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Lots of people believe that their job is actually useless - and knowing your jobs are meaningless makes people depressed. That's how it feels to have to try to vote to close and/or edit questions that just have links to code or have too little code.

It feels like a waste of time. Like faxing instead of emailing, or like mowing a lawn with scissors instead of a lawnmower because "the powers that be" only gave you scissors and won't buy a lawnmower. This is because it seems like there are things that could be done but the company isn't doing them - therefore creating busywork.

It's also no fun because it feels like a rebuke to the user. There are nice ways to tell them but ideally, they shouldn't have gotten this far in the first place. It also feels like it's possibly pointless.

I know this part will be controversial but basically, it feels like being given busywork instead of actual work and as such it feels like the company should either (a) prioritize finding ways to stop it or (b) just stop trying and change the rules. I'd vote for (a) but I'm not holding my breath so I'm wondering at what point is (b) the more responsible/prudent/realistic option.

Maybe people can suggest solutions below.

A few ideas off the top of my head:

  • Maybe more aggressively add to the list of sites that get warnings when posting? At one point it was just jsfiddle and codepen but there are probably 50 or more sites that need to be on that list nowadays, possibly including GitHub.

    Yes, GitHub would just get a warning but maybe the warning should be pretty stern as in "we see you have a link to github. If you don't have enough code in the question itself to reproduce the issue your question will be closed"

  • Maybe if the question has web-related tags then on submit strongly suggest an MRE snippet

    Note: AFAICT most of the questioners making this mistake have no idea snippets even exist which is a perfect example of forcing all the answerers to do the busywork of informing people that the feature exists rather than the site itself doing this automatically and saving us the trouble.

  • Maybe consider adding support for more languages in snippets so other languages can also more easily be on topic. Possibly partner with some site(s) that already do this for other languages rather than do it yourselves?

    For example the electronics site partners with circuit lab to have a circuit diagrams embedded. repl.it supports more languages. Apparently github will be adding something too and I'm sure there are more 3rd party sites that could provide this feature for S.O.

  • Maybe let people with tag rep insta-close for the "questions asking for debugging help need code in question" reason, same as they can insta-close for duplicates?

  • Maybe links to more examples based on tags?

    I monitor the WebGL tag. WebGL is a verbose API. Some users complain their code will be too big and yet there are 1000s of examples of fully working WebGL snippets that are not that big. I'd love it if (a) there were galleries of per topic examples users could be pointed to and (b) if they were pointed to them automatically. In other words

    📎: "It looks like you're writing a question on . Here are 12 example minimal repos for you could use as a template create your own."

  • Move Tags to the top of the question wizard

    As it as tags are at the bottom. If they were moved to the top then hopefully the user will fill them in first giving you more info to direct their question. At the bottom it's arguably too late. This could be used for the previous suggestion if providing links to examples of minimal repos. It could also be used to decide which service to use for working code if you choose to support more than just html/css/javascript.

  • Make the question wizard more model / step based

    I don't think I like this idea but maybe it will inspire something else. If the question wizard said

    1. enter tags __________ [next]
    2. enter question _________ [next]
    3. insert minimal repo ..code.editor.. [next]
    4. review .... [submit]

    Would it lead to more on topic questions? I know it would be frustrating so I'm not suggesting it. What I am trying to make clear as that at least for html/css/javascript users, most have no idea they can even enter live working code snippets. Making that clear somehow would at least given them direction that it's possible. Ideally it would be possible for more than just html/css/javascript

    On second thought, maybe until your rep is 15 points or something you should get an step by step wizard to handhold you through entering your question. It should start with tags and for any language that's supported it should present the snippet editor as one of the steps?

The goal here is to be helpful:

  • Helpful to the site's stated goals that a question without enough code to repo an issue is off-topic therefore it's a goal not to have those kinds of questions.

  • Helpful to users because the sooner they ask an on-topic question the sooner they get help. They'll also be happier not having their questions closed.

  • Helpful to responsible answerers so they can avoid this busywork and the uncomfortableness of having to direct questioners.

