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TLDR;

The question promotion algorithm favours questions that are hastily asked first and then actively followed up, but neglects questions that are meticulously written and as a result received little activity.


I'm sure I'm not the only one to have frequently run into this issue on Stack Overflow. This is my most recent question that ran into this issue, given here so you would have some context. I feel confident in saying that this is a well-researched, well-written, but difficult question.

Sometimes I spend hours researching a problem I encountered and only then come to Stack Overflow to post a question. At this stage, my research has been pretty extensive, and I have tried almost every potential solution I would reasonably be expected to try. So I put down all the things I have tried in great detail, and post the question in one-fell-swoop. This is in-line with all the suggestions of "How do I ask a good question?" - sufficient research, specific title, problem introduced clearly, reproducible, tagged, and proof-read.

However this becomes exactly the poison of the question - it is so detailed and deeply-researched that people cannot even nitpick something to comment on. There are no obvious suggestions - all have been tried already; there are no issues with the questions itself - all guidelines have been followed; there is no additional information to be requested - all that's necessary has been included.

So with no comments, no edits, and no activity in general, the question just quickly dies. At the time of this post, the question I linked above has been posted for 10 days, and have received a grand total of 25 views, with no answers, no edits, no comments, and 1 upvote. I put a bounty on it, which seems to have done very little.

According to "What should I do if no one answers my question?",

Edit your question to provide status and progress updates. Document your own continued efforts to answer your question. This will naturally bump your question to the homepage and get more people interested in it.

But how can I? I have already spent hours on the problem, tried everything I can think of, and included all my progress (or lack thereof) so far in the original question post. Without even a suggestion from others, how can I be reasonably expected to make further progress?

So if I'm understanding this guideline correctly, isn't this the most effective way of posting a question?

  1. Deliberately ask a not-so-good question by leaving out details and things I've already tried
  2. Let people suggest the obvious, then little-by-little let out more information, even though I knew it wouldn't work from the very beginning because I have already tried it

So basically, with the current promotion algorithm, wasting time in this "pretending to be an idiot" game seems to be a necessary price I have to pay to just keep the question somewhat active. Closely following the question-asking guideline actually screws me, whereas the optimal strategy is actually to not follow the guidelines. Hopefully, you can see too how this is a problem.

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  • 176
    This is a well-defined and researched post, with a proper TLDR summary at the top, a good description of the problem, and a clear, answerable question at the end. Well done. ... I hope it gets an answer.
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:27
  • 22
    @yivi The home page of SO ranks questions based on most recent activity by default. However, well asked but difficult questions are likely to receive little activity. That is my whole point.
    – cyqsimon
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:42
  • 9
    @yivi I guess they mean bumping by editing. If I am not wrong, editing a question puts it on top of the active questions list, so frequent edits lead to more visibility.
    – janw
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:42
  • 16
    And for what is worth, I believe most active answerers do not use the homepage as a way to find questions to answer, but specific tag searches.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:46
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    @yivi Answer is I don't know. If I do I would not be posting this. I don't think I need a solution ready just to point out a problem.
    – cyqsimon
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:46
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    @yivi tag filtered pages rank by activity too.
    – cyqsimon
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:47
  • 9
    No, tag searches sort by whatever filter you use. E.g. I use generally use "newest", not "active". The homepage does not have sorting controls, tag searches do.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:49
  • 6
    You claim there is problem, I'm just telling you there might be not. E.g. frequent answerers would have found your question by searching by tag, not by using the homepage. And without at least a vague idea of what you propose could be done about the problem you perceive, this falls a bit flat, IMO. Particularly since some of the claims in your question are simply wrong.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:52
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    Following guidelines = question gets buried. Best strategy is ironically to not follow guidelines. Isn't that a problem?
    – cyqsimon
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:54
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    Your premise seems to be that "your question got buried" because it needed no edits and required no comments. Your premise may be wrong. Which make the whole problem analysis suspect.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 9:56
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    @yivi Now you're just trying to expose me for prejudice. My premise was never that my question is infallible. It is that it is good enough to a point where it is difficult to make comments and/or edits. The site encourages users to ask questions like this, but actually incentivises the opposite. That is the problem.
    – cyqsimon
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 10:00
  • 9
    I'm not trying to "expose you" or anything of the sort. I'm just discussing the merits of the question. Please, do not take this personally. My comments are aimed at helping you improve this question. I believe there is an interesting discussion to be had on the subject, but the question as it is is based on some false premises and lacks any discussion on how things could be different. My comments are asking you to revisit those points, and hopefully improve this question. Nothing more.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 10:02
  • 78
    SO fails to promote good content because a majority of the community think an upvote for effort is nice and welcoming. We can all start with down voting every question that isn't well researched and well written. That makes that the ones that deserve it stay visible for longer. This advice will not earn us points on reddit and twitter but it does address your problem in the long run.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 11:36
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    @Scratte there is still a huge difference in number of up votes vs down votes. That difference seems to be in contradiction with the falling quality on SO. I can't rescue the question at hand. I can only provide a direction we all need to go. I suggest we try to vote on the merit of the content in respect to future visitors. If that means every non-C++ question deserves a down vote, so be it. But at least vote.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 26, 2020 at 11:57
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    In general, I agree we could use more incentives for answering well-asked unanswered questions. Maybe we need a network-wide "stumpers" list for well-received but unanswered questions that have been hanging around for a while, limited to communities you're a member of. Maybe Community bot could offer a bounty? Maybe "stumpers" get featured on the home page? Maybe there are badges for answering questions flagged as stumpers by the system? That's just off the top of my head--I'm sure there are a thousand more ways ti could be done.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Aug 10, 2020 at 14:25

12 Answers 12

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I've run into this problem too. There is so much information on SO that I tend to answer my own questions 99% of the time. Google is just a proxy search engine for Stack Overflow. I'm not a particularly good programmer. I'm just good at googling.

