, single upvotes prevent bad questions from being deleted.
    – toolic
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 16:30
  • 15
    I thought that current SO stance was that downvotes are unwelcoming and therefore discouraged.
    – Kreiri
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 18:47
  • 14
    @Kreiri that was never the case, although the misconception emerges fairly often. Relevant reading: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/366889
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 19:22
  • 8
    Getting things closed that really deserve to be closed should also be encouraged. Seems harder and harder in the current "be nice" environment to get more than one close vote sometimes even when the question is pure garbage
    – charlietfl
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 19:32
  • 32
    For anyone who decides to post an idea here: Do not delete replies under this post if they are met with disapproval. Even bad ideas bring something to the table. If your answer starts to gather downvotes, please leave it, don't delete it.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 20:23
  • 10
    There's definitely no stance at the company level that downvotes are "unwelcoming" or discouraged in any way. What's unwelcoming are snarky comments, which many users post in lieu of downvotes. A silent downvote on problematic content would be far better.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 21:25
  • 31
    Downvoting an answer is usually -1 rep. Sometimes I just let it go... I'm not proud about that either.
    – TGrif
    Commented Jun 20, 2020 at 21:54
  • 12
    there is much to much downvoting already,and not enough upvoting. the peolple should be encouraged to get a silver and gild medal for there favourite tag, but it is quite hard to reach it, when nobody upvotes, only acknowledged thh answer. we should so encourage more upvotes and less downvotes
    – nbk
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 0:27
  • 30
    @nbk Did you see this link posted in the question? "There is almost 8 times more upvotes on Stack Overflow than downvotes." I see a lot of bad questions with upvotes. Some of those are pity-upvotes where users admit in comments they upvoted because "we shouldn't be mean". This needs to stop. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 5:07
  • 19
    No, @nbk, downvotes should not be based on the skill level of the user. That has no relevance whatsoever. Votes are on posts, not on users.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 8:23
  • 5
    Does the SEDE query pickup downvotes on deleted posts? I know the vote timeline in profiles doesn't. I'm asking because I see users in the table who are no strangers to curation, and the ratio for them makes no sense to me. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 8:26
  • 6
    I don't think that's true, @nbk. As you can see from my previous comment, I cast a lot of downvotes, yet I also receive plenty of upvotes. While some users may follow a "tit for tat" sort of rule when it comes to votes, that's something that we strongly discourage, and extreme versions of that "tit for tat" approach are considered voting fraud. However, it stands to reason that answerers would upvote the question, so that in itself is not particularly suspicious. After all, if a question is good enough for you to take the time to compose an answer, why would it not be worth an upvote?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:40
  • 10
    @LearningFast so you trust humans when it comes to asking good questions, but not when it comes to downvotes? Interesting stance
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 5, 2020 at 10:50
  • 5
    @EgorBEremeev here is a proof - content rating is at the core of the website philosophy. It's mentioned in the tour. Also see Why is voting important?, vote up and the vote down privileges, as well as Expected behaviour under Be honest. Voting makes SO what it is - a good place for getting valuable answers. Downvotes are for content rating, ergo they are part of the core philosophy of SO.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 14:26

73 Answers 73

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Do we have any ideas about what we could do or change to encourage people to spend a little bit more of their votes on downvoting posts?

This is always something what is hard to achieve. Get people to do something explicitly. Anyone has their own opinion and someone's signify explicit intolerance or disagreement about something with don't do something.

One of the only attractions to encourage somebody to do something in particular is:

"If you give me this, you will get that."

In fact, one downvote is lowering your reputation, so it is more like:

"If you give me this, I'll take that too."

There is an unbalance, obviously and the desired effect of the person who asked will high-probably not be achieved.

Even for myself, I would ask:

"Why should I do that if lose X when doing so?"

So in truth, It is not beneficial for someone her-/himself to downvote. That's the point.


One quite obvious solution is to give someone something back or at least doesn't take something from them if they don't do.

In such a community like this, that seems to could be only accomplished by providing more additional collectives/bonuses (f.e. badges or privileges) and/or omit the reputation loss when downvoting.

Other ways seem for me not successful on to how really encourage somebody to use the voting features.

The same should be for upvoting. Give the people more bonuses and a decent part of them will use these features more.

Easy as that.

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Just my two cents as a user with some rep that rarely downvotes (2920 up vs 43 down currently). For me, it's not about receiving a penalty for downvoting, but about damaging the rep of another user. I only downvote in really bad posts, and even then sometimes I just vote close or flag. I think the reason is simple, if you can give another user some rep by doing an action that is free for you, why wouldn't you do it? Okay, maybe if it's a bad post you shouldn't encourage that, but there is a difference between not upvoting and "punishing" the user with a downvote - because that is kind of how it feels for me. I frequently have the doubt that maybe I will downvote it and then the user will edit and improve the post and then the downvote will be undeserved, but I don't want to be responsible for that (note the opposite would be very rare, a good post becoming a bad post after editing). And in general I don't feel very comfortable with that idea of punishing for a bad post. I know it's not really about that, but about keeping the site clean and the content relevant. But the moment you have the rep game, and the privileges and so on it becomes like that to an extent.

I do agree that there should be more downvotes in many cases, I keep seeing a lot of posts that are just not really good, maybe not to the point where they should be closed or deleted, but just not good. I'm not sure what would be the best solution in general but, for me personally, one idea that could be worth trying is this: remove downvote penalty for the poster (and voter) but only add reputation for the total positive score of each post. So, if you get 3 upvotes and 2 downvotes, instead of 3 * 10 - 2 * 2 = 26 you get max(3 - 2, 0) * 10 = 10. If you only have two downvotes, you get max(0 - 2, 0) * 10 = 0. This way:

  • You don't feel you are "subtracting" rep points from the poster, just making them "earn fewer points", so the downvote would be more about curation than punishing.
  • Low rep users will not see their rep damaged by a bad post, and hopefully not get very discouraged, but they will not get points if they get 1 upvote and 4 downvotes.
  • Effectively, downvotes will have a cost of 10 points for the poster (as many people claim should be) in all but bad posts. I think this is fair in the sense that, when you are better at posting content, and probably more seasoned, then you are in the "hard" or "real" rep game, and bad content has a more significant consequence.

Of course, users who don't care about rep at all will never bother with any of it either way, whether downvotes are -2 or -200 points. There are other interesting proposals in the other answers. I think it is logical that an upvote does not require an explanation, it just means "this is good", which rarely requires a comment why that is, but a downvote most likely has a specific reason to it (although sometimes it should be pretty obvious), and an explanation may help the user improve the post. I wouldn't require a comment with a downvote, but maybe could be encouraged. But honestly I don't think that really addresses the question posted here, which is about getting people to downvote more.

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    If the user's who post mediocre or bad answer get downvotes it should motivate them to write better answers in the future. Most do not care about the reputation however. You should not care about it either. They are meaningless points and people will not be hungry just because you subtracted two fake points from them. Besides this is called reputation. Users' reputation should tell us if they post useful content or trash.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:31
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    @Dharman I understand your point, but just stating that people "should" or "should not" care about something does not make it so. Also, what you say is a bit contradicting, I think. On the one hand, rep points give you privileges, so they are not really "meaningless". On the other hand, as you said, "this is called reputation" and "should tell us" something about the user and their content. Most people would agree "reputation" like this is not meaningless. Everyone wants to have a good rep, and for some (myself included) rep is a significant part of the motivation to post (answers mostly).
    – javidcf
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:43
  • 2
    I meant in gives you nothing in real life. Reputation is a total of all your contributions. If people only give you upvotes and never downvotes we don't know if you are truly are posting good information. You also don't have the motivation to learn from this. I like your idea, but I disagree that we are punishing users with our downvotes. Users are punishing themselves by posting low-quality posts. Our job is only to rate the posts. If you like it then upvote, if you don't like it then downvote. The rep gain/loss is not the goal, it's side-effect.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:52
  • I don't even think about the user when I vote on content. I don't look at their name, I don't look at their current rep score, I don't acknowledge if they have the "new user" tag on their post. I read the post and consider whether the post is good/bad/editable and then vote/flag/edit accordingly. The user's rep comes from the accumulation of votes on their own content. We are encouraged to vote on content, not on users.
    – zero298
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:20
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    @Dharman, could you back up your replies with data? "If the user's who post mediocre or bad answer get downvotes it should motivate them to write better answers in the future." Okay, why? "Most do not care about the reputation however." MOST? How do you know that? Did you conduct a survey? This is not an easy thing to determine. "You should not care about it either. They are meaningless points and people will not be hungry just because you subtracted two fake points from them." Are you sure? Why?
    – Rethunk
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 21:15
  • 1
    I can support the idea to change the reputation calculation based on the net positive score. It feels (to me) like it more closely correlates the users' reputation scores with the trustworthiness of their information. And it removes the incentive to leave bad content up (1 upvote plus 4 downvotes stilles leaves the author with a net reputation gain). If it also helps users lift their hesitation to downvote poor content, I'm all for it. Commented Jun 26, 2020 at 23:22
  • As a new user I am grateful for this post explaining downvote importance.
    – G. N. MS
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 2:56
3

Allow people to donate reputation to delete bad answers


enter image description here


How would this work?

In addition to a downvote you can offer some of your reputation to show how bad you think an answer is. This should hopefully highlight particularly bad answers.

What happens to the poster?

The poster would get the usual -2 rep loss - 5% of your own rep loss.

Example: I offer 200 to delete an answer, the poster gets -12 rep loss.

Perhaps there should be a cap on how much one can donate.

What happens when the answer gets deleted?

You are considered for a new set of badges:

  • Patron - Donated rep resulting in the deletion of 5 answers.
  • Advocate - Donated rep resulting in the deletion of 10 answers.
  • Philanthropist - Donated rep resulting in the deletion of 25 answers.
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    Well..... it's certainly a novel idea Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:13
  • I don't understand .. you will offer your Rep but you will get it back when the answer is deleted? Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:18
  • 2
    @TemaniAfif Yep similar to the -1 when you cast a downvote and get back when the answer is deleted. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:22
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    so how it's different from what we have actually? offering X and getting back X is the same whataver the X is Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:24
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    Quite exploitable.Will moderators be able to review such quickly deleted questions and what actions can be made for users if they overuse it? Would love to see slash in rep and long ban. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:27
  • @TemaniAfif It is if you chose to just see that. I think my post is a bit more elaborate though. Anything you think I should clarify? Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:29
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    I don't understand why I should get back my Rep if I am offering it to delete bad content. With my 138K I can easily use 10K to delete your answer and you will be obliged to delete it because it will hurt your Reputation then I get back my 10K. I can easily delete any kind of answer I want since at the end I will get back the Rep and I am sure I will always do because the OP will be losing a lot and will always delete his answer Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:33
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    @TemaniAfif Fair point. I'll remove that bit. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:35
  • I am a bit confused why there is so much emphasis on deleting answers. Downvoting is definitely useful and necessary, but is it necessary to remove such answers (unless it is a clear NAA or VLQ)? Especially when it comes to other Stack Exchange sites where the answers are more subjective, it would be helpful to have keep differing opinions. And on all sites including Stack Overflow, won't examples of "bad solutions" and "what not to do", indicated by their negative score, also add value?
    – GoodDeeds
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 6:43
  • 1
    @GoodDeeds SO is not about opitnions. Sometimes you have non-working answers or answers giving very badsolutions (Ex: solving a simple CSS solution using jQuery) and let's not forget the repeated and trivial answers to trivial duplicate questions. We don't need to have the same answer repeated a million time, we need one canonical answer dealing with the issue. That's why deleing answers is very important. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:44
  • @TemaniAfif I agree with you on duplicate and gibberish (VLQ/NAA) answers, and those should certainly be deleted. But apart from that wouldn't votes be a better tool to judge technical merit? By using deletion, it is possible for a small set of users (who need not even be active in that tag if I understand correctly) to decide if an answer is bad, rather than letting votes from the broader community judge its merits. There may be several ways to solve a given problem, and votes can show which ones are great and which ones are very bad.
    – GoodDeeds
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:02
  • @GoodDeeds delete is also a way to judge an answer. 3 users are needed to delete an answer and you can only cast a delete vote on answers having less than -3. If 3 differents users decide to delete an answer then probably it doesn't deserve to be kept as the solution is completely wrong or have no merit to stay around. By the way (based on my experience) the deletion of answer is very rare and is not done so much. In 99% of cases the deletion came from the OP because of the negative votes and this is what we actually want. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:25
  • @GoodDeeds This is most likely another bad idea of mine anyway. What I like about this is that it offers people a way to give back to the community. They recognised your contributions with rep and now you have an opportunity to do something positive with your fake internet points ;) Definitely not to be implement as is, but maybe a step in the right direction? Who knows?! Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:57
  • Do we have a problem with answers that have a negative score? There are a few of them hanging around, but they usually don't cause many issues and it usually isn't a big issue to delete them. High rep users can already directly vote to delete answers with negative scores. We might have a bigger issue with 0-score answers, but the issue there is that no-one has voted on them, which this won't address.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 13:08
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    I can't really support features that start to treat reputation points very similar to money. This effectively makes it possible for "the rich" to pay to have things removed that they don't like. That'll stir up the toxicity discussion.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:07
2

TLDR; nothing has to be done. It's fine as it is now.

