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About a year ago, Stack Exchange removed "Hot Meta Posts" (HMP) from Stack Overflow's sidebar, giving moderators exclusive, manual control over which questions were "featured". The change was controversial at the time, and the drawbacks/fallout of this change have continued to be obvious over the past year.

Now, one of the major justifications for removing HMP seems to have evaporated. A recent blog post from Stack Exchange admitted that Meta actually does represent engaged users to a much greater extent than they previously believed. That being the case, it seems like at least one of the main assumptions behind the original change was wrong.

That being said, are we going to get this feature back? Or, at a minimum, can this be re-evaluated in light of the new data?

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  • 10
    What are you looking for besides what is an increasingly hollow moral victory on this?
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 3, 2020 at 16:37
  • 72
    @Makoto having a feature consistent with all other sites in SE network? Relieving moderators from a burden to manually pick HMP? Recovering thing that used to work perfectly well before it was dropped?
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 3, 2020 at 16:42
  • 34
    @Makoto with attitude like that one can label anything hollow. Is that a new magic word to justify keeping wrong way and avoiding a change out of a fear that it might cause discomfort to someone up the company ladder
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 3, 2020 at 17:07
  • 24
    @Makoto Personally, I'm not really interested in some "I told you so" moment. However, the main original justification for the change was found to be untrue, so it makes sense to at least re-evaluate whether the change still makes sense. (I think that it doesn't). Commented Apr 3, 2020 at 17:16
  • 34
    For what it's worth, big props to Yaakov Ellis who does engage with Meta on occasion and showed the company from the inside that their assumptions about how poor of a representation Meta was of the user base were false.
    – Davy M
    Commented Apr 3, 2020 at 17:21
  • 47
    HMP was one of the things which drew me to Meta, helped make me an engaged user, and kept me engaged. I'm not sure if that would have happened without HMP. Now, without HMP, I find it's necessary to put in much more effort to stay engaged with Meta. HMP changed significantly more frequently than featured meta posts. Both types of notifications are useful. Featured posts are the important ones which most users should be looking at. HMP were potentially interesting posts which helped draw people into being interested in the meta aspects of SO, rather than just programming questions/answers.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Apr 3, 2020 at 18:20
  • 44
    Hey folks, just wanted to let everyone know that we're talking about this on our side too, and we're going to meet next week to discuss it. We may need to meet a few times before we iron out what we think is the best way to go, but I'll provide an answer that I'll keep updated as we meet / decide / come up with an idea to share on how we can bring this functionality back.
    – user50049
    Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 14:19
  • 11
    Unsure what definition of "engaged user base" is used here, but want to say that meta does not accurately represent me or my opinions about SE as a platform or business. At best meta reflects a certain subset of the user-base, one that's 1) inclined to be vocal, and 2) generally predisposed to agreeing with the established clique. Dissenting views tend to get downvoted and/or ignored by the entrenched base of meta users; those viewpoints stop participating. As an aside, I'm quite happy to not have any meta posts cross-promoted on the non-meta UI. Not that many on meta will agree. :)
    – aroth
    Commented Jun 7, 2020 at 9:49
  • 9
    @TimPost Just a short comment, I think there is merit in ability to explicitly mark some posts as featured and have them pinned on the side, but I am also very, very, very much in favor of bringing back Hot Meta Posts with at least 2 slots.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jun 7, 2020 at 13:13
  • 10
    @aroth: What you say is very true, and that's why the sidebar is useful: to allow regular SO readers and posters to participate in meta discussions, and to express their opinions. This way the 'clique' hopefully doesn't maintain complete control of the visible feedback from the community on this site.
    – user000001
    Commented Jun 7, 2020 at 15:54
  • 8
    @aroth the response to that is that the side bar allows more opinions to be shared. Removing that means that less opinions are shared.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 8, 2020 at 12:24
  • 12
    @Michael-Where'sClayShirky I think we'll be able to share something about it soon. Yaakov or I will post an update once we're ready. We just need everyone on board with how we're going to proceed which also means looping in the mods / mod council. It shouldn't be too long.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 23, 2020 at 16:43
  • 12
    @TimPost I see it in the sidebar again. Thanks. Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:44
  • 10
    Sorry that kept taking longer than we thought it would. I'm glad it's finally back.
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 14, 2020 at 13:47
  • 5
    Now that HMP is back it instantly shows in better participation, I would say. A regression that was fortunately fixed after a year. Commented Aug 19, 2020 at 7:34