But when I do come across a problem I cannot solve with some Google-fu, boy is it a gnarly problem. I'm basically the only person on planet Earth who A) came across this; or B) actually wants to solve it.

The question is about such a niche problem that few people can answer it. As a result, your question received little attention. It requires some heavy duty debugging, that frankly you are the only one qualified to do.

I've answered a few questions in my day. I have bookmarked specific tag filters that reflect my interests and expertise. I also look for the newest questions. Why? I figure an old question with no answers has been seen by other knowledgeable members and requires a big investment in time for the measly 15 fake Internet points I'll earn from finding the answer (25 if you up-vote my answer). And because you and I are literally the only people in the English-speaking world that cares about the question, my answer will receive no more upvotes.

I hate to say it, but it is neither a problem nor answer most people can relate to, and as much as I would like to think I am altruistic and do this out of the goodness of my heart, I do appreciate the fake Internet points.

The payoff isn't worth the time.

I actually hate that I feel this way. I feel selfish. But I've had the same problem with some of my questions, and I didn't get any answers until I offered a significant bounty. I've found offering a 500+ point bounty is a good way to land someone of equal expertise. Now the payoff in fake Internet points is worth them investing some time in the problem. And I've spent a lot of time earning my 12,000+ reputation points, 15 and 25 points a time. Why not use that hard earned reputation as a form of capital I can draw from when I have a really gnarly problem?

Your current bounty of 50 reputation just isn't a big enough payoff. You've got a tough, specific problem. Bump that bounty up to 100+ points and I bet you'll get some attention. At the time of this writing you have 448 reputation points. Not much to barter with, but not nothing either. You have earned some capital on SO. Spend it to get some help.

It sure beats spending the US$200+/hour price of a good consultant.

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    Yeah, once a question is more than a day or two old (and hasn't been answered, which means it's not low-hanging fruit), large bounties are pretty much the only thing I expect to draw experts' attention. It's pretty unlikely anyone's going to bother otherwise.
    – Snow
    Commented Apr 28, 2020 at 0:04
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    "I'm not a particularly good programmer. I'm just good at googling." - ...you meet the criteria to be a good programmer right there.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:13
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    "Now the payoff in fake Internet points is worth them investing some time in the problem." I 100% believe this statement is true and still I fail to understand it really. Thanks for this wonderful answer. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 14:40
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    I usually assume my answer will go without any internet points at all. Especially when answering old Questions. But I don't answer them for the points anymore. I answer them because I want to know the answer, and once I know it, I might as well post it.
    – Scratte
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 15:11
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    "There is so much information on SO that I tend to answer my own questions 99% of the time." Sometimes more literally: "Wow this person from 5 years ago had exactly the same question that I have, I wonder wh... oh."
    – endolith
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 6:18
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    I think it's important to realize that reputation is a popularity contest. I have poured my soul in some of my answers: diving into the specifications, demonstrating the effects with code, tying it with the OP's particular issue... but the question was so gnarly to begin with that nobody bothered reading it and therefore I received maybe 10 or 15 points, 25 at most. On the other hand, I've written one-liners to easy questions that scored over a 1000 upvotes: easy questions are relatable, everybody can judge whether the answer matches... Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 7:14
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    Even to someone who doesn't care about fake Internet points, a bounty is still attractive. Expert answerers are on Stack Overflow for interesting questions, and a bounty indicates a problem that is at least not so trivial as to be solved by random passers-by. My Stack Overflow "homepage" is a custom tag search on some low-traffic tags I frequent, so I rarely see any bounties; when I do, they're usually worth checking out.
    – amalloy
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 8:24
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    Personally I find bountied questions to more often than not be the worst questions around. They're often poorly researched or poorly debugged. Everyone seems to think their own problem is somehow more important or more complex because they can't figure it out, and reinforce that idea by the fact that their post isn't getting attention.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 14:11
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    It requires some heavy duty debugging This, I feel, is a major feature of low-engagement questions, whether they are well written and presented or not. Most nasty programming problems usually end up just needing a good honest debug session. Answering these questions is difficult because a useful answer is more about teaching OP how to debug rather than the actual problem itself, which drives the question into tutorial territory requiring a long-form answer only loosely related to the question. These could probably all be closed as dupe if we had a good how-to-debug canonical.
    – J...
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 19:36
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    @J... It's not so much the OP needs to learn how to debug, it's that the problem is so deeply rooted that even experienced developers cannot see how to debug the problem. The "good honest debug session" you are talking about is best done as a pair programming session, or screen-sharing. The OP needs another set of eyes, but maybe a Q&A post on the Web is not the best tool in this case. Sometimes you've tried everything else (including the good, honest debug session) and you are just plain stuck. Basically a large bounty on a question is the "Hail Marry" of programming. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 19:49
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    @GregBurghardt Regardless, SO is not a good platform for collaborative pair-programming, or anything of the sort, so well-constructed or not, deep esoteric problems rooted in tangled production code are probably not a good fit at all on SO.
    – J...
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 19:56
  • 2
    Regarding larger bounties, this! I've almost never lost rep on a bounty. The bounty promotes the question enough to get it new upvotes and (this is an unwanted effect but works to your advantage) bumps it whenever someone posts a low-quality answer hoping you'll award them the bounty, causing more people to see it again. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 20:00
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    IMHO: if you only answer questions for the rep, you're in for a bad time.
    – Julia
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 20:56
  • 1
    I strongly disagree with this answer's unsubstantiated claim that the asker's question requires heavy-duty debugging.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 9:07
  • 3
    Can we convert every 500 fake internet points into a Big Mac at McDonald so that it is no longer "fake"? Stack Exchange should put some of the advertising dollars that they earn with thousands of free workers to good use. Since McDonald is worldwide, it should work. :) Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 12:19
43