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    Is there any statistics available how many of the new questions are link to offsite code only? Jun 3, 2020 at 7:36
  • 8
    I don't know. I can't search deleted comments and I usually delete the comment if they add the code (and remove my vote to close as off topic). It feels like I have to write this comment 1 to 3 times a day. I'm sure it's not that often but it feels that often. I just wrote one today (hence why I'm here). I know I wrote one yesterday. I know I wrote 3 the day I posted this Q (which is what prompted me to write). And, of course it's not just one comment. Users complain or still don't post enough code to see the issue and you have to go back and forth to help them.
    – gman
    Jun 4, 2020 at 8:54
  • "Maybe let people with tag rep insta-close for the "questions asking for debugging help need code in question" reason, same as they can insta-close for duplicates?" Ha. If only...
    – MattDMo
    Jun 6, 2020 at 19:26
  • 5
    @Trilarion Yeah there's statistics. Here are the statistics: All the time. Too f*in' many. Many per day in my non-SQL product DB tags. (Which are frequently also tagged with SQL product tags.) (Mostly to images of text---code, tables & ERDs (pictures of DDL)--mostly at i.stack.imgur.com.)
    – philipxy
    Jun 14, 2020 at 9:06
  • 1
    If you're looking for an easy way of running code in many programming languages online, check out tio.run.
    – pppery
    Jun 14, 2020 at 15:52
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    I really think that the stack is losing out because it restricts how folks can ask questions. Everyone may not be capable of asking a question in the way that is required, but that doesn't mean that the question being asked isn't useful or will solicit a useful answer. I believe the stack should make every effort to answer any question that can be answered as opposed to avoiding questions by shooting them down according to the way in which it was asked. Just a passing thought.
    – grldsndrs
    Jun 15, 2020 at 3:44
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    @grldsndrs That's a terrible idea, because it would fill the site with noise that makes it harder to search for anything. Jun 15, 2020 at 4:19
  • 4
    Isn't this problem is what new (it's actually old already) ask question wizard is supposed to solve?
    – Sinatr
    Jun 15, 2020 at 5:55
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    This is basically a case study for machine learning. I'm guessing SO Inc don't want to invest the time/money into that though. It's cheaper (and TBH probably more accurate) to enlist a horde of "helpers"
    – Liam
    Jun 15, 2020 at 7:21
  • @philipxy "Here are the statistics ..." I had hoped for a bit more. Jun 15, 2020 at 7:23
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    @Liam "This is basically a case study for machine learning." Are you sure machine learning is needed? The presence of a link to known code hosting sites and the absence of code in the question itself should probably detect like 90% of the cases, or not? Jun 15, 2020 at 7:24
  • Is this about the research that goes into a question, the length of a question, the neatness of a question, the complexity of the question, or just about if it has links?
    – 0-1
    Jun 15, 2020 at 14:50
  • 1
    @Jonathan I believe it is about the content of the question, where essential information is not included in the main body of the question, but is only available somewhere else, potentially not in text, and who knows for how long. Such questions should be closed but even better would be to remind and warn people about it more efficiently before they ask so that these questions will include everything that's needed instead. That's how I understood this question. Jun 16, 2020 at 6:18
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    We could also make sure users see the warning about questions needing to be clear without images. As stated on my feature request, users gain the ability to post images at 10 rep but the warning goes away at 15. I still regularly see people suggest edits that add images of text to questions.
    – BSMP
    Jun 16, 2020 at 17:07
  • @Joseph Sible-Reinstate Monica Apologies for the late response, but I think the concept of 'Search Engines' might disagree is concepts could speak.
    – grldsndrs
    Dec 1, 2020 at 16:43

5 Answers 5

17

I would like to provide the perspective that providing links to external code is totally fine and possibly very helpful if the question is complete without the link.

This comes mainly from my experience in the tag. A question might provide a code snippet and ask some question about it. As a courtesy to readers, it might additionally contain a https://godbolt.org link which mirrors the code and is configured in a way that simplifies reproducing the problem. This makes good sense because (at least I suspect) most advanced users in the C++ tag will just copy-paste any given question code into godbolt to tinker with it if the solution isn't obvious right away.

Examples:

(Just searching for "godbolt" will bring up as many as you like...)

There is no reason to block these links (or other online compilers), so long as the question itself contains a reasonable amount of code. A hard blacklist would be a big step backwards.

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    Same for typescript + the TypeScript playground
    – Nino Filiu
    Jun 16, 2020 at 20:16
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    Looks to me like a good argument for s.o. to support live C++ snippets. (and typescript)
    – gman
    Jun 16, 2020 at 23:59
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    I don't see how this answers the question. The OP is talking about questions that don't include the code in the post and rely on the external resource only. Also there was no suggestion for blacklisting such links, there was a suggestion to show a warning message.
    – Bergi
    Jun 17, 2020 at 7:58
  • Big reason: Off-site sources have a tendency to disappear over time.
    – martineau
    Feb 9, 2022 at 1:12
11

Are you trying to reduce the frequency of such questions, or relieve your own feelings of frustration? I'm not trying to goad you, I'm serious, and the solution will depend on exactly which problem we're trying to solve.