8 Answers 8

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As of posting, the Hot Meta Posts feature has been re-enabled on Stack Overflow, so this is .

We're also making a change to the existing rules for the HMPs - we're making it so that all [status-*] tags will remove a post from being eligible - but you'll otherwise see them in the same situations that you would previously - for more information on what the rules are for the Bulletin, see the related MSE FAQ.

Additionally, a new mod tool has been released that will allow mods to directly and immediately remove a meta post from HMP.

As you point out, we've done a lot of learning as a company over the last year about the value of Meta, particularly MSO. This doesn't mean that the concerns Tim voiced in the original announcement have been completely removed but that we feel the importance of this feature - particularly as it relates to SO curation and community building work done here on MSO - is too great to leave "off" while we figure out the work we can do to improve Meta features like the HMPs.

Changes and Limitations

Because we do still have some concern - and because the HMP can be somewhat out of anyone's control - we're adding the ability to add any status tag to help limit the HMP contents. This will also remove discussions that have ended, like when tag synonymizations are , from appearing in the sidebar, which seems in line with how already does the same. We think this is a reasonable interim solution until we can more closely look at the contents of the HMP list and discuss what the next steps are to improve it. I'm really a fan of the idea that Bhargav suggested about making it possible for mods to exempt a question, like with Hot Network Questions.

What we really want to avoid in the Hot Meta Posts are questions that call out, or are rude towards, specific users, moderators, or staff. Usually these questions don't get upvoted so our concerns are relatively low, but please understand that if we see these in the HMP we may act to reduce their visibility by changing the tags - either adding a status tag (if appropriate) or making the question a question instead of a question.

Future Discovery

We're planning to schedule more investigation for improvements to Hot Meta Posts network-wide as a project in Q4 2020. When we posted about this change last year, several answers proposed ideas of how to adjust the HMP feature along with questions about the impact of this change that we should consider and we'd like to investigate some of those, particularly thinking about the things that Bhargav wrote in his answer. These are important concerns we need keep in mind, and I'm looking forward to see how we can improve and grow from this rather than just returning to where it was.

Thank you all for bringing us back to this discussion - if you have questions or concerns, please let me know in the comments or in an answer on the the related discussion on MSE.

While I'm the one posting this response, I didn't get here on my own. Thanks goes to the rest of the Community Managers and the Community Leadership Team for taking the time to work through this discussion and get to this solution.