The problem complained about is that a complex question (as described) isn't visible enough to reach the few people who might be able to answer it properly. That's the core issue, and that is not a voting issue. Voting is about how popular a question is. With popularity there comes visibility, but that is not the only way to get the desired visibility.

One way to get more visibility is the mentioned bumping which happens when the question gets edited or answered. Another is, of course, putting large bounties on such questions.

But actually, many people will find a well-researched and complicated question rather boring. Making such a question more visible will bore a lot of people. One needs to be an expert by pure chance in the specific field of exactly this question to find it entertaining. And/or one needs to be motivated enough to follow all the research presented in the question prior to do even more research in order to maybe solve it. This reduces the amount of people interested in such a question significantly.

The problem is not SO in this case. It's an inherent problem with the question at hand itself. SO can only try to work against that problem by improving the visibility in order to give an incentive to produce well-researched questions, even if they might be less attractive, as explained above. I'm not sure this is a good idea in general because it would bombard the normal user of SO more with stuff they don't find interesting.

The point seems to be not to raise general visibility for these kind of questions, but to connect them to the best matching readers.

So I could imagine SO introducing some system of

  1. identifying such questions and
  2. making them available in the search criteria.

Just brainstorming now, but maybe a specific tag (EDIT: or a similar thing which should not be set by the asker) could be used for such questions like well-researched, complex or expert-question or similar. Then the people who really are into such questions could search for them especially (and people who tend to find them boring could filter them out).

Also, a higher reward for answering such a question could be given out. The increment of the reward could also depend on how many people think this is such an expert question.

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    I like the general idea behind tagging these sorts of questions, but I don't think the asker should be responsible for this. How many questions will I need to wade through like fix 'syntax error, expected ;' (tagged: expert-question)? Maybe a moderator like system where people nominate a question as such? Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 11:14
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    @GregBurghardt Yes, the tag I proposed is different in this aspect, correct. I just called it a tag in brainstorming mode. Actually, I think it rather is a new value for each question which can be influenced by other people, maybe moderators, maybe high-scored users or similar.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 11:29
  • 3
    Answerers can’t be responsible for it either, if it means they would then get anything for answering it. The bounty system exists for this purpose.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 12:45
  • @KevinB Correct, a way to gain rep by one's own actions should not be invented to avoid giving an incentive to manipulate each question. But I think the bounty system has a different purpose; it is to be used if the asker (and only them) wants to raise the visibility of a question, typically because they need of working answer for individual reasons. This new proposed system on the other hand would improve SO by a new feature in which also answerers and pure readers can shift the visibility to a special interest group for social reasons.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:26
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    eh, not exactly, people use bounties all the time on questions they didn't ask for the explicit reason of reigniting interest in finding an answer for it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:27
  • @KevinB So in this case I think we could use one of many ways to avoid the bad incentive you mention: ① Let only moderators do this kind of voting, ② Raise only the accepted answer reward (not the upvote reward), ③ Take a rep-point from anybody who does this kind of upvote (a kind of micro-bounty system), ④ give such a reward only to people who didn't do this kind of upvote themselves, and probably some more.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:30
  • @KevinB Yes, they use bounties on other people's questions if they are interested the answer to this question (I dare assume for individual reasons, mostly). It doesn't matter that they didn't ask the question themselves.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:31
  • It's always an individual reason. Even if they intended to answer it themselves, a bounty on the question increases the eyeballs, and therefore votes, that pass through the question and its answers. The bounty system is essentially a "paid" ad, only the payment is the made up currency we call rep.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:33
  • @KevinB And the proposed system is rather a way to specify (by many) that this question is of a specific kind, namely this kind expert-question. It can also turn people away (the noobs) as well as raise the interest of the experts.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:35
  • who... is the many though? How do you get people to, well, see, these super complex (but otherwise no different than poorly researched/debugged questions) in front of people such that they can... "flag" them as special/complex? who does this serve? How does it help build a knowledgebase of useful questions and answers?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:37
  • @KevinB I don't want to answer the question who is supposed to vote a question to be an expert-question any more precisely than I already did because it's not part of my proposal. I am sure that this next question you raise can also be answered, though. Some ideas were already given but I didn't think them through to a point where I have made up my mind which would be the best solution.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:41
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    @KevinB I see. Please take my proposal primarily as »let's have a new value for questions which states how expert-level this question is«. The question on how to determine this value is a different one (but I think answerable). I could imagine community-driven mechanisms (while ruling out abuse), but also admin-driven ways like flag-reactions, or even automatic aspects (like length, tl;dr at the beginning, structuring, a lack of points to discuss, just brainstorming again).
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:53
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    @KevinB »The people who can see that it's a "complex" question are the same people who can answer it.« Naah. I've seen a lot of such questions which I clearly identified as being well-researched and complex and where I understood that diving into that topic would be time-consuming as hell. And of course I could not answer them.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 18:57
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    Instead of only allowing mods to apply these tags, allow gold badge holders in a specific language to do so. They're already allowed to close questions in that tag as they're considered experts there.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 9:02
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    Yes, because gold badge holders would never self serve
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 15:13
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SO has too much chaff, because it is used as level 1 tech support by the entire internet. Good questions frequently simply get lost.