Do we have any ideas about what we could do or change to encourage people to spend a little bit more of their votes on downvoting posts?

I didn't understand why exactly it is a problem. What problem are you trying to solve by encouraging downvotes?

Offtopic questions get downvoted enough. Wrong answers - too. Everything seems fine to me.

Are you talking about old answers which become invalid?

There is almost 8 times more upvotes on Stack Overflow than downvotes.

So what? The sum shouldn't be zero.

Personally if there is an offtopic question, I am trying to close it first. If it's worse than just that (where OP is in hurry or even worse - demands quick answers) then you can be sure it will get my downvote.

I rarely cast downvote on question if it alreay has few downvotes. Why? Simply, I don't see a point in downvoting it more. Sometimes I cast downvote on a question with -10 or even -20 downvotes, if it's that bad.

Are there rules to always downvote? Nope. It's subjective. What you think is bad for someone else may looks not so bad. Unless we all think the same and then downvotes are rising.

Without our downvotes, users might never know that their 0 scored answer was not useful

That's the point. Usually any answer what attempt to answer even with what looks very obvious and easy to you could be useful to someone with much less experience. Only wrong answers deserve downvotes to indicate that to future reasons.

Once you get some big amount of reputation you stop thinking about not loosing reputation on bad answers. So removing -1 for downvoting answers is not really needed.

Do you want beginners (those who are new to site) downvote more? Really? For seasoned users it's not a problem to loose that bit. I often find old question where I just downvote several answers for varios reasons.

So again, what exactly problem you want to solve by removing -1 reputation penalty for downvoting answers?

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    Offtopic questions get downvoted enough: In high volume tags, maybe. In lower traffic tags not so much. In my tags, I often enough find answers which are more than a month old, are totally wrong, have a comment stating that they are totally wrong but have a net score of 0.
    – BDL
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 9:55
  • @BDL, I was not aware about low traffic tags. Shouldn't the question be edited to indicate that fact or are there more problems with downvotes?
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:01
  • I see there is a comment stating another problem with upvotes. And while it may be relevant, to me it's not clear why downvotes are the problem at all. 5:1 upvotes shows people are agree "there is a problem", but which problem exactly???
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:15
  • The issue, as I see it, is bias. The incentive for upvoting and downvoting is different, yet there is no visual cue to convey that. Indeed, the site's visual layout does everything to hide that. It displays a sum of votes, as if they came at the same cost to the voter, and even when you can see the split score, the numbers are displayed using the same font, font size, font weight, color. That paints a skewed picture of the real value of a contribution. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 10:55
  • 1
    @Sinatr One problem in the Java tag, e.g., are bad and/or off-topic questions getting upvoted. On questions from new users this happens often after the post getting an initial downvote, sometimes accompanied by a comment scolding the downvoter because we should be "nice to new users". Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:00
  • @ModusTollens, I am not a big fan of welcome initiative (I simply stay the same, trying to be objective and neutral, talking to a colleague, without adding that stinky "welcome to SO" in comments to new contributors). But isn't it the problem with upvotes? Of course you could try to solve it with downvotes, but it's just wrong.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:06
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    @IInspectable, I didn't understand what is the problem. Upvotes gives more rep, but score is sum. How is that matter? To who? If I am looking for the answer, then I have absolutely zero problem with current system. So why more downvotes? Why biasing?
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:08
  • What's the cost of an upvote to a voter? What's the cost of a downvote to a voter? Are those the same? If not you should understand, why the scores are biased (and towards which end of the scale). Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:13
  • 1
    @IInspectable, as I said I don't have problems to find answers. The system just works.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:15
  • I don't have problems finding answers either. Finding answers isn't the scoring system's job, though. The scoring system's job is to differentiate between quality content, and the rest. I frequently see it fail at that, presumably due to a strong bias towards upvotes. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 11:23
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    @Sinatr I don't want to "solve it with downvotes". I don't want to downvote posts just because they got an undeserved upvote. What I want instead is for more users to grasp the value of and reason for downvotes. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:00
2

One way to encourage people to cast more downvotes would be to make downvotes not bad for the downvoted party. The people who like downvoting will probably continue to downvote anyway and the people who dislike downvoting because of its effects on the other party will be more inclined to do so.

If a downvote didn't affect the user receiving its reputation at all or if a downvote was worth a modest positive amount like +1, but did make the question less visible to others, then I think users would be more inclined to graciously accept downvotes as constructive-but-nonspecific negative feedback from the community.

I think this would reinforce the idea that downvotes are not personal.

People's natural inclination is to treat all criticism as personal, and counteracting this inclination requires the consequences of the criticism to be clearly isolated to one particular issue.

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    If someone's answers get 50 upvotes but 1000 downvotes, do they really need to gain 500 rep for that? That's as much rep as someone who got 50 upvotes and 0 downvotes. One idea would be to place a minimum bound of zero rep on posts.
    – Flimm
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 10:34
  • 1
    @Flimm: Can you write out your calculation? 50*10 - 1000*2 = -1500 (a reputation points loss) Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 10:50
  • The idea of making a downvote actually give the user rep is an interesting one. Obviously it would be super easy to abuse or encourage wrong behavior, but the idea of looking into a way to give the user something positive while still curating the content I think is worth exploring. It's kind of like giving a kid a lollipop when they're about to get a shot -- we can tell people all day that downvotes are helpful and not personal and so forth, but to some people that will be the same as telling a kid a shot is helpful and necessary, they still won't appreciate it. Something sweet helps.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 11:19
  • @PeterMortensen the answer suggested that downvotes should cost whoever got downvoted nothing. So the calculation would be: 50 * 10 - 1000 * 0 = 500
    – Flimm
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 15:48
  • @Flimm In your example, the user's reputation change would be +50 * 10 + 1000 * 0 or +50 * 10 + 1000 * 1 depending on whether receiving a downvote is worth nothing or a modest positive amount. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 16:34
  • Wow. When I suggested positive rep on a downvote, I got hammered. meta.stackoverflow.com/a/373455/315052
    – jxh
    Commented Jun 23, 2021 at 8:43
1

If you really want people to increase the downvote/upvote ratio, make it mandatory. I am one of those who cast more upvotes, probably because I find downvotes pretty harsh.

You could start nagging users who have cast, say, 5 times as many upvotes than downvotes, and let them not upvote any longer if the ratio is, say, 10. Judging from my own motivation I think I would cast the occasional downvote just in order to be able to upvote. Even the nagging could help: I payed more attention to question after I was nagged.

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    Probably forcing them to vote is going to cause random downvotes. However, nagging them to consider downvoting too, could help.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 22:15
0

In short... Effort

Let me preface this by saying I think the ratio should always skew toward positive in the long term. The goal of closing questions with downvotes for editing is generally to rework/improve the question. So hopefully some downvotes trend into upvotes.

That said, I think the issue here is effort required. Look at how we use upvotes; we're basically saying "Everything is great, no notes." So that's it, you're done click the button for the digital equivalent of a thumbs up.

However with downvotes we suddenly heap on the responsibility. When you downvote there's the expectation that you address why you chose to downvote (typically in comments) and so the very usage of a downvote implies a bit more paper work on your part.

I've seen some other answers hint at sort of canned options for downvoting, and I think that might help. Perhaps downvoting isn't just one bucket of negative votes? Maybe you cast a -1 in certain areas? So if I see a good question and the only thing it's missing is code samples. I can hit the downvote button and put my -1 directly into one of the categories we expect; presumably this would be based on what we look for in a good question. In effect this moves downvotes from a single number with no context to several numbers that define a context... which we can total together for easy display? Sort of like the difference in GPA and a report card. GPA is the overall, but each subject has its own grade.

-1

Well, my first thought on this would be to leave the -1 Rep for downvoting, but when the question or anwser actually gets closed/deleted, then just give like +2 Rep to the downvoter, because it seems like the downvote must have been reasonable in this case.

Edit: As VLAZ mentioned, the +2-Approach would most likely attract gamblers, which seems true. Another approach, as already mentioned in the comments, would be to just give +1 Rep instead, so that it evens out at +-0. This would certainly encourage people, and especially low-rep people, to downvote, as they are less likely to suffer a reputation-loss, as long as they downvote reasonably.

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    Seems a bit like gambling. You wager your rep to potentially gain more rep. My issue here is that it removes incentive from removing downvotes. Indeed, it encourages them too much. Example scenario: an answer is wrong and attracts, say, 2 downvotes -> the answer gets corrected. The original downvoters are better off leaving the downvotes there just in case. And for other users it would be profitable to downvote even more. With a score of -10 or less, there is pressured into deleting the post and all downvoters win. For a now correct answer. I can see flocking to negative scores.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:13
  • @VLAZ Well, that sure is right I guess. Well, to remove the gambling-part, maybe just give a +1 Rep then, so that it evens out at +-0 on a reasonable downvote. This way it wouldnt encourage gambling for gain, but still make it more reasonable to downvote if you feel like it should be done. This would certainly encourage a lot of people, since they are less likely to suffer from it, especially low-rep people for whom it actually matters. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:29
  • 3
    This has already been suggested in Temani Afif’s answer. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 7:48
-1

Maybe don't

Downvotes are a strong signal both to future readers and the author of the post that something is wrong and the experts on this site deem the post to be of little value for future readers.

OTOH, they say absolutely nothing about why someone considered the post to be of little value. A downvote says "this sucks". They tell the poster "we don't like your post but we can't be bothered to say why." Which is not much different than "go away".

Many new users get very offended by a single downvote on their question, yet they have completely no objection for the upvotes. Why is that? Why so many users demand that the downvotes be accompanied by an explanatory comment yet nobody demands an explanation for the upvotes?

I've been on Stack Overflow since it was in beta. I'm not a new user. I still get offended by someone downvoting my question with no explanation.

I understand that you have to curate the site, but having received some mystifying downvotes, I'm not sure I want to incentivize people to be quicker to throw stones.

Maybe you could encourage upvotes instead? If a lot of people look at something and fail to upvote it, maybe that's an implicit indicator that it's not very good.

14
  • 7
    Encourage upvotes? Please don't. People are already more disposed towards upvoting just to be nice. I've seen some terrible, crash inducing, code only answers upvoted. It makes curation a nightmare. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 19:17
  • 3
    The downvote says quite a bit more than "this sucks"; it says the post is not clear or not useful (or a question did not show research effort). If all it says is "this sucks", then the upvote only says "this rocks" so why do we need any more of that? Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 19:17
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey I just posted a Q&A at stackoverflow.com/questions/62540506/…, solely to help future readers, having found the solution myself. It's clear: I explain in great detail the problem and the solution. It's useful: prior to my posting it, there was nothing on Google matching the message shown in the network tab "(inspector override)", and it took me several hours to figure out. And it's been down voted without explanation. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 19:20
  • 2
    So you got one random downvote on a self-answered question? You have to know that some people just don't get that those are encouraged on SO: How do I ask and self-answer a correct, high quality Q&A pair without attracting downvotes? Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 19:29
  • 1
    @Heretic Monkey it may be that someone downvotes because they don't like self answered questions. If that was the case then Nathan can't do anything to change the question or answer to satisfy this downvote. However because there is no comment, he doesn't know that is the reason and he breaks his head over what is the downvoters problem with the question. That doesn't help anyone then, except maybe the downvoters own ego fighting self answered questions.
    – findusl
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 20:45
  • 1
    Just because the topic was important to you does not mean others must also like it. If there are enough people who like your question and think that this is an interesting fresh problem they will eventually upvote it. I have also posted self-answered Q&As and it can happen that the question has score less than 0 but the answer has more than 0. These are just people's opinions what they like and do not like. It needs no more explanation. If you want people's feedback you can always ask for it.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 21:38
  • 2
    For transparency, I've deleted several comments here that complain about the lack of comments to go along with downvotes, and other comments that praise users who left comments to go along with their downvotes. All of these are inappropriate and based on a flawed premise. Comments should never accompany votes. Downvotes are never expected to leave a comment. They're two completely different actions. If you have constructive feedback, then you can leave a comment. If you think the answer is wrong, unclear, or otherwise not useful, then you can downvote.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 23:44
  • 3
    They might go together, or they might not. But posters have no right to demand that downvoters leave comments, nor to complain when they don't, because that's simply not how it's supposed to work. Comments lambasting 'downvoters' for not leaving comments are straight-up inappropriate. Do not leave any more, either here or on the main site.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 23:45
  • @HereticMonkeyit's more likely looking at the close flag that the vote is related to the fact that people believe the question doesn't belong on Stack Overflow.
    – user692942
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 11:25
  • I do think "don't" is a pretty viable answer here. But "encourage upvotes" is not a great idea. The issue is that ill-informed people can drive up an easy-to-implement but really bad, even dangerous answer. Downvotes provide an important way for experts to express consensus that an answer has issues without having to post a bunch of redundant comments. Encouraging upvotes would make that (even) more difficult.
    – senderle
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 20:18
  • 1
    @CodyGray as a number of answers here have asserted, there are a lot of people who dislike downvoting without providing feedback. So maybe that's how its supposed to work in some theory, but the premise of this question is that it isn't working, so I find your logic somewhat circular... Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 1:22
  • 2
    @UuDdLrLrSs The premise of this question is that we need to find some way to encourage more downvoting. Attacking downvoters in comments and/or insisting upon reasons makes downvotes less likely. Thus, it works against the aims of this question. More importantly, it works against the site rules. The feedback associated with a downvote is visible in the tooltip; hover over the downvote arrow to read it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 1:54
  • @CodyGray if everyone agrees that we must encourage downvotes then it's not an open question anymore and it's very unlikely that a solution would arise from discussions. If the question actual intent is to know "What can we do to encourage downvoting?" then it's very weird because it would mean the OP assumes it's a good system, which is clearly not the case otherwise even this surface question wouldn't arise. I think the title is just a click bait title to the actually more profond question "Downvotes do not work, why? What can we do? Let's talk about this to understand the subject better."
    – cglacet
    Commented Jun 30, 2020 at 9:14
  • @CodyGray But maybe I assume wrong and the question is what it literally says. If that's the case then I feel it's not an interesting question to debate (as it is way too specific).
    – cglacet
    Commented Jun 30, 2020 at 9:18
-2

Replace Downvotes with Hidevotes

Stack Exchange downvotes are psychologically badly designed. From what I believe I understand about incentives in online interaction, the average downvote of a question or answer will always be taken personally by the author. Because even bad ones have been created with at least some (subjective) effort and diligence – after all, the author thought it's worth publishing that. Being ignored is one thing and people can live with it, but any action that actively discredits that effort (i.e. downvotes) will feel like failure.