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    This is good to see. I hope the company has learned a valuable lesson here about removing load-bearing features without a concrete replacement in place - much time has been wasted over the past year that could have been spent making this system work better for the people who depend on it. My advice for staff remains what it was a year ago: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/328160/…
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:37
  • 16
    Very happy HMP is back. If a post is featured, then it should not be in the HMP, so that’s good, but status-completed posts could still be of interest sometime after tagged that. My concern is that posts criticising the company will be manually taken out of the HMP. I’m not really sure why you’re so worried about rude posts. They should be taken down as quickly as possible, so they’re not likely to sit in HMP for very long. Also; wrongly tagging as support instead of discussion is not good. It seems a bit like a censorship. Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:39
  • 9
    @Andreas The status completed tag has always removed a post from the HMP - all we've done is expanded it to all status tags. And if someone's complaining about issues with a specific person, I think that is a support question... there's no "discussion" to have - they're looking for help solving a specific concern, not looking for someone to validate their complaints against someone.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:42
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    @Andreas That's not really how it works. The HMPs are randomly selected from all qualifying posts every hour or so. - On an active meta site, there could be dozens of qualified questions at any given time, making it unlikely that any one question will be selected. This also works in conjunction with the number of featured blog posts and featured meta questions on the site... But we'll take each case individually and will be working with the mods. As I've said - I think it's unlikely but we need to be able to address these cases when they do need removal, so we have done so.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:49
  • 6
    @Andreas We're not against making adjustments to how the HMPs work - we can certainly think about solutions like letting status tags work for the first n hours but that'll have to wait until we start looking at this in Q4. There is value in letting people know about completed discussions but there's also value in making sure people are aware of the next important discussion, as there's only a two-week window where those can be visible in the HMP. It's a balance. So, as an example, we could let status-tagged posts be chosen if there's no other qualifying ones.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:57
  • 7
    @Andreas Sure. And y'all are welcome to start one, either here or on MSE, since these changes are likely going to be network-wide. :)
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 13:59
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    Thank you for this. Though ironically I would've loved to find this very post in HMP now. :P
    – Siguza
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 14:51
  • 3
    @Andreas last few months have proven that SO moderators can (and do) manually promote worthy posts no matter how critical by using featured tag. And, which is probably most important, that company ability to prevent this is rather limited. Because of that I would not be much concerned about possible censorship
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 15:09
  • 2
    "What we really want to avoid in the Hot Meta Posts are questions that call out or are rude towards specific users, moderators or staff". This list is missing "[towards] the company". I know your answer here is just a pointer and not a standard in any way, but can you tell if posts calling out the company (or company policy) will fall into the same category? Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 15:37
  • 3
    @AndrasDeak Our primary concern is for individuals, not the company. That doesn't mean that questions seen as particularly damaging to the company wouldn't ever be removed but that's not the focus of our concern and I believe they'd be less likely to be removed. We are cognizant of the impact removing such messages would be, so we have to balance the impact of removal with the impact of letting them be featured on SO randomly every hour.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 16:09
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    Huzzah! Thank you to the CM team for restoring this worthwhile feature.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 16:52
  • 4
    Thank you, I hope to see the changes proposed soon. :)
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 17:48
  • 4
    Fantastic! Certainly not all the damage done by the company these past few months will be instantly be reversed, but I consider this a very good step in the right direction!
    – user10957435
    Commented Aug 13, 2020 at 2:44
  • 2
    @gnat Network-wide, yes. I'd already updated the FAQ (linked above).
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Aug 13, 2020 at 12:21
  • 2
    Much appreciated - both the change, and the way you explain it (and SO's ongoing concerns). Commented Aug 19, 2020 at 11:52
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I vote yes

This very post is a prime example of why we need it. It was posted 2 months ago and I just found out about it now because it's listed as "Featured on Meta".

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    In addition, please make HMP have four slots no matter what. There can be 15 blog posts and podcast episodes, 25 meta.SE posts, but do not take space away from HMP.
    – Siguza
    Commented Jun 2, 2020 at 15:06
  • 49
    Very much agreed. HMP was how I stayed up with what was going on, now I just don't even bother as I just see that same 1-2 post every single day. Verity is the spice of life and right now life is pretty bland ;) Commented Jun 2, 2020 at 19:02
  • 4
    OP was briefly on the "Featured on Meta" and then disappeared again. Thanks, caching? Commented Jun 2, 2020 at 20:36
  • 2
    Why is this even a big deal?
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 18:51
  • @Siguza Could make it a minimum of 4. Wouldn't mind having 10 to choose from. Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 23:39
  • 1
    @Andreas Sure, I don't have an issue with that, but a flat 4 sounds like a(n ever so slightly) more realistic thing to ask for at the moment.
    – Siguza
    Commented Jun 6, 2020 at 2:16
  • Why is you not knowing about it a problem? Why do we "need" this feature in order to "fix" the issue of most users not caring about meta, not reading the posts on there or contributing to that forum? Commented Jun 9, 2020 at 16:22
  • 3
    @GeoffGriswald wonder if you aware of recent research performed by SE engineering (which essentially triggered discussed feature request). "TL;DR - a high percentage (50+%) of curation/moderation actions on Stack Overflow come from users who at least occasionally visit MSO or MSE. This is true for the entire range of time we looked at..."
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 9, 2020 at 16:41
  • OK? So if you use Meta you're more likely to moderate and help out around the site. Great. If there's one thing this site doesn't need, it's more moderators and removal of comments etc. If anything, the site is massively overprovisioned for that. So again, if there is no current issue with participation in Meta, in fact you could argue there is too much participartion, since there are so many posts here the staff can't possibly even read them all, let alone respond to them individually, the site is already healthy, why the need to promote Meta content to more users?? Commented Jun 11, 2020 at 11:58
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Moderator [featured] only was an experiment. It failed