I think this is the desired state of SO Inc., because it gets them more eyeballs. Maybe they don't necessarily want the chaff but they want eyeballs more than quality content. So, eyeballs they do get and quality suffers.

I primarily watch one tag, and have been looking at it almost every day for the last 6 months. I'd say most days there isn't a single question that I come across under this tag that 1) is interesting, 2) isn't covered by documentation, 3) has had appropriate research done, 4) that is in my field of knowledge. There are, let's say, one or two questions per day that I answer that are decent (meet some of these qualifications but not all). And there are hundreds of questions posted daily that I could probably technically answer (after playing 20 questions with each author to figure out their problem, get the diagnostics out of them, etc. etc.).

Given this volume of junk questions, it's no surprise that quality questions are drowned out by the noise. I do also expect the experts to be leaving for higher signal to noise ratio forums. I don't mind going through the junk as long as I am stuck at home with the current health situation but I assume that most questions are a time sink rather than actual problems that are worth solving.

On the flip side, if I invest time into answering a question, chances are I won't be able to find this answer later because there is so much noise to go through. What, then, is the point of putting in the effort to answer difficult questions?

How to fix? Prioritize quality and make it easier to get rid of chaff:

  • Allow suggesting questions without accepted answers as duplicates.
  • Make it easier to mark questions as duplicates (reduce # of clicks needed).
  • Implement additional checks when asking questions following the examples here:
    • "Your question body has no question marks. This is a site for questions & answers and you should be asking a question. Are you sure your post contains a question that someone can answer?"
    • "Your question contains no external links. This is a site for questions & answers about software and most software comes with documentation. Is there documentation covering the thing you are asking about? If so please add appropriate links and/or quotes to the question so that potential responders know what you are talking about and can verify your assumptions."
    • Etc.
  • Add/reinstate flag reason "no research effort demonstrated", allow questions to be closed with this reason.
  • Add/reinstate flag reason "question is asking how to build a complete program/subsystem/implementation of a complex process which is inappropriate for this site due to there being too many variations on how to do so".
  • Improve the moderation UI. Some of the review types have overlays that take up half the screen, you can't see the content you are reviewing.

As a somewhat usable quick fix, make sure you get the tags right especially if you can use more specific tags that might have less volume overall.

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    Perhaps also "5) Isn't a duplicate."? Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 12:43
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    Re "after playing 20 questions": Perhaps make it more clear that it takes place in comments (so as not to be confused with Stack Overflow questions proper)? Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 12:45
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I often come into the same problem. I do my research on my own for hours (if not days because some topics are real time-intense) and pack it all into the question what I've found so far.

The problem, as I got the impression, is then that potential answerers feel afraid from that whole pack of information and hinder themselves to maybe give an answer to something which is already known by the OP or wasn't asked for (which maybe isn't true).

Some users are even just too lazy to read through a question and feel exhausted before even reading the post entirely (as they need to do to give an answer). They end up just skipping the question.

That is very very annoying because a good question should be able to be answered well, but I often see that hilarious ugly questions without literally any research effort get answered (as well as upvoted) very well and elaborate questions don't.

Summary is, sad but true, that I also will play the idiot's game too as you said "pretending to be an idiot" in the future more to get more and even more important informative and helpful answers by leaving some things out I tried and understood so far intentionally, if things doesn't change.

The SO guidelines can't prevent that because the problem is primarily on the user side and indeed it's horrible to need to so, but if it only work that way, I have to go that way...

A way to solve this could be to recognize elaborate questions and as proposed give these answers automatically more publicity and/or give kind of trophies by answering such, f.e. more rep or privileges or badges.

Of course many users will say that to detect an elaborate answer and such features will be hard to implement, but I see this as only way around and to restore the faith in writing elaborate questions.