I agree that criticism is important to grab somebody's attention (and that's how SE wants downvotes used), but it has to come in the right proportions:

The average [praise to criticism] ratio for the highest-performing teams was 5.6 (that is, nearly six positive comments for every negative one). (source)

Users getting too many downvotes at once will feel instead discouraged from ever posting again, and not encouraged to improve and become masters of Q&A over the longer term. So I'd say that the current downvote system is psychologically a bad design choice for a platform that wants to be welcoming for new users because it has no mechanism that can ensure such a healthy praise to criticism ratio for individual users. (I hardly ever downvote because of that.)

Stack Exchange does not need to delete low-quality content, either. Having ones content deleted also does not feel "welcoming". And it does not help Stack Exchange as a system, either. Let's analyze that statement for the two main types of Stack Exchange users: those who eagerly wait for new questions to answer, and those who use a Stack Exchange site as an almost complete knowledge base (and contribute answers to old questions and to own questions after figuring something out, to make it even more complete for the next person coming along).

  • The first group will always have to deal with low-quality content because the content they see is fresh – better downvotes won't help them because that content is unvoted on yet. In return, they get more reputation than people in the second group who only deal with older questions that don't get much attention anyway.

  • For the second group, it does not matter at all if a Stack Exchange site also hosts low-quality questions and answers as long as they don't see that in search (either search engines or the site search with default settings).

Hiding content from search seems preferable. From the above, it seems to me that hiding low-quality content is all that Stack Exchange sites need to be a great knowledge base. A system of hide-votes is also easy to explain in such a way that people don't take it personally: "This question (resp. answer) is hidden from search engines by default. Other users on this site estimate that it is not a re-occurring problem (resp. a generic enough answer), so it did not become part of our canonical Q&A knowledge base."

How are hidevotes different? Hidevotes are not the opposite of "upvotes", so they can be presented as "something about the relation of content and search engines". Users won't care emotionally much about that. Also when placing a hidevote, nearly all consequences would stay invisible, preventing any "unwelcoming" effect: (1) a hidevote would not be shown or notified to the author, (2) it will not result in any reputation impact for author or voter, (3) the current tally of hidevotes will not be shown to anyone anywhere, (4) the only consequence is that the 15% of content with the highest hidevote tallies are automatically removed from search engines, again without notifying the authors. (The note I proposed above would only be visible when authors re-visit their own content.)

11
  • I'm not sure how "hide" votes would be considered any more welcoming.
    – zero298
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:29
  • 3
    @tanius I disagree. When I first started using Stackoverflow, I hated it because all my questions were downvoted. I thought: "What kind of people are those, always downvoting my questions". Now I know, and I encourage downvoting questions and answers that are low quality. This should be a platform for experts and people who want to become it and content should be as such. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:35
  • @zero298 They'd have (nearly) invisible consequences only. I added a section explaining how I imagine it.
    – tanius
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 14:38
  • 1
    "...and authors expect recognition for that. Everything else will feel like failure." Well, we're not in the business of participation prizes. Expending effort doesn't automatically mean you will, nor should, receive praise for it.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 18:43
  • @fbueckert Yes, agreed. Adapted the answer to be more precise in that section now.
    – tanius
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 19:50
  • 1
    If there is no negative feedback for behavior with negative consequences, why would a user stop the behavior? If I post an off-topic question, and it gets 1000 "hidevotes", and one answer (which gets 100 "hidevotes"), I've got my answer, and I don't care if no one else can get the answer through a search engine. My rep is exactly the same as it was before I asked it, so I see that SO is fine with it. The person who answers receives no negative feedback, and might even gain rep from the OP from the acceptance of the answer. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 20:19
  • Eh. I don't think your edit has changed anything. The act of effort does not entail reward. The world doesn't work that way. You need to be able to accept critique, and realize that perhaps your work is lacking. That's a part of life. We do no one any favors by withholding that judgement.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 20:42
  • @fbueckert "We do no one any favors by withholding that judgement." – If the amount of judgement would otherwise be overwhelming and discouraging, it's better to withhold some (which is not equal to giving a reward!). It's human psychology that critique is a force for good only if in the right amount. I had thought that part would be clear with the edit.
    – tanius
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 21:18
  • @tanius, you so accuratly noticed: "those who eagerly wait for new questions to answer". That make everything clear for me - this group of users just saying they need the tools to clean thier incoming flow. Clearly, that is not about quality of site content. Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 22:48
  • @HereticMonkey, if question get answer, and useful answer for author, that means all these 1000+100 downvoters made a huge mistake and just waste thier time. The eager to control others behavior is in full contradiction with Code of Conduct. Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 22:58
  • @EgorBEremeev Please point out the specific language in the Code of Conduct that downvoting violates. Or, stop using the CoC as a shield to allow whatever behavior you want. Stack Overflow was founded precisely to enable the contribution of high quality questions and answers that help more than one person over time. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 11:39
-3

Just a simple thought, remove the direct link between votes and reputation. In my view, the content curation is important enough to give in on some of the community goals of being more welcoming.

A reward from an upvote may be in the form of reputation points, but there's no reason why downvoting needs to result in the loss of reputation points. Let reputation be more of an activity gauge, how much they personally contribute to the knowledge base, let downvotes be a way of curating the content for accuracy.

No reason they need to be linked. I realize you are going to have those who will game the system for reputation, but you pick and choose your battles. Correctness of information is more important.

6
  • 4
    Sounds good but if you post an answer which gets 1 upvote and 100 downvotes, you will not have any reason to delete it, because you are still getting positive +10 points
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:34
  • 2
    "an activity gauge, how much they personally contribute to the knowledge base" - But if they "contribute" a lot of bad content that gets sympathy upvotes, how is that gauge useful for anything? Let alone for giving them moderation tools? Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:36
  • @Dharman the hope is that a good answer will come along which will practically hide the bad content. Again, we would have to shift thinking away from linking reputation directly with content curation
    – ndugger
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:41
  • 3
    Reputation is linked with curation. The more reputation you have the more curation tools are available to you. If nobody teaches you how to differentiate between good and bad content then you will not be experienced enough to use the curation tools. I want my reputation to go down when I receive downvotes. It's the negative feedback that shows me what is useful and what is useless. It's how I learn to improve my posts.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 17:45
  • @Dharman So don't delete points associated with a post when it is deleted. If one person thought your answer was useful, why take that away? There is still the loss of those points if that user gets deleted, although I think this should only be for abuse (e.g. sock puppet accounts solely for the purpose of creating karma like this)
    – Michael
    Commented Jun 27, 2020 at 0:28
  • Maybe there is something unusual with my train of thought, because I've predominantly downvoted the high vote answers here and upvoted the negative ones. @Dharman I think this answer is spot on and for the most part you asked the wrong audience. You should ask your question on psychology.se, rather than posing it to a bunch of "see the world as binary" computer scientists. Most people are saying "abolish the penalty for my negative actions" but that is wrong; actions have consequences in the real world. Downvotes have psychologically negative connotations and you must remove the connotations
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jun 27, 2020 at 6:33
-3

For me, zero votes mean either wrong or not-seen enough answers. And dealing with these kind of answers are time-consuming (mostly I just look at them as fast as possible).

When you want to downvote zero-voted answers, you should process:

  • Am I sure this answer is wrong?
  • It doesn't work for me, but is it really wrong? Maybe it works for others.

So it takes time to process and downvote them.

If you highly encourage people to downvote (for example +5 for downvote), it's dangerous because a lot of people will use it before processing what's going on.

But I think the first step is to remove the -1 score we get when we cast a downvote (I think it's because we should cast a comment to say why it's wrong. But most of the times we do downvotes because the answer doesn't work. So it's stupid to ask for a "it doesn't work" comment every time).

But for the next steps, I'm not sure. It's hard to process and downvote answers. Maybe adding a popup when we hover on downvote button would be a good idea, with these buttons:

It doesn't work for me | hard to read answer | it's totally wrong | I just don't like it

Then we can just say why we don't like this answer, without actually downvoting it (because most of the times we're not sure about down-voting).

And also a notification for the answerer (congaing the username) may be a good idea. So the answerer can try to improve the answer, for example by asking: Don't you use an old version of node? Because my answer is for new Node.js versions. (Though these conversations are annoying, because this may become long and time-consuming.)

2
  • With the idea of buttons for the common downvoting reasons, there was actually a proposal a while back which drew up a similar mock-up for questions.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 11:43
  • @DavyM that's similar, but it has a problem: that way i should cast a downvote, then i should tell the reason, but: 1. mostly i'm not sure about downvote 2. it's time consuming to tell the reason. my suggestion was: saying : "it doesn't work for me | not well explained | ..." without actually downvoting. benefits: 1. this way i shouldn't process if the answer is really wrong or not 2. i doesn't take my time. so like a quick negative feedback about answer.
    – yaya
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 11:57
-4
  1. Make it so that the poster can respond to a downvote, which can trigger the voter to review the post and retrieve their rep by reversing their vote.

    we want to encourage poster to write better content, and its probably better for them to fix it rather than the rest of us.

  2. Create a flag on comments that separates comments or discussion about the OP's technical issue and comments about the style/structure/content of the specific post.

  3. Make downvotes more visible. Either show the totals in the tooltip when you hover or show a count of downvotes in a smaller text next to the vote summary. if we can't see downvotes, what is the point, no one really clicks on the vote total, its an extra click that you can't un-click to return to seeing the total, so your downvote is all but invisible.

  4. Add a bounty for improving an answer. If I find a low quality post that looks like the poster has the knowledge or the content is on the right track, I can add bounty that initially contributes to the downvotes in a bulk fashion, (cost to my rep is equal to the downvotes), if later the post gets deleted, then you get the rep back, however if someone improves that response and I approve, that editor is awarded the bounty and the downvotes removed.

    again, encourage that the content is improved overall, not that we simply delete content that is no longer relevant to us.

As the poster (either question or answer) I genuinely want to know what I can do to improve my post, and I want to be rewarded in some way for actually improving my post. If the voter gets a notification "A post you downvoted has been edited, please re-vote" or review, then I have some hope that my responding to community pressure will be rewarded.

This will incentivise people to downvote, because there is a greater chance that they could get their rep back, especially if over the lifetime of the post my downvote resulted in a post being improved an ultimately being upvoted.

Yes, this might generates more "why downvotes" style comments, but that's not a bad thing, it encourages an interaction within the community that will ultimately result in better curated content.

If comments can be flagged into comments that are discussions about the topic, vs comments that are specifically about the quality of the post, then these targeted messages between the community acting as moderators and the poster, that are about the improvement of the post, can be filtered out of the main feed when the issues raised in the comment are addressed in the post.

This helps over time to remove the many comments that become out of date after changes are made to the post. If the poster of the comment can tick a box to say they are satisfied that their issue has been addressed, thus retrieving their -rep and downvote (they don't have to upvote) then the public default view of comments is now sanitised of the superfluous fluff.

Ultimately a downvote only has an impact on low rated questions, From a simple point of view I see these issues around votes that prevent down-votes:

  • -1 rep, this is a non-trivial cost to low rep users, who make up the majority of SO users, but in general SO is a competition where we are compared on our rep level, and even ranked by week/month/qtr/year on how much that rep level increases so choosing to spend that rep means we have justified the cost to our rep, or we think we will get that rep back (keep reading)

  • Upvotes however are further incentivised at the lower level with badges for prolific up-voting, so those of us achievement hunters will upvote because there is a badge and because we hope others will find our own posts useful and will upvote them. This leads to our swarm mindset of upvote posts that already have lots of votes because we remotely agree with them, which stays with us out of habit once we have achieved the badges.