If there really are too many such questions, my first instinct would be to add a close option: this question depends on an external link...

If we reduce the frequency tenfold, but you still see a dozen of them a day, they will still drive you nuts, and that is a legitimate problem. If that's the problem, then we could install an opt-in filter, such that you will not see questions containing links to sites on the blacklist. (And you could adjust your personal blacklist, and/or have a robot add sites that are linked to in questions that gather the aforementioned depends on... close-votes.)

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    There's already a close option: "Needs debugging details: The question should be updated to include desired behavior, a specific problem or error, and the shortest code necessary to reproduce the problem."
    – S.S. Anne
    Jun 15, 2020 at 4:38
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    I'm trying to get users to leave an on-topic question without the busywork of having to manually comment and flag every single one of them which is what has to be done now. The site itself does almost nothing to encourage users to leave the required code. Lots more could be done. I suggested some ideas for solutions. Maybe you have some more.
    – gman
    Jun 15, 2020 at 5:56
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    The title says that the goal is preventing these questions from being asked. Closing them quickly and/or ignoring them may indeed achieve that goal eventually, but only indirectly. This answer does not indicate any direct action that could be taken. I guess this answer then boils down to: nothing can be done to prevent these questions from being asked? Jun 15, 2020 at 7:28
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    @S.S.Anne: I don't consider that a good match. A reasonable OP could say "What? Whaddayamean needs details? I linked to my complete codebase, output and error logs! What more could anyone want?" For that reason, when I vote to close such a Question, I write a comment explaining that the links are the problem, and choose the community-specific; other... option, with more text.
    – Beta
    Jun 15, 2020 at 11:39
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    @gman: There may be other good ideas, but I for one want more information before I propose any; e.g. I'd like to know how effective the current warnings are. The statistics on how many warnings are given, and how often the user then removes the offending link, ought to be quite easy to gather, and might rule out a whole class of solutions as useless. Much of the impetus behind this project seems to be annoyance, which doesn't make for good engineering.
    – Beta
    Jun 15, 2020 at 11:50
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    Needs debugging details option doesn't specifically mention that the code should be located in question body, not to mention that a lot of users are clueless about what MCVE looks like and why it matters. That askers are communicated through close votes is a burden for readers and hostile to newbies because they are notified after the close. And yes, this is a very common problem, from my own rough estimate every third question from new users (<= 20 rep) fails to provide MCVE, and every sixth just links to pastebin/article/repo. Several times lower for seasoned users (1000s of rep). Jun 15, 2020 at 11:51
  • @Trilarion: Yeah, I was treating it as something of an XY Problem. See my comment to gman above. I am certainly not saying that no direct action to prevent the posting of such questions is possible, I'm saying that most such actions would be ineffective or counterproductive, and we should bear in mind that (as with so many problems in IT) a perfect solution would probably require a human-level AI designed to enjoy such tedious work.
    – Beta
    Jun 15, 2020 at 11:59
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    @EstusFlask Yes, it does. It says "in the question itself". That text is even set in italics. Jun 15, 2020 at 18:51
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    @CodyGray It doesn't... The close reason has this text: "The question should be updated to include desired behavior, a specific problem or error, and the shortest code necessary to reproduce the problem.". It doesn't specify it has to be in the code itself. However ... The help section does, way burried deep in it. The tour is almost useless in providing information besides "click here for reputation". The section "Get answers to practical, detailed questions" almost gets it right, but falls short. It doesn't even say to check the help!!! Or how to write a good question! Jun 16, 2020 at 16:49
10

I will propose something brave and controversial and explain why I propose it, knowing that there are a lot of cases I have not thought of that could make it really difficult to implement.

  • Questions should not be able to contain link to external sites* for the first 24hrs, nor the first comment should be from the author of the question.

The problem we are trying to tackle is basically that users are asking question in a format that makes it difficult to self-contain everything that is needed. Hosting to different site is not a problem per-se, but there is no control over the external site and if that goes away than the question might be left in an unintelligible state.

Making so that all possible tools that could be used to create such a question (I thought of links but there could be more) are prohibited for the first 24hrs will highlight this to the user, that will be forced to create a question with all the necessary parts.