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    ⁺¹ for proposing to reward answering especially elaborate questions which are therefore hard to answer. But the problem of the question above remains: How can we change the automatic SO behavior so that the elaborate hard to answer questions are more obvious? Currently they aren't reaching many people, that's the point.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 9:55
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    the examples you're showing here are all quite old and back then it seems to have worked out well, but recently I more often see such questions down- and close voted in no itme. Sometimes the question is downvoted and closed as a dup, but get's a quick answer before getting closed and then answer gets some upvotes. Not sure if the idiots game is the way forward
    – jps
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 10:01
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    @jps I've updated the list with recent examples. Some of them got closed but before they had sufficient answers and an unbelievable amount of upvotes. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 14:46
  • @RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio I get your point but there seem to be differences in the various tags, I also find it hard to predict, which question will get many upvotes and which one will be down- and closevoted. But for sure, short questions get at least more attention in one way or the other.
    – jps
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 15:04
  • @jps Deleted the prediction part regarding voting. Maybe I dived a little too deep discussing about voting but I think it is constructive to illustrate and discuss about it here as it is however relevant in showing the contrast to a question with elaborate research effort. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 15:14
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    I 100% agree with your analysis. In my opinion the community that has forgot the value in upvoting good questions. Not only those I understand, not only those asking something I would like to know as well. Upvoting them just because they are well written questions about a advanced topics. This lack of upvotes-to-questions is the root of the problem, as great questions are often 0-scored, at the same level as mediocre but answerable questions. As a paradox, bad trivial questions are upvoted just to make the OP reach the 15rep threshold so-they-can-upvote-my-answer. [continued] Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 20:21
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    Having these complex question with score 5-7 rather than 0 would make A LOT of difference, as unanswered questions with good scores are quite popular and are often visited by experts. In order to encourage people to answer, there could be a "popular answers showcase" to say "Hey guys, come to see! A question with score X that has been unanswered for Y months has now an accepted answer!". This could attract visitors gathering the deserved upvotes for the expert who answered too. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 20:29
  • @RobertoCaboni maybe... because said questions with a score of 5-7 are actually good questions, as opposed to the ones with 0?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 19:31
  • 1
    @KevinB what I am trying to assert is that those good question will hardly get a score > 0. And they will be lost in the ocean of real 0-score questions (forn example : decently written debugging questions). Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 19:36
  • 1
    Right... but who's saying said questions are good? where's all the examples? All i see is people claiming their own questions are good. If they were truly good, useful, interesting questions, they'd be getting attention. If not directly, then when the OP applies a bounty.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 19:37
  • Paying for said additional attention with rep preserves this added attention for the people who most want it, and ideally for the questions that most deserve it. Making it something that can be just given away for free by high rep, gold badge holders, or the op's themselves is simply going to be used by everyone who doesn't get an answer quickly because everyone who asks a question thinks they have a good question/complex problem and have done their research..
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 19:48
  • 1
    @KevinB I'm not going to search for examples right now. I'll offer the opposite example: one-line-questions asked in 2008-20013 scoring 250+. What I suggest is going back to an open minded criteria. Nowadays most basic things have been asked; it is difficult to ask questions like this one. If that question can score 188, most question should have score >20. What I suggest is recovering the upvote attitude this community seem to have had in its first five years. Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 19:56
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    Those questions are useful to more people. They deserve said attention.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 19:56
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    The whole point of this network is to generate QA pairs that are useful. The entire system is designed around it. If a question gets bypassed because it's unclear, or it's some niche thing noone else has encountered or understands, it's by definition not as useful as that one liner question. It won't and shouldn't receive the same attention. This isn't a QA service or helpdesk.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 19:59
  • 2
    People are here helping other people with their problems voluntarily. That people decide to generally deal with the lower hanging fruit isn't SO's fault or problem. It would only be a problem if people seeking such questions can't find them (which would be an entirely different problem than "promoting" said questions properly.)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 20:08
10

"The home page of SO ranks questions based on most recent activity by default. However, well asked but difficult questions are likely to receive little activity."

Don't put much hope on the home page. Even if a difficult question gets some activity, it doesn't mean somebody with relevant knowledge will post an answer. There are a lot of other conditions: 1. they have to be online 2. they have to browse the Stack Overflow home page 3. they have to have time to investigate a complex issue and write a detailed answer 4. they have to have motivation to do p.3 considering that the maximum reward for their effort is 25 points (not guaranteed).

I never browsed the home page on purpose, because it will likely contain too many questions in tags where I'm not skilled.

When I answered questions I used to browse them by tag, and read the "Newest", "Bountied", and "Unanswered" tabs.

In my opinion "Bountied" and "Unanswered" are more likely to draw people, who have the necessary skills, time resources, and motivation to answer complex question.

I once had a complex question, but it went unanswered. Fortunately, I managed to find my own solution. More than a year later I started a bounty and - wow, got two solutions! I doubt the home page had any effect there. The bounty did. Also one person who answered it was not even registered on Stack Overflow when I asked the question.

So, the moral: it is not the lack of promotion; it is the lack of motivated experts.

1
  • It still may be a lack of precision in the promotion. It takes some time to sort through all the newest questions in the interesting tags to find and upvote the interesting ones. I can't even downvote all the bad ones I see. The unanswered or feature list is okay, but I cannot really exclude that there are unanswered good questions of score zero or close to zero that I have never seen. Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 21:20
4

You very well describe, how the system rewards those most that do not ask a perfect question but strive to improve it, by bumping the question with every comment or edit. I believe this was introduced with good faith, i.e. rewarding good questions that got better with every edit or comment. Unfortunately it also rewards bad questions that do not get better and doesn't reward perfect questions that are perfect already as they are after their creation. And there are really a lot of not very good questions asked every day.

We could just abolish the whole bumping thing, then every question would be treated equally in some regard but difficult to answer questions that are on-topic would still find it more difficult to get an answer because there are less people that can answer it. And we would have lost that rewarding of an improved question by bumping thing.

Maybe there could be an incentive of posting really well-researched and well-written questions while having an incentive of improving not so well-researched and/or not so well-written questions at the same time? Does it have to be a one thing or the other or can both exist at the same time? If yes, you would not have to "play being an idiot". If no, then indeed you are right and leaving things out initially on purpose while gradually improving would be the most successful strategy. I would find it very hard to morally condemn gaming of the system, especially because it would have the purpose of getting more of the perfectly posed questions to be answered, which is a good thing. If nothing else changes, this would be definitely an option.

But we could change the rules. For example, we could automatically bump well-received (score >= 0), unanswered questions even without an edit or without a comment from time to time, if the number of views is lower than that of peer questions that got edits and comments.

The score ultimately tells us something about the quality of a question and in order to get a score, a question would need sufficient views. We could assume that a question without edits or comments is already perfect as it is and take this as hint that it should be seen by more people in order to obtain a score (at least) and maybe an answer.