  • There is little point to down-voting a post that has a higher number of votes, even 10 becomes a barrier that seems too high. A downvote becomes lost, and is practically invisible, this post that was 10, is now 9... which compared to zeros or negatives in the other posts, this is still the answer that everyone else agrees with, so it will keep receiving support from the community. Even if there is no further support from the community it's still going to take 10 other people to agree with me that it's worth the rep to get this post below zero, meaning my contribution has little effect on the system until other people agree.

    • If 10+ people like this post, chances are I'm not going to get my -1 back.
    • Not only am I alone in my downvote, no one can support me because no one knows it might be worth a downvote. SO is all about participating and encouraging the right behaviours and responses, but my measly -1 makes less of a difference as the current vote count increases.

The current pack-mentality around downvotes does actually encourage downvotes, much in the same way that a positive posts will continue to receive upvotes, once a post goes below zero, it gets more negative attention and critical reviews that will likely receive more downvotes, we either agree slightly with the previous downvotes, and vote because we have or are giving support to the community (and are likely to get our rep back) it is only when we strongly disagree with the downvotes that we will upvote the post.

Is there really an issue here?

A positive vote is "I find this useful or clear", which can attract an upvote for being clear, even if I know anything about the subject matter, however I can only really downvote if I understand at least some of the context behind the subject matter, because I can't make a good assessment of the structure of the response if I don't understand it at all, its not fair to downvote simply because I used the wrong query terms and are reading a post that is not relevant to me, or because solutions or versions have evolved and that post is not relevant to me, but may still be easily relevant to other users.

There is also statistical fact that over the lifetime of a post, a post that receives enough negative attention gets deleted or closed, which will no longer receive any posts, other than positive ones.

Couple this with the observation that we wont generally downvote a post that has a positive vote count, meaning only zero or close to zero posts will ever attract downvotes

So there is a ceiling to how many downvotes any post can realistically achieve, conversely there is no limit to the upvotes a post can achieve so it makes sense that overtime, in a properly moderated site, only positive or neutral posts should remain in search responses, meaning that over time we actually expect that there would be an exponential difference between the number of upvotes and the number of downvotes.


I consider myself a representative of the general population, 1.2K up, 33 downvotes. I've only recently been granted the privilege of closing, so really I feel that this question directly targets me and people like me...

I upvote on good questions because "I found it useful" and the same for good answers, I hope that other people will vote my posts up in a similar manner.

I then have an internal hateful wrath-type response to any downvotes I get, because it's hard to attract the positives on specialised or technical tagged content that doesn't get many views, but also because I spend a lot of time on my posts, and I'm angry that even if I improve my post, that downvoter is not likely to come back to review my change, let alone spend the time to recast their vote, so the reality is that because the potential time delay and workflow between a downvote, and a potential improvement edit are so far removed that there is not a lot of point in trying to improve my post once I'm done, there isn't a great deal of benefit to myself or to those who downvoted in the first place, I've spent my time on that issue and moved on.

-4

Downvotes could get more constructive by giving them a category like

  • Not an answer/question
  • Badly formatted
  • Wrong
  • Duplicate

That would make the vote more useful for the poster and thus feel better to give.

Combined with a previous suggestion of notifying voters when a post is edited should also remove part of the bad feeling from giving a downvote.

(High-rep users could opt-out to be able to moderate the site, but for most (?) users there is no way to downvote enough posts for those notifications to become spam.)

Considering the (probable?) ratio between high-rep users and people below say 1k rep where reputation for the next privilege is an issue the cost of downvotes should not be ignored.

8
  • You are confusing closing and flagging with voting.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 16:20
  • 1
    "Not an answer/question" is a flag or a close reason. It often overlaps with downvoting but not necessarily. "Duplicate" is also not a downvote reason by itself. Some dupes are really good can serve as excellent signposts to a canonical. Others are indeed low effort. I often find a duplicate to a question by literally googling the title of that question. That, I consider low effort, especially if the body shows nothing more than a work request.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 16:20
  • 2
    @Dharman actually I'm not confusing them, the flag is for a moderator, the downvote is for the poster/reader. A random downvote does not tell the poster anything, except that someone read my answer for less than a minute and didn't like it. Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 16:26
  • 3
    @VLAZ yes, my example categories are probably bad, but I was trying to illustrate the thought of giving more feedback in the anonymous vote, without having to post a public comment. Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 16:29
  • Which is exactly its purpose. We don't need to confuse others by specifying more reasons for downvotes. You downvote when you found the post not useful. You can post a comment if you think something is not clear. You can vote to close as a duplicate when it has been asked before. You can flag as NAA when the answer is not really an answer. These are all different things.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 16:30
  • 2
    I don't see how this suggestion makes it easier to downvote.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 16:33
  • 4
    @fbueckert It might make people who avoid downvotes because they think they're too mean more likely to use them, since it makes it more explicit that a downvote doesn't mean "You're bad and you should feel bad!"
    – divibisan
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 16:37
  • It also might make people vote less because now they have to do more than they would if they upvoted.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 16:40
-5

I think part of the problem comes from the inability to distinguish between bad faith questions (low effort, clearly homework, etc.) and good faith questions which don’t fit the site (someone who clearly doesn’t know correct terminology or where to start/ too open ended, etc.)

Maybe move the "needs improvement" flag to its own button under downvote and give it some more specific options to why it's not good enough.

I know that I see questions frequently where I don't downvote it because it's not bad faith, but I would definitely tag it "too little info", or "unspecific".

1
  • 4
    You are confusing closure with voting. Votes are your opinion of the topic. Closing is a way for you to tell OP what needs to be improved. Besides, how does this apply to answers?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 16:40
-5

Many new users get very offended by a single downvote on their question, yet they have completely no objection for the upvotes. Why is that? ...

Why is their perception of our voting systems so skewed?

Imagine you were born and raised in a country where showing a middle finger is an extremely rude insult. Then you go to a (fictitious) land where a middle finger signifies that you have dirt on your face, or that your zipper is open, and signals that you need to check yourself in a mirror. You leave your hotel to explore and people start giving you the finger. You are shocked and confused. A random person smiles and tries to hand you a pocket mirror whilst giving you the finger. You might run back to your hotel!

Yes, this traveler should have researched the 'documentation' about this country before visiting. But most people will not do that, or they skim through the guidebook and focus on the restaurants. Stack Overflow simply cannot change that behavior. Do you want to endlessly sigh about and be frustrated by new user behavior, or do you want to influence it?

After a lifetime of using YouTube, Reddit, Facebook, etc., you can't expect users to 1) start reading user registration documentation before posting, and 2) immediately understand the different meaning of a Stack Overflow downvote.

Further, it could be argued that to expect such adoption from new users means that your view is the skewed one.

What if you clicked on three dots or a hamburger, and instead of a menu you got a contact form? What if clicking on a heart didn't turn it into a red "like," but instead morphed it into a skull and crossbones? When you see a thumbs-down, minus sign, or down-arrow, it means negging or dislike. It's a widely-used visual convention which has been employed for years. 99% of the time, clicking on a down-arrow does NOT mean "not useful," it means dislike. So what? Who cares about the expected behavior of an icon/button...

Remember when the MS Windows 10 update dialog on Windows 7 introduced a different behavior for the red "X"? Users were upset and confused. They had been trained for years that a red "X" meant close the dialog and do not apply changes. Now suddenly the red "X" closed the dialog AND agreed to the changes.

Users need to be re-educated on the red X (the down-arrow) or they will be upset and confused. Stack Overflow fails at this because they place this education in the user registration/agreement, etc. -- this will be skimmed or not read at all by a new user.

Do we have any ideas about what we could do or change to encourage people to spend a little bit more of their votes on downvoting posts?

Most users skip the Stack Overflow user agreements/documentation -- think about when you register for a Facebook account or an Amazon account: who actually reads the terms of use, behavior policy, etc.? Most people whip through it -- "blah blah, no sexy posts, no foul language, we may track you, blah blah, now click 'OK'" -- because they presume it is boilerplate.

But Stack Overflow user documentation contain the vital piece of information that voting on Stack Overflow is not like voting on the rest of the web. It gets skipped/skimmed because it is assumed to be just part of the usual boilerplate.

Find a way to put it in the user's face that Stack Overflow downvotes are completely different in meaning than other sites. Some rough ideas to get the brainstorming going:

  • Make them go through a quick training before posting, where they must correctly up/downvote sample posts on a tag of their choosing, or give rep for passing such a training
  • Grey-out certain functions until they pass a short quiz on the documentation about voting, or something equally attention-grabbing (or award avatar hats/caps like the winter caps for passing the quiz)
  • Gamify the documentation on voting -- popups with "one of these things is not like the other"-type comparisons between an Stack Overflow downvote and other sites

TLDR: Stack Overflow must manage the expectations of new users, who have been trained by years of using 'voting' icons/buttons on other websites. Simply railing against new users' perceptions will accomplish nothing since these visual conventions are deeply ingrained -- innovative changes to the registration and voting processes are needed to ensure understanding of voting.

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    Most users SKIP the SO user agreements/docs This is their fault, not SO's. Encouraging laziness is not a good idea in my opinion. And docs are already gamified, you earn a badge when you take the tour. Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 6:53
  • 3
    You can't upvote until you gain some reputation. You can't downvote until you gain some more. We would need to change how we give people the privileges so that they would be better understood.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 10:26
  • 7
    Are downvotes considered "rude" on YouTube, Facebook, Reddit, or any of the other sites you listed? I've never considered them to be such, and I wasn't aware that anyone else did. On YouTube, for example, they just mean "I like this" and "I didn't like this". That's not altogether different from what the vote arrows mean on Stack Overflow. I don't buy the argument for a culture clash.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 10:52
  • 4
    "Remember when the MS Windows 10 update dialog on Windows 7 introduced a different behavior for the red "X"? Yeah, and people were pissed; Microsoft was deliberately altering the functionality for this one scenario. Before, and since, it's always closed the window. That doesn't work as an example because we're not changing the meaning. People are just assuming it means something it actually doesn't.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 4, 2020 at 13:56
  • @CodyGray I don't think I ever said that downvotes were considered rude on other sites?
    – Z Kubota
    Commented Jul 5, 2020 at 19:21
  • @oguzismail Go ahead and completely ignore user behavior, then. Yes there is a badge -- obviously it is not enough to overcome the conventional meaning of a down arrow icon (otherwise we would not be having this discussion)
    – Z Kubota
    Commented Jul 5, 2020 at 19:24
  • @fbueckert SO is not changing the meaning of the down arrow icon, correct -- on this site, a down arrow has never meant dislike. BUT for a new user who has been surfing the web for years and using down arrows everywhere to express dislike, it is a sea change.
    – Z Kubota
    Commented Jul 5, 2020 at 19:27
  • @CodyGray I see where you got that idea. It's only an analogy with the middle finger substituting for a down arrow icon -- as I stated, a middle finger would be rude, and a down arrow means "dislike". I never said that a down arrow is rude. Many other sites use down arrow icons -- SO is the only place (that I can think of) where a down arrow isn't supposed to imply dislike. Do you think that could confuse a new user?
    – Z Kubota
    Commented Jul 5, 2020 at 19:45
  • 1
    The downvote arrow definitely implies "dislike" on Stack Overflow, so that's not different. Yes, I got confused when you related the downvote button to the middle finger.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 6, 2020 at 3:38
  • @CodyGray I don't see the word "dislike" on this page anywhere. stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-down If you are using the down-arrow in the same way as a Facebook thumb, perhaps you are overusing it. -- yes, those words are in the tooltip.
    – Z Kubota
    Commented Jul 7, 2020 at 3:28
  • 1
    Nor do I see the words "unclear", "not interesting", "not useful", "lacks research effort", or any of the other dozens of reasons why someone might downvote a post. That page doesn't provide, and isn't intended to provide, a comprehensive list. Downvotes have meant "dislike" since literally their introduction, just as upvotes have meant "like". It's just that on Stack Overflow and other technical Q&A sites, we generally have a reason that we don't like something: for example, not useful, not clear, no research effort, etc.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2020 at 3:30
  • @CodyGray If I "dislike" a reddit comment, of course I have a reason -- I didn't like the tone, maybe I don't like their username. An SO "like" supposedly has nuance, deeper than social media REACTION buttons. SO retains the same old iconography as social media, then expects NEW users to get the different nuance! >sigh< Four separate buttons labeled "unclear", "not interesting", "not useful", "lacks research effort" would be more objective. "Dislike" is subjective.
    – Z Kubota
    Commented Jul 7, 2020 at 3:49
  • 1
    There are no nuanced differences; that's the entire point of my comment. People regularly downvote things on Reddit because they are unclear, not interesting, not useful, etc. Yes, the expectation of research effort is slightly different, and our quality standards are higher here, but that isn't a property of the voting system. Even on Stack Exchange, all votes are subjective: they represent my opinion about the quality/usefulness/appropriateness of the post.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2020 at 3:50
  • @CodyGray SO's UI utilizes one of the most universally-accepted internet icons for "dislike for any reason you choose" (second perhaps only to the thumbs-down,) but then expects new users to click it strictly when signifying "unclear", "not interesting", "not useful", "lacks research effort", "egregiously sloppy", "no-effort-expended", "clearly and perhaps dangerously incorrect". Only confusion can come from such a dichotomy! smh... Good night and may the force be with you, Cody.
    – Z Kubota
    Commented Jul 7, 2020 at 4:05
  • 2
    No. You keep reiterating a claim that I have denied since my very first comment. The downvote arrow means "dislike for any reason you choose". Users are literally allowed to vote, either up or down, for any reason they choose, as long as they are not committing vote fraud. There's no confusion here; you're just concocting a bunch of arbitrary stipulations on what votes mean that simply aren't there and were never intended to be there. The explanation that downvotes typically mean unclear/uninteresting/lacks research effort/etc. are just that: clarifications. They don't bind the button's usage.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2020 at 4:37
-5