The addendum about the comment is necessary to avoid the basic workaround "write something in the question, add link in the comment" that slightly more familiar but still inexperienced users might come up with.

After 24hrs, the question should be consistent enough that lifting the restrictions should not be a problem.

There will be frustration and the amount of flag is probably not going to reduce, since a (probably considerable) part of those question is going to end up without any information at all, but it might work.

*for external site I mean sites which are not under the control of the network, and that might rot without the network knowing it. This excludes resources like img.stack.imgur et simila, that have been introduced to fight resource rotting in first place, and that can for this reason be accepted.

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    Interesting idea. Do you propose to include i.stack.imgur to that list though? On the one hand that is often helpful (e.g. OP's asking about how to design plots for scientific purposes), on the other hand it's often abused to add screenshots of code.
    – Adriaan
    Jun 15, 2020 at 13:10
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    I was thinking about limiting images, and I know if the abuse, but I think in the context of the "non-permanent question problem", images hosted do not pose a threat. Does a screenshot of a code makes a bad question? yes. Does it make a question probably useless in a couple of years? no, it will just remain a bad question forever. Also, some AI magic could identify those images and remove them, regardless of the source, since they are always bad.
    – bracco23
    Jun 15, 2020 at 13:14
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    The problem is there are valid reasons for links. Links to documentation would be the most common. "I read here on mdn that ... " etc...
    – gman
    Jun 15, 2020 at 13:23
  • 1
    Hopping around old questions, link rot on documentation link is a problem (in particular on msdn documentation, but no one is unaffected). Having the question quote the documentation (with maybe the link added later) would still be beneficial.
    – bracco23
    Jun 15, 2020 at 13:25
  • The question form could explicitly say that, with maybe something on the line of "for now you cannot use links, so please copy all the necessaries information in the question. You can edit the question in 24hrs and add the relevant link if needed"
    – bracco23
    Jun 15, 2020 at 13:27
  • 2
    What about questions of the form "blah.blah.gov states that 'quote quote quote'. Does this …?" All the required information is provided in the quoted text, and the link makes it verifiable. This is how external links should be used, but the proposed rule would prevent it. Jun 15, 2020 at 13:40
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    My first impression was "impossible, sometimes links are unnecessary", but the more I thought about it the less sure I was about that. and after some more thinking I was unable to come up with a good reason that would absolutely necessitate a link since documentation can be quoted as already pointed out, and link rot being an ever existing issue. Although I do think i.stack.imgur should be an exception, as some problems/tags do benefit from having a visual of an issue.It also has the benefit of preventing promotion/spam. Maybe a rep. threshold above which the link restriction gets lifted.
    – Remy
    Jun 15, 2020 at 13:46
  • In that case the question would still work without a link, so maybe we can add the domain as simple text to provide context but without any link and then the full URL can be added later?
    – bracco23
    Jun 15, 2020 at 13:47
  • @Remy I will edit my answer to clarify that, imho, i.stack.imgur and other "unrottable" sources are to be accepted. I'm really focusing only on external resource rotting, which is the main reason i see behind having such questions closed.
    – bracco23
    Jun 15, 2020 at 13:49
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    There are a ton of sites in the web (including SO) where you can't simply copy/cite content without providing a link to the original.
    – BDL
    Jun 15, 2020 at 14:01
  • This would be absolutely awful. A good question very often should include links to the documentation of things you've tried. I sure as hell don't want to have a subpar question that requires busywork from readers for the first 24 hours.
    – Voo
    Jun 16, 2020 at 15:31
  • @Remy It's imo a much better idea to quote the core part that you focus on and give a link for context. Say this question here. I quote the part that explains the simple part and then claim that nowhere on the whole site does it mention what to do with multiple SPNs (which is due to the fact that that's how HTTP SPNs work - oh well). So should I now instead quote the whole page or just not give users the ability to actually check out the link themselves?
    – Voo
    Jun 16, 2020 at 15:35
  • I would imagine that people will still use links anyway with whatever obfuscation is necessary to bypass the filters Jun 16, 2020 at 17:31
2

I'm a pretty low rep user, and I mainly answer questions with the tag on them.

Lot's of these questions with are questions with literally no code, and are just asking for something to be done for them.

📎: "It looks like you're writing a question on . Here are 12 example minimal repos for you could use as a template create your own."

Yes, this is very helpful. When I monitor the tag, there are many questions that are asking something to be done, just in a different manner.