Now I cannot guarantee you an answer to difficult questions and it's only natural that more difficult questions would need more knowledgeable answerers, which are willing to devote time to answer that question. Answerers may even face a dilemma: should they answer a couple of easy to answer questions or a single difficult to answer question? What would be the more useful thing to do? Surely there is a trade-off somewhere and people would need to gauge the general interest of getting an answer to a difficult question. Some difficult questions might be very specialized and the solution might only be beneficial to a few people.

And you have the problem of getting the difficult question in front of the people who can actually answer them. All this while lots of low quality questions waste lots of precious answerers time simply by the need to read/vote/comment on them.

It therefore makes sense to somehow define a difficulty of a question as a measure as well as a prowess of an answerer and to try to match both as good as possible as a question filter (this matching could be optional). Both would probably be tag dependent.

The prowess of the answerer could be deducted from the difficulty of the questions that he/she has successfully answered in the past. It could even be just the tag score.

The difficulty of a question could be voted on (easy, medium, hard or beginner, advanced, expert) by other users and partly also deducted from the estimated difficulties of other questions asked by the same user (it's more likely a user will ask questions of similar difficulty). The default difficulty could be easy, there are less medium and even less hard questions to be expected, I think.

If we would decide that answering of difficult questions is more valuable than answering of easier questions, we could even use the gamification and for example make the reputation reward dependent on the difficulty of the question, reflecting that more difficult to answer questions need more time to be answered on average. But that would have its own problems like how to avoid abuse or how to reliably estimate the difficulty and what to do if the difficulty changes by edits, ...

To summarize:

You are completely right. Currently, mimicking the gradually improving type of asking a question gives you the most views and probably also highest chance for an answer.

But we could change things. We could bump questions without edits or comments but also without a negative score or many views too and we could vote on the difficulty of questions and optionally try to match them with the answerers ability.

And if the difficulty of a question can be estimated reliably, we could even decide to make the reward dependent on the difficulty. But that would require much more discussions before.

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  • 1
    There is already a score used for deciding on putting a question in the triage queue. Perhaps the highest values of that score could be used? Though the score may not be designed for that. Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 12:40
  • @Adriaan Maybe this could be extended to score = 0 and take the number of views into account too additionally to the time. Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:16
  • 2
    There already is an automated bumping question in place, but AFAIK that bumps everything with score>0, no accepted answer and older than some predefined time. (Sorry to mess up the linking; missed an essential part in my previous comment)
    – Adriaan
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:23
0

This was exactly my frustration with a few questions over the years. As already explained in other answers SO does not provide a mechanism to make these questions "featured", as they address a narrow audience to get enough views and votes to be promoted as "hot questions".

My strategy was quite simple in these cases. Wait 2-3 days and bounty with 100+ points. In more than 80% I got a good answer or at least a good workaround.

Side note: Congratulations for writing such good questions. There are not many who spend the time and effort to do so.

P.S. I know that there are some high reputation users that offer bounties for good questions, but I don't know any to quickly find them (they typically convey this information in their profile).

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    I agree about adding a bounty, but no need to offer 100+ points, especially since the OP has less than 1000 points. I've offered lots of bounties of all sizes and 50 points gets about the same amount of response that 100 or 200 does. If a 50 point bounty doesn't solve it then double the bounty the next week, and the next.
    – Suragch
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 2:05
  • 2
    I don't follow what your point is. Bounties are the mechanism to get questions "featured" and viewed. Questions which only address a narrow audience seem by definition not "hot questions". Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 11:14
  • @MisterMiyagi the first paragraph is only an explanation for the why such questions receive little attention. Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 11:19
-2

Agreed entirely, especially on "algorithm favours questions that are hastily asked first and then actively followed up". Except the "algorithm" here isn't a script, but humans.

I, too, am a part of the problem; unless I'm specifically on for answering questions (rare), I'm quick to back out of long, detailed, code-ridden questions. In my own questions, if I must include detail, I ensure to separate the question's "purpose" and its supplemental information into clearly titled sections (example).

Organizing won't cut total length, however. To this end, I figured a thing that would, at the least, make me likelier to read longer posts: allow collapsing code. This is already a feature via "JavaScript/HTML/CSS snippet" - but what of other languages?

Along reducing the "length intimidation" factor, it can encourage better organizing; many questions read like essays: sentences followed by code, followed by bullets, then more code, more sentences - making it harder to get the gist without reading it whole.

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    Honestly, I'm with you. Even if it's something I can reasonably help with, the length factor is definitely something to recon with. I'm not sure what the best course of action is with this, whether collapsing code blocks or otherwise, but it's still something I can anecdotally confirm affects whether I attack a given question or not.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 22:08
  • 1
    As a counter-point, however, there might be a good argument that giant blocks of code is rarely actually required in a question... and as such, that otherwise good questions could benefit from some code editing to shorten their examples to only what's really required. Giant debugging challenges admittedly often (some might argue always) make poor questions.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 22:10
  • 3
    I don't think this will solve anything; if code is so large it needs collapsing... it probably isn't a good question to begin with but rather a "here's my entire code, it doesn't work, you figure it out for me" work order.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 9:17
  • @Gimby That may vary by tags; in machine learning questions (e.g. keras, tensorflow tags), not including long code for many debugging problems yields an unanswerable question. I've noticed time and again users omitting said code, only to be asked for it in comments, then including it - and that working out far better than them including everything from the beginning (just as this meta question suggests). Commented Aug 13, 2020 at 10:34
-6

Don't wait until you can write a super deep question shooting down all the things you already tried before you post it on SO. This ensures that the scope of interest for the question will only be people who already ruled out exactly the same things you did. Don't post a completely unresearched question, but let SO users do some digging in parallel with you once you have enough to make a legitimate question. Their involvement will help keep the question alive as you further tune it and reply to comments/answers about whether they solve your problem, and they might even have a great idea you haven't thought of precisely because their thinking isn't clouded by "well, OP already tried all that stuff and it didn't work so this must be a really really hard problem". Their answers, even if they don't solve your problem, can also make the question more useful to others in the future who might hit outwardly identical problems that their answers do solve.