As a normal user, I just won't bother myself to downvote because I have no benefit from it even if I'm right. I would consider downvoting if:

  • Remove the -1 on downvoting
  • Add +2,5 if the post was somewhat closed or deleted.
  • Some badges too
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  • 7
    Isn't giving a signal to future readers a good enough incentive?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Feb 11, 2022 at 12:26
  • I would be in my way doing my work, it is just too much to switch my attention and make a decision if there's no reward.
    – Sadak
    Commented Feb 11, 2022 at 12:28
  • 8
    Curation is generally a thankless work indeed.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 11, 2022 at 12:47
  • @E_net4thecurator not for me, "...To me, Stack Overflow is a tool. I use this tool in my job and I just need to keep it sharp."
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 11, 2022 at 14:32
  • 4
    Sometimes I stumble back on posts that I had referred to in the past and my downvotes/upvotes help me remember which answer worked for me. Sometimes the 'future reader' that @Dharman mentioned in their comment could be you yourself! Isn't that a good enough reason to downvote, considering that it will only take a fraction of a second now but could save you hours of re-reading ;)
    – Sabito
    Commented Feb 11, 2022 at 19:04
  • I kinda like these - though perhaps not all at once. Downvoting seems to have a stigma attached that is just bad, and the rep system currently sends the same message. Having some effect that shows downvotes are encouraged, not just tolerated, could be useful - even if it might not be significant for the people who downvote. Commented Feb 12, 2022 at 6:14
  • Being 100% extrinsically motivated is one state of being. It is probably the reason the gamification on Stack Overflow on the whole works so well. But do consider the benefits of intrinsic motivation. Commented Feb 12, 2022 at 16:05
  • What do you mean by "Remove the -1 on downvoting"? That downvoting an answer should not cost one reputation point (unlike questions)? Or downvotes should not be shown or count? Or something else? Commented Feb 12, 2022 at 16:08
  • @PeterMortensen yes, it should not cost anything
    – Sadak
    Commented Feb 12, 2022 at 16:15
-6

This question contains multiple questions. This makes it hard to give a complete answer, which is why such questions are usually closed as too broad and downvoted. I'm surprised this one is not. So I will attempt to answer some of your questions.

Many new users get very offended by a single downvote on their question, yet they have completely no objection for the upvotes. Why is that? Why so many users demand that the downvotes be accompanied by an explanatory comment yet nobody demands an explanation for the upvotes?

I will first focus on downvotes on questions. I think you are confusing close votes and downvotes. Unless questions are beyond hope and should be closed, downvotes are a signal to the writer that he should improve his question. In order to do this, the writer usually needs input on what the problem is with the question. However he does not need input for an upvote, as it does not require him to change anything.

Now to answers. Here I think downvotes without explanation are appropriate, if the answers in your opinion is wrong. However if the downvote is given to a correct answer, because you want the answer to contain more information/sources or something, then you should tell the writer. Otherwise this correct answer that could be very useful will be on the bottom of all answers and grayed out and that does not help anyone.

Do people really value the fake Internet points so much or is it about acceptance by strangers? Why is their perception of our voting systems so skewed?

I and probably many other people value downvotes and upvotes so much, because they influence how many people will see their text. If I ask a question then I hope for an answer. Early downvotes without explanation will lead to less people seeing my question and therefore I have a lower chance of getting an answer. For answers I personally care less about downvotes. However I can feel some effect, if I posted an answer I put effort into finding the information or at least writing the text like this one. If I get downvotes that means that it is less likely that people will see it and the effort was less worth it. Again, if the answer is wrong then I totally think downvotes are appropriate.

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  • 2
    Nope. I answered many questions after downvoting and editing them. Strange move, but I expressed an opinion that I think the question is a poor question, but it is answerable and the answers can help others in future. If I wanted OP to improve the question I would vote to close.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 21:28
  • It is kind of the point that if we downvote we are sending signal for future readers that it is not worth reading in our opinion. -1 or -2 on a question is not the end of the world, because people still open such questions. At least I do. What makes me stay away from is the title and tags. If you can't write a good title and the question is at zero it is likely you will not catch my attention.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 21:31
  • 1
    Meta works a little differently. Here questions can ask for opinions and sometimes be quite broad. However, I asked a simple question "Do we have any ideas about what we could do or change to encourage people to spend a little bit more of their votes on downvoting posts?" Sub-questions were mostly to spark a discussion.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 21:33
  • 1
    @Dharman That is confusing. So you downvote a question because it is poor, but you do not want him to improve it? Why? And you mark for future readers that it is not worth reading in your opinion, yet you give an answer because it may help others in the future? How can it be not worth reading but at the same time helpful?
    – findusl
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 22:32
  • 4
    The downvotes aren't for the poster, @findusl. They're for everyone else that comes after the poster, so they know it's not a good question. That's why voting doesn't require accompanying comments for improvement.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 22:33
  • 1
    You should evaluate the usefulness of each post in separation. Bad question does not mean answers are bad. I don't think there is more room for improvement with the question and it is answerable as is.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 22:34
  • 1
    @fbueckert then why would you not close it? For me a question is either useful in future or it is not. If it is not, then it should be closed, if it is then it should not but then the downvotes don't make sense either. I seem to miss something here. Do you have an example of a question that you think should not be closed, is not good and cannot be improved?
    – findusl
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 22:37
  • 1
    A bad question doesn't automatically mean an off-topic question. They're two different actions that can sometimes overlap, but don't have to. Up/down voting is for post utility. Close voting is for questions that meet one of the close criteria. Quite often there are questions that nominally meet the criteria for being on-topic, but are so poorly written or just plain bad that they need downvoting. You don't close a question because it's bad. That's what downvoting is for.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 22:40
  • 3
    No. Downvotes are not to help the poster improve. Never have been, and never will be. We are not a help desk. People definitely want help, and often get it, but that's a byproduct of how Q&A works; we build the repository through people asking for help, but make no mistake, that help is, and always will be, secondary to our primary mission.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 22:48
  • 3
    That's a misunderstanding of their purpose. They don't request anything. They provide a judgement of the post's utility.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 22:50
  • 2
    No, close votes don't fill the same task. They prevent answers to questions. They don't judge utility. They are two orthogonal concepts that work in tandem, but for different purposes. Often questions are closed because they will attract bad answers until the poster has a chance to improve it, and then it can be reopened.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 22:54
  • 2
    Downvotes don't mean improvements can be made to the post. They mean the voter found the post not useful. The post itself may or may not be able to be improved, but that's irrelevant to the purposes of voting. It's there so people in the future know that the post has problems, not that the problems can be fixed. The primary reason people complain about downvotes is because they don't understand what they're for. There are such things as bad questions, unable to be improved; that's why the question ban exists.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 23:05
  • 1
    If downvotes were not originally for the poster, then as a community we have certainly adopted them for this purpose. I find the close vote process a bit obnoxious for feedback to the poster because posts are generally closed quicker than OP can respond and after a change they are very rarely re-opened. Downvote as feedback fits the timeline better for the average duration that it takes OP to respond and the mechanism allows for recast after an edit, all that is missing is a notification that an edit occurred, would we like to review the edit and recast our vote. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 23:40
  • 1
    @ChrisSchaller Care to point out, where, exactly, the community has adopted that sentiment?
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 3:08
  • 1
    @fbueckert I'm one user who has always assumed this to be the case, but a simple review of the posts on this question shows a general divide in sentiment that other users have either come to this conclusion, or they share yours. It probably originates from the triage queue, where we cannot vote to close yet, but we are encouraged to downvote if a post needs improvement, upvote if we think it is a good post. The wording has changed slightly over the years, but that's our first exposure to the mechanism in terms of users performing moderation, perhaps that's a good place affect change? Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 3:21
-7

TL;DR I think downvotes should be renamed and completely reworked in their logic. The current name and design will necessarily imply negative feelings and will therefore never be used as extensively as it could (emotions > pragmatism).


After reading answers here I can say one thing: Even people on meta don't agree on what downvotes on questions are made for. We should work on that first. Otherwise every discussion is pointless.

Lack of decision implies lack of clarity

People hanging out here are far more informed than the average Stack Overflow user and still it doesn't seem like a consensus is emerging. Therefore it's very unlikely that there would be a consensus in the broader community of active Stack Overflow users (and even less likely over all Stack Overflow users).

Which means: people have no clue about what is expected from them.

The question is even broader than that and I really feel like the problem is related to poor communication on the expected behaviour. I think the rules cover too many subjects and also are too specific. If the site's macroscopic intents were clear, then only people who haven't read the rules would disagree on the general intents of Stack Overflow. But in reality even meta-users still argue on what Stack Overflow is (not what it should be because that would be totally fine). Someone need to make a decision. Consensus is only good when it can be reached in a reasonable amount of time. And decisions should be communicated widely and clearly, Stack Overflow lacks authority and "positioning" (at least that's what I perceive as a simple user).

Where does this problem come from?

I would say from the root of the problem is in the Help center page. It's cool if you search for an answer, but most people will never ask themselves how they should use Stack Overflow. And if they do, they want a short, simple answer that covers all subjects at once. Not a very detailed description of all possible sub-cases.

How can we communicate Stack Overflow intents better?

That's the real question here I think. For example, to encourage downvotes, the first thing needed is to define what a vote is (what it's made for and what's its intent). It's not even worth arguing before this is clear.

This is a very hard question to answer and there is no perfect solution for this. But there is one thing I think could help. I think the tour page should start with a vision, a short presentation of Stack Overflow's intents (similarly to what have been done in the code of conduct, but for how to use the tool, not how to behave like a human being).

I know many people won't ever go to this page, but the simple fact that it exists could be a tool for us to agree on something simple enough that it can be read and approved quickly. It would also be a communication tool. If someone clearly is off-topic, you could send them to this page so they have a rough idea of the philosophy in a few seconds. I feel like this is something Python managed to do quite well with The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters (the idea isn't quite new, but it has proven to work well in practice). It doesn't necessarily define precise actions to take, but it draws a clear philosophical line, starting from that people have their own interpretation, but at least they all move in the same direction, each acting in the best possible way to fit to the "Zen".

We could use some of the guiding principles from this to describe Stack Overflow's intents. In particular I think these apply in this case:

Explicit is better than implicit.
Simple is better than complex.
Flat is better than nested.
Readability counts.
Errors should never pass silently.

What about downvotes!?

I won't talk about communication too much, because that's really not my strong suit.

On the other hand, I'll point out problems and provide some leads to possible answers. First, I don't know what downvotes on questions are intended for so I will only focus on downvotes for answers (questions should be closed or edited. I don't see a middle-ground having any sense here). For answers it's a bit clearer because answers can be wrong (while questions can't). But yet my opinion is that downvotes on answers are not made to say "this answer is wrong" (I'll come back to this).

I would suggest to rename answers' downvotes to not ideal or something similar conveying the same idea (for example, as Raymond Hettinger loves to say: There must be a better way). Let me explain why. There are several kinds of "bad answers" and each of them already have a corresponding action:

  • Faulty/wrong (or worse) answers should be flagged (and later deleted).
  • Inaccurate/outdated/unclear answers should be edited to add the missing details.
  • Non-exhaustive answers should be quoted in the answer you are about to write to cover the missing parts.
  • You feel like the answer is bad, but you are unsure then comments are very useful. Same if there is some ambiguity/subjectivity in the answer.

The only thing that remains are answers that are not ideal, pieces of code that work, but they are not very performant/elegant or are not representative of how people usually write it … You get the idea. These answers aren't really bad; they are just not the best you could imagine. The only thing we want for them is to not appear first, thus the "downvote". The downvote says "ok, this answer isn't bad, but there is a better way" (at least that's how I use it).

Words are very important and when you "downvote" an answer it's necessarily negatively perceived by the other. I mean it has "down" in it. How could it be positive or even neutral? The same goes with the icon associated to it, a down arrow. That's maybe one of the worst possible images you could have in your head. (Changing the name of answers' downvote would inevitably come with rethinking the icon.) We are empathetic creatures, and if we don't like "down-stuff" we don't use "down-stuff" on others. That's why downvotes are so rarely used.