Bhargav Rao's post had this point

There is a huge added responsibility on mods. We need to be very careful while featuring posts, lest we get a new meta asking why a particular post was featured, and then a flag on that post asking for it to be featured, and then another meta asking why that particular flag was declined.

Now, the mod war never happened, but largely because this preceded that other thing and that made some active moderators leave. But this part has remained true. We expect moderators to manage the mod flag queue and somehow pick out what to feature on Meta. Or even notice there's flags sitting out on Meta.

Guess what hasn't happened...

HMP allows the broader Meta community to help pick what gets listed. We vote and things show up for the broader community to see. We've had massive impromptus conversations because HMP brought in more people. All that has ended. Instead, [featured] is now largely stale. Yes, there has been an effort to change that but the usage of a Meta question still relies on you knowing it exists.

Bring back voting the primary way to get things into HMP. It would also be nice to have our previous 4 slots, instead of the meager 2 we're relegated to now.

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    Small nit-pick: not just the broader meta community; the community as a whole. Hot questions are a positive feedback loop - that's a dangerous thing if left unchecked, but there were checks. Predominate among those checks was a time-limit for how long something could remain in the bulletin - 3 days on SO. NobodyNada's answer highlights how turning this into a manual system has killed the diversity previously found in these posts; this isn't due to a loss of meta regulars, it's the loss of the greater community.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 4, 2020 at 22:14
  • "...an effort to change that..." And in order for the effort to work, it uses up one of the slots. 🤦‍♂️ Commented Jun 10, 2020 at 21:03
  • I seem to remember there were mod wars around featuring resignations or similar.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Aug 18, 2020 at 16:35
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    "Experiment"? They simply removed the original feature because SO employees found it extremely stressful to be sent forth as cannon fodder on meta to present the latest Really Dumb Idea (tm) that the company had come up with, without any prior community discussion in advance. The staff-turning-cannon-fodder problem could have been solved either by having the CEO or CTO present new features personally (as often done by many other tech companies), or alternatively by discussing Really Dumb Ideas with the community before implementing them.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 19, 2020 at 9:58
89

It's been almost a year since HMP was disabled, and I think we can conclude that removing Hot Meta posts was a failed experiment regardless of whether or not the Meta community is a representative sample of Stack Overflow users.

Take a look at the list of all [featured] posts since HMP was removed (up to the last SEDE update). Grouping these into rough categories, we see:

Comparing this to my recollection of how HMP worked, I notice that:

  • There are a lot fewer posts now. HMP ensured that there were always three or four posts on the bulletin, so it would generally cycle through a couple questions every day. There have been 53 manually featured posts, which makes an average of only one post every six days.
  • There are very few low-profile general discussions. We used to see interesting questions asking about site policy, discussing how to handle a specific post, or reporting an bug. Now that moderators must manually feature posts, we only see very high-profile announcements and crises -- none of the little interesting tidbits or friendly discussions that would show up in HMP for just a couple hours to brighten my day.
  • There's a LOT more negativity. The past 12 months had...some challenges, and as a result most of the high-profile discussions were not exactly happy ones. Now controversial discussions tend to be the only ones that attract enough attention to become featured, and so now they're over-represented compared to how they were in Hot Meta Posts.