On top of that, make good use of bounties once it becomes clear that you're not getting enough engagement without one. I don't think I've ever lost rep on a bounty, and I usually use the large ones. The bounty attracts enough new engagement, both directly by bounty listings and indirectly (this is a rather bad systemic effect, but works to your advantage) by attracting low-quality answers from users who just want the rep, thereby bumping your question, that you tend to make back all the rep you lost and more, as long as your question is decent.

1
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    "..let SO users do some digging in parallel with you.." But isn't this a waste of time for both sides, which is done on purpose? Why not presenting all the available research at once? Good comments could still follow if only enough people would see the question. I don't mean to wait forever with asking, but investing a reasonable amount of time and presenting all the results at once sounds like in theory it should be the most reasonable thing, shouldn't it? Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 12:02
-8

Another remedy is to explicitly reward quality: have moderators upvote posts, solely for research effort and question clarity.

We have an entire task force for closing questions - mods, gold badgers, review queue - but that's all for dealing with "undesirables"; what of the desirables? If not the mods, perhaps a review queue:

  1. Reader sees long question
  2. No wish to read fully to understand whether it's worth upvoting, but figures it has potential
  3. Flags question for "quality review"
  4. Users watching the question's tags, or having silver+ badges in, see the question in the queue
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  • 9
    I think we have enough review queues as it is.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 10:56
  • 11
    I like where this is coming from. Not sure about implementing something like this, but it'll be nice if SO can shift focus from disincentivizing poor questions to incentivizing good questions. Maybe this doesn't even need a queue. Upvotes from tag-badge holders could, for instance, bump a question's quality rating. And the home page could take quality rating into consideration when showing questions... just a thought.
    – galdin
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 11:06
  • "have moderators upvote posts" - unclear what a "moderator" is here. Should we assume you mean site user, since we're basically all moderators? You can't possibly mean diamond moderators, there are not nearly enough of those assimilated into the collective to make any kind of a dent. Reviewing quality takes domain knowledge to even further subdivide that small pool.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 13:40
  • 2
    I feel like the general idea of giving more weight to experienced users' rating is good. However, the real question then is how to actually do that without just shifting the problem. A review queue just does not fit – close-votes and such are based on formal characteristics, not quality. SO's voting is based on popularity/quantity, not expertise/quality – which is precisely what this question is about, by the way. There are lots of tags (e.g. python) where having a silver/gold batch is no statement of quality at all. Boosting the importance of such users might just increase the problem. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 14:42
  • @Gimby I did mean them, and you're right - hence why I proposed the queue to lift the burden. Perhaps we could have an entirely separate set of moderators, exclusively for quality review - but that seems fetched at this point. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 14:59
  • 2
    @MisterMiyagi Fair points, but the idea is "something better than nothing" - and currently there's precisely nothing systematic in place to reward question quality. A Python gold badger yesterday marked a Keras question as duplicate, and the duplicate was barely relevant - so the current close system isn't perfect either. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 15:01
  • 1
    I wrote in my comments to RobertS answer (have a look at them) before reading this answer: I would have offered a +10 upthumb if I could, as the lack of upvotes is exactly the root of the problem. I've seen a lot of emphasis to the importance of downvotes, lately, and it seems that the importance of upvotes (especially on questions) has been forgotten. As far as I can see looking to ancient questions it was different in the past: questions used to receive a lot of upvotes. Were they great quality questions? Not at all! Nowadays many of them would be closed in a couple of minutes.. Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 20:49
  • 1
    This would never work. Just take a look at Triage, where absolute dumpster fires of questions still get heaps of "seems fine" votes, sometimes from 10k+ users. Everything more complex than a typo would be rated high quality. And should that not be the natural outcome, then expect it to be the mandated outcome by SO after the askers complain on twitter that it's so unwelcoming that their garbage question isn't seen as high quality...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 8:52
  • @l4mpi Admittedly I know next to nothing about Triage as I don't partake in it, so the practical side of my specific suggestion is unknown to me - but the idea stands; how to reward explicitly should be its own matter. Commented Aug 13, 2020 at 10:31
  • 1
    Given how few people are willing to do reviews, even when they are above 10k, a new review queue doesn't sound like a good idea.
    – BDL
    Commented Aug 13, 2020 at 11:23
-9

If this question is as... rare, as you indicate it is or may be... is there any value in it existing for future users? Will someone who has this problem come up with the same question, similar title, such that they'd be able to find it?

If not... then there's not much reason to reward its posting or being answered. Stack Overflow isn't a help desk; it's a repository of useful questions for future users to find/consume. If the question/answer's likelihood of helping another person is nil... it doesn't have much value here.