Rewarding someone will not turn him/her into a "monster", so that's probably not a viable solution either. Getting -1 rep is nothing compared to the risk of causing pain. Most people probably don't care about the -1, unless maybe people that don't tend to ask/answer questions. If you hate receiving downvotes, you won't give downvote. It is as simple as that. (I'm sure we could observe a correlation between the two.)

Going back to the renaming idea, I think finding the right name/design is far from being easy and it should be tested (new users would be perfect A/B-test subjects). This should also come with communication around the intents (same as before, if the intent aren't clear and simple, it won't be used as expected and negative feelings may arise even from the best design/idea).

It would also be interesting to have dynamic triggers, for example, if the user have:

  • not upvoted any question in the thread
  • marked a question as "not ideal"

It would trigger a small popup with message to invite him/her to either write a better answer or to pick an existing better answer (this of course will only show occasionally and could be deactivated for more experienced users).

In general I think we should also invite people to interact more with other peoples' answers (quoting/answering problems from other questions). But that's another topic.

-10

If a user hits the daily reputation cap, they can spend, for example, 10 downvotes on low-quality answers, not-an-answer answers, etc. and then they'll be able to earn the 10 rep back when their post gets another upvote non-disturbed by the reputation cap.

Often such downvoted answers get deleted, returning the reputation spent by the ones who downvoted them, so to encourage users to downvote: Downvoting is already a way to get more out of the daily reputation cap.

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  • 5
    How often an average user reaches the rep-cap? Once a year? Perhaps twice? Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 13:26
  • 9
    An "average user"? Probably closer to "never" than "once a year", I guess.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 13:39
  • 5
    As hinted by the other comments, we would prefer an incentive which applies to most users, and not just to those who regularly hit the reputation cap. Not to mention that those who do (hit the rep cap) already have a lot of reputation to spare.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 13:45
  • 1
    Any user who regularly gets rep-capped is surely clever enough to not care about meaningless internet points. Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 13:48
  • 2
    @yivi That makes me above-average. I'm not ready for that Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 13:59
  • 1
    If you get 200 rep a day then surely it's not a problem for you to spend 40 points downvoting answers.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 14:00
  • 1
    it's relatively hard to stay in the negative from just casting downvotes. I've probably thrown away 10k+ rep at this point... the problem isn't getting people who are active and willing to downvote downvoting... it's getting those who'd rather leave a comment and take no action at all to actually use the tools available to them.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 15:57
  • Heck, I get like an upvote a week and I downvote about 20 answers in 3 to 4 days. I've lost a good amount of reputation. And also, if you hit the rep cap, downvote answers and hit the rep cap again, you just landed back in square one. So how does it motivate high rep users to downvote if they don't gain reputation?
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 17:45
  • @10Rep Included in my post... "such answers often get deleted, returning the rep" :)
    – Red
    Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 20:08
  • 1
    @AnnZen for instance, if I downvote a post at the 200 rep cap, I now only gained 199 rep that day. Then when the answer gets deleted (not guaranteed to happen all the time) I just get that 1 rep back. There's no actual gain, meaning this isn't guaranteed to motivate people to downvote for rep. And anyways, having people downvote for rep seems like... a bad idea, no? :)
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 20:17
  • @10Rep No no, I mean downvoting after we reach the daily rep cap will allow potential upvotes on our posts to fill in the gap. So say we received 20 upvotes; we downvote 10 times, and then when we get another upvote, the rep cap won't disturb the 10 rep. Addressing the "having people downvote for rep seems like... a bad idea": reasonable, but the highly agreed on "Remove the -1 rep cost of downvoting an answer" is also a similar concept.
    – Red
    Commented Jun 4, 2021 at 22:37
  • Your idea would work for some users but there are lots of 10k users who wouldn't see the benefit. (I could personally name some users who wouldn't care). But I do get your point.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 5, 2021 at 0:17
  • @10Rep I know, I can name many users too :) Actually, another 10K+ user made me aware of this, so I just thought I'd share it.
    – Red
    Commented Jun 5, 2021 at 2:22
-13

"downvotes are treated as toxic behaviour" because often enough, they are.

I've seen plenty of good questions get downvoted for no apparent reason; what's the OP supposed to do with that? Next time the same OP considers downvoting a Q/A, s/he may think back to own experience and figure that an explanation is warranted for a downvote (thus not bother), or be more lenient. I've also seen questions get upvoted that perform clearly worse per same criterion that users cited for downvoting/closing.

So it's a "luck of the draw" depending on who's watching the question at a given moment - and the effect is powerful; if first two votes are positive, the rest of the votes are likely to be positive - and vice versa. Existing votes appear to have clear influence on future voters. Thus, downvoting can be legitimately perceived as outright destroying a question - so if a user is to cast one, there better be a very good reason for it (as opposed to upvoting).

I haven't run analytics on my own claims, you're free to validate; they're based on observing the python, keras, and tensorflow tags. I also haven't tracked every single example I've come across, but I will paste two:


enter image description here

"More focused" is hardly a valid reason here; the question clearly asks for one thing. The "real" reason for this response is the lack of apparent effort put into the question - fair enough. What isn't fair is the first-time poster's question getting torn apart within the very first minute of posting; to you "SO veterans" this may seem like nothing, but just ask the average low-rep user of their experience.


enter image description here

Now this should've been downvoted and closed for the exact cited reason the above question was. Plenty of questions were closed for asking users to effectively "write software" (chunks of code to meet a goal) for them - this is what the question's doing, yet it's positively received, and it still is, 100+ views later, agreeing with "positives stay positive". Why's it positive? Because other Chainer users wanted to know the same answer. Then, users look at this question and see it upvoted, then compare to their own much higher-effort, better-articulated question, and see it downvoted, and call bullsh!t - and I agree.

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    Now this should've been downvoted and closed for the exact cited reason the above question was --> so where is your downvote and your close vote on it? Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:01
  • 5
    @TemaniAfif Fair question. My answer isn't exhaustive - let's just say at the time I had a net-reason against doing it, and now I just didn't touch it to keep my screenshot and argument valid. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:03
  • 3
    and the effect is powerful; if first two votes are positive, the rest of the votes are likely to be positive --> this is not true, I was able to close/delete question highly upvoted that doesn't meet the quality criteria or are trivial duplicate. I also did it for HNQ question: stackoverflow.com/q/59559606/8620333 Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:04
  • 2
    @TemaniAfif Good - doesn't always happen. And for my tags, far from "always" - and that's the problem. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:04
  • 1
    You are argument can be more valid if you casted a close vote and it was still open and upvoted. Maybe you close vote will pull it to oblivion Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:05
  • 11
    Downvotes are mostly a signal to everyone, not just the poster. And the fact that the scores of some questions may seem completely random is yet another reason to bring more downvotes in, to counter the excess upvotes. The experience around the tags that you mention are skewed because they receive different moderation attention and are also a bit more likely to attract low quality questions (see meta.stackoverflow.com/q/352404). That last screenshot shows a question that would indeed be downvoted and close. The meta effect ought to take care of that now.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:07
  • 1
    Still you didn't give us a potential solution to this. You pointed a problem but what do you suggest to solve the misuse of downvotes? or how to increase the use of downvotes on question that deserve it? Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:08
  • 40
    I'm not sure if it was accidental or intentional, but this answer is a very good example of why we need to encourage more downvoting. That second question, as with many other low-effort questions that don't meet our quality standards, should have had more downvotes.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 9:14
  • 3
    @CodyGray, perhaps I misunderstood, but I took the point to be that encouraging downvotes will just magnify this trend without changing it at all. In other words, things that get downvotes will get more downvotes; things that don't get downvotes will still not get downvotes. In general, I find it difficult to understand why people assume that more downvotes implies better downvotes. Is there any evidence of that at all?
    – senderle
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 11:33
  • 4
    @sen If there are more downvotes overall, why would you assume that their distribution would be uneven? Why would they not be scattered across all eligible posts? Certainly no one has said that more downvotes implies better downvotes. I...don't even know what "better" downvotes might be. What I see here is simply evidence of a low-quality question having been missed (i.e., having received no downvotes), and thus a failure of our quality control system. If we are encouraging more users to downvote, that increases the odds that one of those users will see questions like this and downvote them.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:05
  • 2
    @senderle We don't claim that, but evidence shows that upvotes are cast much more freely even when not that warranted for the post at hand. In the tag I follow most, one may often find quick upvotes on questions which do not even have a minimal reproducible example. This is one of the main reasons for encouraging downvoting.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:06
  • 2
    @CodyGray it sounds like you're saying that encouraging more users to downvote will increase the odds of those users seeing problem questions. What's the causal mechanism there?
    – senderle
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:23
  • 2
    @CodyGray or, to put it another way, you ask "why would you assume that their distribution would be uneven?" To me it seems confused to assume otherwise. If their distribution now is uneven, then it most likely will remain so.
    – senderle
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 12:33
  • 1
    I honestly don't think this answer should have been downvoted so many times. Anyone can disagree, but I see a lot of value of discussion in it, even though I may not agree with it as a whole. Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 13:10
  • 2
    @PaimanRoointan People are free to vote as they see fit. Saying that it has received enough downvotes leaves the idea that any upcoming votes, and therefore the opinion of the rest of the community, is unwanted. For what it's worth, the voting culture on Meta is different. We can embrace it or give it some new directions. Perhaps you would like to be able to use the "thank you" reaction on this answer?
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 13:40
-13

This is a misguided question based on many false premises.

Downvoting ... plays a crucial role in keeping the content on this site clean.

  1. You're assuming it is clean... actually, some of the unclean stuff is highly over-voted, IMHO.
  2. Like other answers suggest, downvoting has many reasons, some justified, some - not really or not at all.
  3. Closure and deletion has a more crucial role in keeping the site clean.

Downvoting is our most powerful tool for us, non-moderator users.

You also have other tools - close votes and flags; not the same purpose as downvotes, but these are pretty powerful. With downvotes you just get a lot of "ammo" and nobody can second-guess you.

edit: Actually, upon reflection, I'd say the comment is a more powerful, and more versatile, tool than any of the above. (Especially if it's one of the first comments on a post.)

Downvotes are a strong signal both to future readers and the author of the post that something is wrong

On other Stack Exchange sites, maybe. On SO - downvoting is more often a sign of a newbie being ganged up on for not realizing how things work around here.

and the experts on this site deem the post to be of little value for future readers.

Almost any user can vote, so - it's really not about the experts.

As everyone knows we rate content, not the users.

That's at best half-true. I'm sure most newbie users would say otherwise.

Votes are not meant to be friendly or offensive.

They are effectively, usually, friendly (upvote) or offensive (downvote). Trying to deny the psychological aspect of this action is sticking your head in the sand. Also, what they're "meant to be" doesn't matter that much; they are what they are.

There's no shame in using the downvote button just as there is no shame in using the upvote button whenever you like.

I've seen a lot of shameful downvoting here on SO. I've also seen some semi-shameful upvoting, but that's more rare. Anyway, either the first or both these statements are false.

It is our own personal choice how we rate the content

And yet, here you are asking for this supposedly personal choice to be socially manipulated...

Bottom line

  • Do downvote - but with care, not with ease.
  • Leave a comment explaining your downvote.
  • Help users (especially new users) improve their posts rather torpedoing them immediately with your downvote.
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  • 9
    "You can cast close votes." not on answers.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 21:04
  • @VLAZ: You're right, there are also flags.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 21:16
  • 11
    Most of said flags on answers would be declined as not what flags are for.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 21:19
  • 10
    Which flag is the preferable one for an answer that tries to address the question but is flawed in its implementation? How do I flag low effort answers that are technically correct but are posted under the Nth dupe to the same thing that shows up at least three times a week?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 21:19
  • @VLAZ: I didn't say flags should be used instead of downvotes. But - you should also not use downvotes instead of flags.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 21:19
  • 6
    You should use flags with downvotes. Use close votes with downvotes.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 21:31
  • @Dharman: Oh no, it's the opposite! Don't downvote because of a closure reason. off-topic != bad.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 21:41
  • 4
    @einpoklum: I highly disagree (except for duplicates). An off-topic question should be downvoted to show other users that there is a problem with that post and that they might be wasting there time with it.
    – BDL
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 11:04
  • @BDL: Until it has been closed as off-topic, a question has "grace"; leave a comment explaining the situation, but don't downvote it... remember: "Downvote ... question if you find it unclear or not useful." If, other than being off-topic, it doesn't meet this criterion, it doesn't merit the downvote. Also remember, that if users find it, it likely means they were looking for something similar to it. So it is not obvious they will be wasting their time.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 13:41
  • 3
    If it's off-topic, it's inherently not useful. People founding questions doesn't make it on-topic or more useful. I could post a question about cooking, which people could be interested in, nevertheless it's off-topic and not useful on SO. I can also post a debugging question without code which is for sure not useful.
    – BDL
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 13:44
  • @BDL: It's not been declared as off-topic. What if it doesn't gather enough close votes and stays up? And - if it's obviously off-topic, then people don't need your downvote to realize that.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 14:08
  • 1
    All the more reason to also down vote, because while the close vote ages away, the downvote stays to indicate that you did not find the question useful.
    – cafce25
    Commented Feb 2 at 7:25
  • @cafce25: On the contrary - that's all the more reason not to downvote, since if the close votes do not amount to a close and age away, that means the post should not have been closed, and the downvote due to close-ability was unmerited.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Feb 2 at 9:30
  • 1
    You've got a twisted reasoning there, the vote is yours, others not agreeing on the CV does not bear any influence on wether your down vote was valid at all.
    – cafce25
    Commented Feb 2 at 9:34
  • 1
    Also close votes aging away is often just because there are too many questions and to few moderating them, not because the question shouldn't be closed.
    – cafce25
    Commented Feb 2 at 9:38
-14

Possibly a radical idea here, but how about we don't?