The end result is way less community engagement. I was never much of an active contributor to Meta, but I read just about everything that was in the Hot Meta Posts. Now that that's gone, Stack Overflow users are no longer welcomed to participate in the general everyday chitchat and policy discussions, and "the 0.015%" becomes even smaller. Additionally, the over-representation of negative/controversial discussion exaggerates the "problem" of hostile/unwelcoming behavior on Meta by drawing too much attention to the controversies and not enough attention to the daily grind that really makes Meta a community.

The removal of HMP was supposed to decrease the visibility of controversy and instead focus on "ideal discussions to entice new people to come to meta" such as "tag requests, moderators explaining actions taken, and similar things." Instead, it's had the opposite effect. Moderator time is a very scarce resource, and only those "not ideal" discussions are able to attract enough attention to become featured.

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    Really interesting analysis, thanks. I forgot how I used to enjoy reading burnination threads, mostly for the puns - even though I never participated in that activity. And I miss just kind of seeing the community going about its business, and occasional opportunities to participate. You're right that the featured posts are mostly either big controversies, or requests for feedback from the company. Commented Jun 9, 2020 at 6:03
  • 2
    Good analysis, thanks. So it seems like at least two of the main arguments for the change have since been refuted, which seems like even more of a reason to re-evaluate this. Commented Jun 10, 2020 at 14:06
3

A few opinions on this

  • using to kick off a post is a bit of a terrible hack. Nothing as permanent as a temporary fix

  • posts going on, and getting organically and non organically off the hot meta post status might be on the timeline, and if removed, reflect who removed it, for accountability. Its something we would expect to have used rarely

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    I don't see an issue with [status-*] tags removing a post from the HMP, even as a permanent feature. It already worked that way for some [status-] tags and now moderators have even more control in applying *correct tags to a post to remove it from the HMP section. What I wouldn't want to see in HMP's return is mods having to add status-completed to questions that the tag doesn't apply to just to get them removed from HMP.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 12, 2020 at 16:54
0

Yes, but please do it right and try to more evenly spread the extra attention.

For example, currently Feature test: Thank you reaction is the only shown hot meta post and its at a score of about -400 and has 63 answers and counting, many of which are duplicates of each other. This is enough attention and the feedback is already as clear as it possibly can get. To make it even worse, this question was locked for 30 days because the discussion got lengthy. That's difficult to reconcile: featured means that a question needs more attention and locking means that it has too much attention, both together at the same time doesn't look good to me.

The hot meta post slots on main are free advertisement for meta and should be used to the best benefit. An algorithm that basically changes the featured question often, de-emphasizes the ones that already have a lot of attention (threshold on votes and number of answers maybe) and those that are of no particular interest and usually get closed quickly with a negative score, but otherwise just displays the other questions as evenly as possible and the possibility to manually override that (e.g. for featuring burnination requests more often) would be the best option, I think.

Also, featuring and unfeaturing of questions should not affect the order in the question list, i.e. the feature should not get in the way of those just browsing through meta questions.

Related: Is the intensity of meta working in our favor or to our detriment?