The root of the problem here is not enough signal. Voting and views are all Stack Overflow has to determine what needs to be shown to people. If the question is uninteresting to most people, it will receive little of either. How can Stack Overflow possibly identify these? We can’t rely on the OP giving their question a “this is hard” tag, as they’re too likely to abuse it. They already have the ability to bounty it, which both rewards answerers and improves its visibility. Somehow... identifying it and then showing it to people who have ticked a box or clicked a tag is already supported by the bounty system. Nothing Stack Overflow could do would fix this problem; they need us to identify it... which we can already do with bounties and votes.

The bottom line is these questions aren’t useful and should be treated as such.

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    I feel there are a couple issues with this stance. 1) There is often great benefit that comes out of solving complex problems, especially in the plethora of smaller problems that get solved along the way, even if that benefit is less direct and obvious. 2) If experts can't ask expert questions on Stack Overflow because it's "not useful to the community," then there will be no more experts on Stack Overflow. Their wisdom, effort, and problem solving is no doubt a solid reason why SO is still around and a popular tool to this day, and if they have little to gain by staying, they likely won't.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Aug 10, 2020 at 21:16
  • 1
    well, no, absolutely agree with both points... it's just that those benefits are only felt by the few people involved. If it turns out to be something that IS useful to many, it wouldn't be one of the questions this question is referring to as it'd be receiving upvotes.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 10, 2020 at 21:17
  • 4
    Content on SO is scored based on how many people find it useful (and in some cases interesting, unfortunately), not on how challenging, or hidden or weird the question is, or how much fun the answerer has solving it. There are far more developers asking questions on the lower end of the... programming ability scale than the higher-end, therefore easier simpler questions are always the ones that are more useful and therefore garner more votes/attention.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 10, 2020 at 21:22
  • 5
    "Will someone who has this problem come up with the same question, similar title, such that they'd be able to find it?" - an extremely well documented and comprehensive question+answer to an obscure problem should be comparatively easy to find, as there's not going to be many other relevant results for whatever search queries you try. Looking at the specific question that prompted this discussion, I can't see how someone with the same problem wouldn't find the question simply by searching the error message with one or two other keywords.
    – Sellyme
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 1:15
  • And if it happens, maybe they'll upvote it. If not... we don't need to somehow "fix" the system to accommodate it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 1:16
  • 2
    The main question wasn't about how well such a complex question gets scored, but how well it is spread in order to reach the few people who might be able to answer it. We seem to mix the two aspects here. Scoring might be a way to produce spreading but it's definitely not the only one and I have the feeling that OP is more interested in the spreading because that raises the probability to receive a solution to their original problem.
    – Alfe
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 10:10
  • 2
    All the low hanging fruit at this point is probably gone, so I think at this point you're either posting something on a new (maybe niche) language / tech, posting a duplicate, or posting something that's too hard/niche to answer. It kinda just comes down to luck, too.
    – jrh
    Commented Aug 11, 2020 at 22:06
  • 1
    Also my comment above shouldn't be read as an endorsement (i.e., "this is how SO should work"), but it is what Jeff and Joel created (despite their repeated denials), it's a side effect of a reddit voting system and I'm sure they know it deep down. IMO we should stop telling new users to research their problem heavily before posting, 99% of the time it's setting people up for failure. The real answer is "don't post questions, if it isn't already here we don't want it" but nobody wants to hear that (that'd stop signups). It's not a pleasant end for everyone but it's the truth.
    – jrh
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 18:48
  • Or to put it a different way, voting system + 11 years = very low chance of a new question being successful; it has to be popular AND never seen before by anyone's definition of "seen before". Found something that's not on the site? It's not about documenting, it's about marketing, how many eyeballs will your problem attract? It's unfortunate because hard to find solutions are the most valuable, and a "skill ceiling" is boring for established users, but it's self-evident that the content won't get votes.
    – jrh
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 18:56
  • Endgame is SO is yet another "basics blog" site covering "new hotness" tech shallowly, the hard to find stuff remains in books and hidden in specs comprehensible only by language designers, and we don't really grow as a profession. The "how to split a string in language X" gets 1000 votes (which has been covered in one million other places), SO users complain about boring homework questions but a totally different setup is needed to reward users for posting things like "what is this obscure problem in this obscure library in this obscure scenario"; I wish SO was that, it isn't.
    – jrh
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 19:02
-10

Stack Overflow's role in the programming profession is not a The X-Files repository of obscure problems that no one can find the answers to. Rather, it is a repository of rated information that is often readily accessible externally.

Product "Reviews/ratings" are what have driven the success of companies like Amazon, and are generally what drives online consumer decisions in the 21st century. Stack Overflow is really just "rated" information for programming (which is especially useful since there are often multiple ways of solving any given problem in programming).

I don't see the problem with this unless the expectation is otherwise.

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    The low signal-to-noise ratio often makes it difficult, too slow, or nearly impossible to find the required information using the existing content on Stack Overflow to find solutions during actual development (e.g., can NUnit be used on Linux under .NET Core, and if so, how can it be installed (yes, it can. And none of it is hardly documented anywhere)). Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 12:56
  • 1
    I didn't downvote, but I think at some point there was a strong push for users to post difficult, obscure questions and not trivial "how do I split a string" questions. I think your answer is realistic, but the situation isn't great. It's literally unwelcoming (but not rude) to say "don't post difficult questions, or easy questions", so I'd guess the downvoters are more expressing their disagreement that the system is working as intended, or maybe they think difficult questions can work in some circumstances.
    – jrh
    Commented Aug 13, 2020 at 20:07
  • thanks @jrh - that helps me better understand Commented Aug 13, 2020 at 21:41

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