The question says:

As everyone knows we rate content, not the users. Votes are not meant to be friendly or offensive... Many new users get very offended by a single downvote on their question, yet they have completely no objection for the upvotes. Why is that? Why so many users demand that the downvotes be accompanied by an explanatory comment yet nobody demands an explanation for the upvotes? Do people really value the fake Internet points so much or is it about acceptance by strangers? Why is their perception of our voting systems so skewed?

First of all,

As everyone knows

Not everyone knows, especially not new users.

we rate content, not the users.

That doesn't ring completely true. The ratings on content aggregate up to a rating (rep score) on the user. Upvotes and downvotes directly affect the user's rating in the community and ability to participate more fully.

Many new users get very offended by a single downvote on their question, yet they have completely no objection for the upvotes. Why is that? Why so many users demand that the downvotes be accompanied by an explanatory comment yet nobody demands an explanation for the upvotes? ...

At its core, anonymous downvotes without explanation say "You have failed to meet our community standards in some way, but we won't tell you how, or give you any clear indication of how you can improve to do better next time." That's the opposite of welcoming; it sends the message that the person and their contributions are not wanted in the community: not in their present state, and not even though they are willing to improve if they only knew how...the community doesn't even think it's worth working with the person to welcome them in with corrections to minor shortcomings. That may not be the message the downvoter intended to send, but it's often the message received, especially by newcomers. Experienced users who recognize this won't click the downvote button to send a message they have reason to believe will likely not be received as sent.

Upvotes, with or without comments, send the message that the contribution is valued in the community and encourage contribution of "more content like this" which the contributor already knows how to do, so they would not feel a need to request additional details.

Stack Overflow Inc's goals and direction for the site seem to be focused on "welcoming at all expense, regardless of what the veteran users might think or want," even overriding/violating established policies to kick out people who have served generously with many hundreds of hours of dedicated service because they think doing so might make the site possibly (not necessarily truly!) a bit more welcoming for people who aren't even active contributors. Trying to encourage downvotes, especially without comment, would go directly against that direction and goal.

4
  • 1
    "the community doesn't even think it's worth working with the person to welcome them in with corrections to minor shortcomings" That is pretty much what it means. If we think the post can be improved then we edit and/or comment. If we think the post is not useful then we downvote and move on. Next time please post something more useful.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 23:40
  • 2
    At its core, anonymous downvotes without explanation say "You have failed to meet our community standards in some way, but we won't tell you how, or give you any clear indication of how you can improve to do better next time." Well, no. They don't exist for the poster. They never have. They're not supposed to. The system needs to be a better job of explaining that.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 23:44
  • 11
    "Not everyone knows, especially not new users." Then the solution is that we need to better communicate the purpose of downvotes to them, not to discourage content curation. Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 23:54
  • @JohnMontgomery: Declaring downvotes have a certain purpose does not make them (only) have that person in practice. Downvotes mean what people use them for + what people interpret them to mean.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Jul 27, 2020 at 7:44
-15

I think the problem is kind of imbalanced.

"This answer is useful" => how to answer that? Yes, for me it is useful, so there is at least one person for which the answer is useful, so I can upvote and know that this is a right action.

"This answer is not useful" => ok, for me it isn't. Should I downvote all answers which are (currently) not useful for me? How can I tell, that this answer won't be usefult for anyone else? There might be some hints, but from statement logic's points of view, I can't tell whether "this is not useful" from my subjective point of view.

Similar for question's tooltip of upvote/downvote. "Research effort" looks completely different for beginners and domain experts. Where's the limit?

It is easy to tell "I like that question/answer" or "This question/answer helped me" and it is still easy to say "for me, I see no worth in that question/answer".

But it is hard to tell "there will be nobody who gets any help from this question/answer". This includes the question, whether I have enough competence to detect whether a question/answer is meaningful or not. That's not always the case. But if you, in general, support downvotes, anyone who is disappointed from some posting could harm someone, who has spent time and maybe has given an answer that is useful for many others. Sounds discouraging to me.

Why should I discourage anyone on asking questions? Why should I discourage anyone on answering, even it it's only opinion-based?

I like the gamification aspects, mentioned earlier here, that you could get reward from downvoting, once a question is closed (I would split a total reward to all the downvoters, but that's a detail). However, there are still possibilities to exploit this.

2
  • 8
    "Why should I discourage anyone on asking questions? Why should I discourage anyone on answering, even it it's only opinion-based?". Because adding noise to the repository makes it less valuable for all the future visitors that come for existing answers. It's about benefiting the larger group of users: future visitors.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 13:07
  • 2
    @yivi: is that opinion or fact? I've already gotten valuable information from negative voted answers and I've already successfully answered negatively voted questions. And now, I dont even know whether my posting here was downvoted because someone doesnt like these two aspects in my answer, or the general idea, that there is some imabalance in "is useful for me" (upvote) vs. "is in general a bad answer" (downvote). If I would downvote all Q/A which are currently not useful for me, I would have to downvote 99% of all the questions, some of them I would have to upvote in a few years again...
    – Micka
    Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 14:14
-15

[EDIT: Updated in the comments]

<Sorry if this has already been said, but> Since the downvote harms both me (-1 reputation penalty) and my target (some other reputation penalty), I would much rather comment the persons answer and explain that he did something wrong (and WHAT exactly). Moreover, you say downvotes shouldn't always be clarified - I strongly disagree with that. There's no point in knowing you asked or answered a question wrong if you don't know what would be the right way to do this. Comments are the constructive way to criticise someone, while downvotes - the destructive. I would have used them more often if they didn't have any penalties except marking the post as less deserving attention, but currently it's a PUNISHMENT, and I don't consider that an appropriate reaction to things

9
  • 11
    Try for a few month to leave a comment for each vote you cast, then count afterwards how often your resulting experience was positive and how often it was negative. My motivation to leave comments faded after being called words for the tens time and having to deal with the fallout on my own answers (revenge downvotes, commenting with swear words on my answers). In the same timeframe almost no question have been improved after my comments.
    – BDL
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 14:00
  • 2
    It looks like you haven't read this. Anything proposing such a requirement needs to withstand scrutiny against the arguments in the link. This one does not.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 14:08
  • 5
    At this point, with 60+ answers, this one repeats something already mentioned (and debunked) multiple times. It'd benefit everybody if you could go over some of those existing answers to see how people feel about this stance.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 14:38
  • 1
    I'd like to mention how my post in just an hour gathered 7 downvotes. With my 70 reputation total, this really discourages me to try answering at all. This question was recoomended to me (for some reason) by stackoverflow itself, and I went through as many answers, as I could afford (around 5, they were very long) and didn't find any saying the same, so I thought that I'd post my opinion in case it helps anyone. In case it didn't, however, I apologized in advance, but I'm still being punished instead of informed. As for the specific comments: ...
    – abel1502
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 16:02
  • ... 1) I don't have much experience on stackoverflow, but in general politely explaining the problems while still answering the question, if possible, has always worked for me. 2) I don't propose any requirements, only suggest that constructive critics would seem more efficient in most conditions. In general, I don't get why in this case my answer gets downvoted, even despite three clarifying comments. I don't see anything being wrong, other than people disaggreeing with my opinion (which is normal, but doesn't seem like a reason to decrease my reputation). ...
    – abel1502
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 16:02
  • ... I, however, will not remove my question to avoid downvotes and huge (at my scale) reputation harm, since somewhere here it was asked not to do so. If anyone believes it should be deleted anyway, please inform me in the comments.
    – abel1502
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 16:02
  • 5
    Updates should go in the answer itself, not in the comments. Comments aren't intended to be permanent.
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 16:07
  • 4
    "This answer is not useful" is the text on the downvote tooltip. How, if there are 60+ answers, can you assume your answer is going to be useful and not deserve to be rated as not useful if you only read 5 answers? It's not punishment, it's telling future readers that hey, on these 60+ answers, this one isn't worth reading, so you can focus on the ones that are.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 16:09
  • 6
    Votes on meta are used more relaxed than on the main site. Also note, that voting on meta doesn't influence your reputation.
    – BDL
    Commented Jun 29, 2020 at 16:11
-15

I checked the huge number of existing answers and was surprised that nobody already spoke my point of view.

I'm wondering if this question is not totally missing the point. Downvoting is a kind of hammer and the question is asking how to make it a bigger hammer. But the actual problem to solve is curation of the site content, specifically getting rid of bad questions and bad answers. Should that problem be solved using a bigger hammer or a screwdriver?

First I'm quite sure the answer isn't the same for questions and for answers.

Downvoting is a very efficient mechanism to clear bad answers. Also because of the gamification system most contributors whose answers are downvoted will delete them quickly when it's happening. And I would plead this is indeed what we want and that it makes the site content better. The only drawback on the downvote on questions is for opinion based questions, but these are not welcome on Stack Overflow anyway. It could lead yet lead to troubles on other Stack Exchange sites.

On the other hand downvoting on questions is at least partially conflicting with the closing mechanism. For someone who has both rights, it is not obvious why a question should be downvoted rather than closed. OK, you could say that downvoting is about question visibility and closing about genuinely bad questions that we don't want altogether for some reason. But hey! What does that mean. Obscure subjects are already hidden because fewer people are voting for them. Henceforth, is it about questions we don't want to be answered on popular subjects? How arrogant! In the end I'm still scratching my head as what downvotes on questions are actually meaning in the current system. Also in many cases I feel like a bad question should really be neither downvoted nor closed, but deleted at least until its content is improved.

I'm quite sure I'm not alone and that the first thing that would help downvoting on questions would be to clarify its meaning. I could be quite radical here:

OK, there is my actual proposal:

  • make 10 downvotes (or another figure) means the question is deleted.

  • Users aren't losing reputation points when downvoting questions: make it clear the system is different for downvoting questions and answers This would help because if you believe question does not belong to Stack Overflow and should be deleted you can express yourself, the current method is mostly aesthetic (hiding downvoted questions). This would help reduce the amount of garbage in the queues that need to be processed by reviewers: no more need to harass users with close vote level or moderators; the downvoted questions could directly be removed from queues. We could also remove the close option except for duplicates. Enough users think it's a bad question should lead to deletion without other control gate needed. Basically, if it works well, the only remaining reason for "closing" should be dealing with genuinely good questions already answered as duplicates (thus "close" could be replaced by "mark as duplicate"). This would also solve a fundamental issue related to "close". Curators are actually taking the high hand on people willing to answer blocking any possible answer. Making the question less visible, and eventually removed, would remove the need for that.

  • for downvote of answers change nothing. It's working (or maybe also give the reputation points back to the downvoter if the answer is deleted)

11
  • 7
    It already works like this. We already have delete votes. We can delete really bad questions and answers. We close questions that should not be answered. Downvotes are not a replacement for either of these things.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 14:46
  • @Dharman: So it is even less clear what downvotes are for. Could your share your lights on this ? The main problem with downvotes is that their purpose is totally obscure for questions. Is it about genuinely bad questions that should not be asked ? If so why keep them at all and use another system to remove them while adding to the burden of already overburdened curators of the site. If this is not about questions we do not want, what are downvotes about ? The only non overlapping part I can see between closing and downvoting for question are duplicates.
    – kriss
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 15:51
  • 5
    It has already been explained extensively here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252677/…
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 15:56
  • 4
    And also here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/251735/…
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 15:59
  • @Dharman: Actually your links don't provide any insight of why any questions should be donwvoted but neither closed nor even deleted. If close is a bigger hammer than downvote but basically the same, and delete an even bigger hammer still for the same purpose, let the full job up to deletion be done by the smaller hammer.
    – kriss
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 16:24
  • 8
    The question can be deleted only by using down votes, close votes, delete votes, or combination of all of them. They are all different tools. If the links I provided do not explain it to you what is the difference I can't explain any more clearer than that.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 16:38
  • That is not true stackoverflow.com/help/deleted-questions actual deletion of questions needs manual moderator action or votes from users with close/delete privileges. Merely downvoting questions won't lead to question deletion without harassing some high-rep user or moderator. That's the whole point of my proposal. You want more downvote, make them actually count for site curation. In their current state close votes are merely decorative (and the rep is indeed a non issue for questions).
    – kriss
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 16:52
  • 6
    Yes, they do. Plenty of questions get deleted by the system just because they have a negative score. See stackoverflow.com/help/roomba As I said in the question, downvotes are our most precious tool. They have so many uses. If you can't vote to close or delete then a downvote might delete the question, but even if it doesn't it still serves the point of rating the content.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 16:55
  • Help center not up to date ?
    – kriss
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 16:57
  • 4
    Help center is not 100% up to date, but this information is actually there.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 16:58
  • The link you provided is still telling something completely different. It's not at all about removing Questions because they have many downvotes. There are many criteria and the only way downvote seems to be taken into account "is question has a negative score". It is clearer here meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5221/… This is totally different from "deletion because question got many downvotes".
    – kriss
    Commented Jun 28, 2020 at 17:03
-16

Change the downvote down arrow to something else, like “Does not answer question” or “not relevant” or “not useful/helpful”. I would be more willing to click that than a downvote button.