Also, we could have documentation within SO that users could look at.

For instance, I've seen lots of questions that require some elements to be appended to a listbox. If we could have something that says:

If you want to know how to append items to a listbox, please click here!

The link would actually lead to a repository of information. The only downside I see to this is that detecting when a user is actually asking this may be programmatically impossible, but I think it's a good idea.

Edit

There is another site, called repl.it that people link. Nowadays, you can even use with. I would suggest automatically blocking this as well.

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    FYI, stackoverflow.com/documentation It sounds like you may want to flag questions as a duplicate if users really are asking about the same thing in the tag you keep an eye on. (I'm in the camp that duplicates should be kept, but link to a single source, since sometimes people just use different wording to describe the same thing.) Jun 15, 2020 at 19:33
  • @JamesSkemp Yes, I agree with you. Sometimes people use different wording to describe the same thing. About the stackoverflow.com/documentation, it was stated in the meta post that it was a good idea, but not enough users were contributing. I wasn't here when all that happened, but an idea to encourage more contributors would be to reward reputation for every contribution. If you have just started contributing to the documentation, then your edit to the documentation must be approved. For every good contribution to the documentation, you would earn something like 5 reputation. This way, we can
    – 10 Rep
    Jun 15, 2020 at 19:36
  • encourage new users to contribute to documentation, because not enough contributors were the main reason the project was sun-downed.
    – 10 Rep
    Jun 15, 2020 at 19:37
  • IIRC there were reputation gains and badges; meta.stackoverflow.com/q/328607/11912 seems to confirm. I contributed to a few documents specific to a framework I used quite a bit, but I'm not sure the value was all that great. Especially four years later, it's so much easier and better to contribute to official docs (many have moved to Git/accepting PRs/inline edits). Documentation is also quite hard, so the number of users who will want to, and are good at, contributing to documentation is going to be significantly smaller than the SO user base. Jun 15, 2020 at 20:04
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    @James Skemp: Yes, too many questions of the right kind are closed. On the other hand, we don't want 6,000 questions about how to do hgh-resolution timing on Windows (better than the 16 ms tick counter (with unit 1 ms nonetheless)). Jun 15, 2020 at 20:06
  • @JamesSkemp I wasn't there when this happened, so could you tell me how much reputation was gained from edits to the documentation? I am suggesting that it would work similarly to the edit approve system.
    – 10 Rep
    Jun 15, 2020 at 20:06
  • @PeterMortensen Another example would be we don't want 40 questions on how to update a Listbox. A lot of these questions are framed differently, which really irritates me.
    – 10 Rep
    Jun 15, 2020 at 20:07
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    TheMaker I don't recall, but you should be able to search and find old posts on it. I think that was one of the biggest failures SO had, so I'd be extremely surprised if they tried to bring it back. PeterMortensen Yeah, there's a balance between 'you didn't do a search/ignored the recommended questions' and 'you're using different terminology,' and what would be involved in some white hat SEO tweaks in the first question/answer to cover common related searches. Jun 15, 2020 at 20:14
  • 1
    Here is another example: Variable is assigned but its value is never used. A duplicate probably exists from the first week of Stack Overflow's existence (nearly 11 years prior) Jun 15, 2020 at 22:46
  • Those are all the duplicates, and I only did one google search!
    – 10 Rep
    Jun 15, 2020 at 22:50
1

I think the issue really is that some (many) people do not evaluate their questions as to their answerability. Specifically I am referring to the people that genuinely have no clue what information needs to be provided in order for someone to answer their inquiry.

There are relatively few questions I've seen that are in the format of "the documentation (link) says X, how is this applied in case Y?". Questions like this are legitimate and usually don't need to be verbose, but any solution to banning links probably would throw out questions like this as collateral damage.

The new question form includes on the sidebar:

Include details about your goal

Describe expected and actual results

Include any error messages

For the people I am referring to, I think these bullet points don't mean much. I suspect trying to emphasize these bullet points in the form will not improve effectiveness since people will read them (if they read) but proceed to not make sense of them just as they now do.

My suggestion as to how to solve this is to make the individual items hyperlinkable to, somewhat like the ESR FAQ, so that clueful users can simply link to those items when flagging/commenting on the unanswerable questions.

So, take this page, make each heading hyperlinkable, and then hyperlink to each of those sections from the bullet points on the new question form (and/or make it easier to get to those sections from other parts of the site).

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