8
  • 4
    I'm not sure I understand how that text can fit there. There is already a pop-up (used to be a tool-tip) that has a similar text.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:07
  • We can put the arrows on their side. Left - the post is not useful. Right - the post was useful.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:09
  • 2
    @Dharman I suppose, but up/down is intuitive. Left/right is not.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 21, 2020 at 23:11
  • That's some of what Close voting offers. We don't need to duplicate.
    – Ken Y-N
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 1:15
  • 1
    This idea sounds a bit similar to the naming effect that Brian mentions in this answer. Maybe the label "downvote" makes is more personal than another label would do. Maybe renaming it would already improve the "downvote rate"? Although I'm not sure about that. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 8:27
  • The tooltip on the downvote arrow reads: "Downvote this answer if you find it unclear or not useful." Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 12:50
  • "Does not answer question" is a reason to flag an answer or ask that the author remove it.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 20:48
  • @ein The close reason you are referring to is reserved for answers that do not attempt to answer the question (e.g. a comment asking for clarification, a follow-up question, etc.). If a proposed answer attempts to answer the question, but gets it wrong, you are asked to vote on it. Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 4:36
-16

Many new users get very offended by a single downvote on their question, yet they have completely no objection for the upvotes. Why is that?

It's in the "101 human's behaviour" class. A positive comment reinforces your behaviour, while constructive, negative feedback points you to a more effective way of thinking. Have you created any thread here in meta asking why you are so, damn good in something as a company? Probably no. Because most of the feedback will be "you are doing it great. Keep going". A downvote, following by a comment with explanation is the only way that you properly, educate users.

Why I don't downvote

If I don't have time to leave a proper feedback, I don't downvote

Most of the times, I feel sorry about the user. The impact it has is enormous and more than what you think. I advised a lot of friends and colleagues to ask questions here. Those who were hammered by downvotes just stopped asking. Some of them even asked me to post the question. They had absolutely no idea what they did wrong.

Even if I have time to leave I feedback, I still prefer to not downvote

What if I explain to the user what they did wrong and they improve the quality of the question? What if someone else does it and I leave a downvote that won't be valid a couple of hours later? What if my downvote is part of a great edited question? I don't always have the time to come back and check the questions I downvote and see how they changed. Why should I punish a user permanently if I can just leave a comment explaining what they can do to improve it? Or just flag the question if it is off topic?

What we can change to make downvote acceptable?

  1. Make it mandatory to leave a comment. Yes. Don't let users cast downvotes without leaving a proper explanation. Downvotes without content are just opinions. We need constructive feedback.

  2. Increase the reputation you lose when you cast downvote to -2 or -3. But, if the user edits the question and the votes turns to positive OR if a moderator closes the question, refund the reputation and give +1 as bonus to the users who casted a downvote.

  3. Create a new page as a short tutorial, with examples of bad questions and questions that will probably get negative votes. If a user keeps getting downvotes, then forward this tutorial page to his email. Why? Because most of the times, you feel that is a lost hope by just casting a downvote. No-one will become better. The OP will not improved and you just did it for nothing. If I know that my downvote will be a reason to educate a user, then I will happily do it.

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    "A downvote, following by a comment with explanation is the only way that you properly, educate users." also, often enough - retribution.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 15:50
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    "What if I explain to the user what she did wrong and she improves the quality of the question? What if someone else does it and I leave a downvote that won't be valid a couple of hours later? What if my downvote is part of a great edited question?" I suggest using the follow feature. I use it extensively and almost always follow a post after downvoting it. Rather seldom a post I've followed gets updated. Rarer still, that edit addresses an issue. So, maybe your downvote mars an excellent post in the future but chances are low from my experience.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 15:53
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    "Downvotes without content are just opinions" That is what downvotes are. They are opinions. If you don't like the post then you should be free to express your opinion.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 16:32
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    While I like your explanation at the start I need to point out that your suggestions are the opposite of what the question asked. We do not want to have less downvotes or make it more difficult for people to cast downvotes. We need more opinions. If you like the questions and you want OP to improve it then talk to them in the comment section and explain what they can do to improve it, or edit the post yourself.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 16:35
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    You can cast downvotes regardless of whether the post is of good quality or not. Sometimes I leave a comment and the downvote but once the post is improved I only remove the comment and not the downvote. I still don't like the post, but I did help OP to improve it so that the next one they post will be better received by everyone else.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 16:36
  • @Dharman If self-moderating is based entirely on opinions, then we are doomed to have a reputation hunting game. Users vote strategically and not based on the actual question. Imagine that you add a comment that a few users don't like. Then they downvote every single question and answer you have posted. They are free to do it. It is their opinion. But is it right? We should never judge something with plain opinions. We need arguments.
    – Tasos
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 7:47
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    Re "Make it mandatory to leave a comment": The canonical is Encouraging people to explain downvotes (cross-site) Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 12:39
  • From my experience, leaving a down-vote with a comment rarely gets a question updated. Maybe 1 out of 20 questions are improved after that. Most of the time op never responds at all. So because of the 5% chance that something will improve, we should stop marking bad questions? Is that really fair given that most people visit SO coming from a search engine and want to see good questions with good answers and not terrible question without answers?
    – BDL
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 12:45
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    @BDL By your logic, none of this is worthwhile and we should just give up. 90% of visitors come by once or twice and never again, 90% of questions are garbage, 90% of answers are garbage. Nobody agrees on what's right, nobody agrees on what's best, and the one certainty is that if SE is still around in ten years, people will STILL be arguing over the right way to handle downvoting and there STILL won't be a solution. Because there isn't one. There can't be one. It's impossible to achieve.
    – barbecue
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 13:31
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    This is pretty much the reason I downvote rarely as well. I much prefer to vote to close which is an explicit form of feedback, and I do usually leave comments in that case. I will however downvote answers which I feel are factually incorrect or perhaps definitely bad advice. Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 1:09
  • @Dharman, the Code of Conduct says nothing about expressing subjective opinions. The Code of Conduct clearly states among community's four expectactions: "Be clear and constructive when giving feedback, and be open when receiving it." Commented Jun 25, 2020 at 6:44
  • "Those who were hammered by downvotes..." . Surely you could have seen why and helped them understand. Individual posts rarely get a lot of downvotes unless they are unintelligible, could very easily be answered in a web search or are way outside the scope outlined in the help center. People who help here a lot also have a right to expect a reasonable level of quality. It's not all about those asking
    – charlietfl
    Commented Jun 27, 2020 at 20:37
-17

What can we do to encourage downvoting?

What makes you think we need to?

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Meanwhile, in another part of the galaxy... enter image description here

Fact: SO 'grazers' (those who look for answers to their questions, but don't bother/care to take the time for up/down-voting), will always greatly outnumber the 'regulars' (those who actively work to curate what they consider quality content).
And I suspect the ratio of 'missing' up-votes to visible down-votes is significant, even with a conservative estimate. So, who's version of quality content do you want - the grazers or the regulars? Ideally, both. Consequently, a balance must be enforced. And I think that's what SO is efforting when they increase the proverbial cost for down-votes.

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    If your question was viewed +1k times, and none of those views upvoted it, I would point out that votes strongly correlate with views, and if I was looking for answers to the same question I would upvote it. If anything, that kind of reflects on the quality of the question rather than the viewers.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 29, 2020 at 21:19
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    "I would point out that votes strongly correlate with views..." According to what metric? I don't think they necessarily do. And that's why SO skews the cost of up-votes vs. down-votes and rewards posts with high views, regardless.
    – Tracy
    Commented Jul 29, 2020 at 21:32
  • 1
    rewards with... a badge? i mean, they reward a lot of weird things with badges.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 29, 2020 at 21:39
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    @Braiam: I . . . can't imagine how the question quality could be much better. Unless you mean it should have been self-answered, which seems a rather high standard. Commented Jul 29, 2020 at 22:28
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    @JonEricson I think the point that Braiam's making is that high views, low votes probably indicates a search target trap: people are seeing the post in Google, clicking through, and not finding what they're looking for. (Those who have time and inclination might edit or leave a downvote.) The answer also has not been voted on much at all compared to its view count. So while the page might not be bad, it may not be "good" (for some definition) either. And we can't simply equate page views with value -- there might even be negative value in some cases. (cont'd)
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 29, 2020 at 23:47
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    Cf. How to save the world... one question title at a time?
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 29, 2020 at 23:49
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    @jscs: How do you square that with the 7 upvotes the answer got? Commented Jul 30, 2020 at 0:13
  • @JonEricson the same way I explain the score on the question. The answer might be useful, the question not so much.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 30, 2020 at 0:17
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    @Braiam: Surely the answer exists because of the question? (But we've been through this before. Questions seem to be assumed worthless until they have some mystical quality I can never detect.) Commented Jul 30, 2020 at 0:33
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    @JonEricson I mean, the OP hasn't been very forthcomming with us. The -1 vs 1k views is actually +2/-3 vs 1k view. The question got -3 votes immediately after being asked, and got two votes since then (it was in the close queue too). There are comments that put into question the knowledge of what the asker is doing (the title as jscs doesn't help). Also, the answer is a "you are doing it wrong" kind of answer, which also got most of its votes after being asked.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 30, 2020 at 0:41
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    I just don't see how this answers the question. You're pointing out that one question got one downvote, and using that as evidence that there doesn't need to be any encouragement of downvoting? A sample size of 1 is not a compelling argument. There are plenty of extremely low-quality posts that don't get downvoted. That's what we need to fix.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 30, 2020 at 1:16
  • @JonEricson If you see the answer timeline, 4 of the 7 came on the same day it was posted, which means they are unlikely to be from inbound searchers. And the next upvote was nearly two years later. So my reading is that those 1000 viewers arrived and were unimpressed. Again, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the Q or A here; I'm only disputing the idea that 1000 views equates to goodness.
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 30, 2020 at 15:21
  • 1
    "I'm simply suggesting that SO/SE has analyzed the data and determined that down-votes need to cost more, to provide a balanced community." While this sounds reasonable, even compelling, I can assure you that it is wrong. Jeff Atwood, the site's founder, created this policy before there was even any data to analyze, and it's been in place ever since. There was no data behind it whatsoever, and I haven't heard any indication that SE has analyzed the data from years' worth of usage in order to confirm the original supposition.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2020 at 3:51
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    I do personally agree that beginner questions get a poorer reception here than they should. Downvotes on questions are free and don't cost anything, so this rationale can't be applied to explain this. Even if it could, that's not really a reason to discourage downvoting overall. We still need more downvoting on low-quality questions and answers. I regularly see spam and homework dumps (where there is no question in sight) get upvoted. There's just no excuse for that.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2020 at 3:53
  • 7
    Fatigue with all the other low-quality questions has made people quick to judge. More downvoting is the solution to that: it means fewer low-quality questions being put into the faces of active users. I have spoken with several users who are relatively new to this site, and they're constantly bombarded, on the front page, with blatantly off-topic questions. It's very frustrating and confusing for them. If these questions were downvoted, they wouldn't appear on the front page anymore. Shifting everything to the right by just giving more upvotes doesn't solve that problem. QC needs balance.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2020 at 22:29
-18

IMO, voting up/down should be encouraged more than voting to close. A -200 question is not locked out and people who wish to engage with the question/user are not discouraged to do so.

A closed question eliminates the communities' ability to engage with and develop a new user.

Its a fairly standard joke that googling an issue you find 1 result which is a stack overflow question that was marked as a duplicate and linked to something that's 10 years old and does not answer the question. Closing a question removes future people for developing the answer for odd things.

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    Closed questions can be edited and commented on. In the majority of cases, that's because they aren't answerable on Stack Overflow. The solution is to edit the question so it is acceptable. However, that is most likely a job for the question asker, as they usually have the most of the relevant information. For example, if they ask for debugging help but haven't supplied enough information to find the problem, then nobody can definitively answer the question at all.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 12:41
  • 3
    Voting to close is for questions which should be closed, up/down-voting is for questions which should exist on the site. These are essentially orthogonal.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Jun 23, 2020 at 13:42
  • What do you mean by "people who wish to engage can"? E.g., engage in what way? Can you elaborate (preferably by editing your answer)? Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 12:48
  • 3
    The jokers could have asked a new question explaining why the duplicate and the answer don't work in their context. They didn't, instead they went to reddit to post a meme. Fine. Our content curation system works.
    – rene
    Commented Jun 24, 2020 at 17:32

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