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    The lock that was applied there is a comment-only lock. It means there were too many comments. Moderators apply that lock to funnel people to post answers with their thoughts/opinions/feedback, rather than engage in a discussion in the comments section. It is not a contradiction to have a [featured] post with a comments lock applied. In fact, now that we have comment locks, you'll probably start seeing it more often than not.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2020 at 7:48
  • 1
    @CodyGray I understand what you're trying to do, but I don't think it's really working. Now there are too many answers on that question. To me its a contradiction (locking comments on featured posts). Doesn't mean it's really one, just that that's what I think. Commented Jun 19, 2020 at 8:41
  • You can't prohibit people from reading the post and immediately trying to post a response. That's why there are many answers/comments. The people posting them isn't reading the answers that already cover their main idea and that's why the post another one.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 19, 2020 at 17:32
  • @Braiam Yes and that's why I think this question should make place for others in the hot meta posts list. We are at 74 answers currently. Surely 100 is achievable. Commented Jun 19, 2020 at 20:43
  • Again, nothing we can do about that short of locking everything. The HMP isn't the one at fault for that, it may not have make things better in that question, but it sure prevented several duplicates asking for that feature. It's basically moving the stream of posts from the /question tab to the /questions/whateveriditis.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 19, 2020 at 20:45
  • @Braiam I'm not sure. Maybe people just comment now in answers because that's what we wanted to achieve with the comment lock. We could have chosen not to lock it. And diverting less attention on that announcement might also have kept the number of answers lower. Maybe more people would have asked about the feature elsewhere. Everything is always a trade off. If you ask me, the comment lock and featuring do not work well together, but that's only my impression. Commented Jun 19, 2020 at 20:49
  • 1
    I assure you that if we didn't feature it, we would have more questions about reactions than we have answers on that question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 19, 2020 at 20:56
  • 2
    74 answers isn't really a problem, though, as long as everyone is providing constructive feedback. So far, it seems like they are. I'm pretty happy with that. I think it sends a strong message that the community does not like this.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2020 at 23:51
  • @CodyGray 83 answers aren't a problem directly nor would be more comments, I think. Feedback is very repetitive, because everyone wants to say the same thing in its own words instead of just voting. I didn't read all the answers, I stopped when they started repeating themselves often, like after 20 answers or so. The company won't process that either, they won't have time to read it all. It doesn't send a message of dislike directly though (the score does), some of the answers are positive. Lots of answers mean strong feelings, but they could go either way. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:41
  • @CodyGray I'm fine with all of that, but I think this question doesn't need to be featured much more. The extra attention might be better spent somewhere else because more votes and more answers, while they don't hurt, aren't helping either in this case - the company is well aware of what meta users think about it. If the question is featured for the rest of the test period, people might get bored by the HMP list. At least those that visit SO often, maybe less those that come only occasionally. Commented Jun 22, 2020 at 7:45
-72
  1. Meta sites do not represent the most active users. Anybody can see that with a little SEDE play.
  2. They partially represent the most active reviewers. Doing that, they have an essential role in the unwelcomingness of the site network.
  3. Meta sites have their own social evolution, which is independent from the main site. That our meta rep is locked to our main site rep, is likely to avoid it, however it is not enough. And experience shows for me that the metas are being ruled by a vehement, hostile, narrow group of users. Well, they really don't represent anything, except themselves.
  4. That the SE had "admitted" it, well I seriously doubt that. They might do that if they have really no idea, what is going on the site network (imho it is very likely). Alternatively, the blog post might be a step to repair the peace with the meta communities. But there is peace already, some type of a pax romana. What the company needs, is not "more peace". What they need, is increasing stats.

Note, recent SO stats show, that the concept of giving up quality for more users (and breaking the spine of the meta mafias communities) works, at least quantitavely.

However, this new user base is not active on the metas (yet), but they might become - if they get the time to adapt and grow. Meanwhile, also they will learn to communicate well in written form, and they will start some selection/reviewing attitude, a new "self-cleaning mechanism". Hopefully a better one, which ruled the site network in the era of the stagnation (≈ 2014-2019).

Having the meta links on the site again will be imho useful from the moment, that this new user group, attracted by the late 2019 changes, will be enough strong to moderate (review). Not before. Giving back the meta links to the main now, it would only catalyze the current meta mafia community.

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    How did you become active in meta and why?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 3, 2020 at 18:46
  • 14
    "Vehement, hostile" meta users represent the opinion that the objective value of the site is in many ways inversely proportional to how welcoming it is, and that these things are fundamentally irreconcilable. It's just a matter of time before someone makes their own SO with blackjack and hookers and it shoots to the top of the Google page rankings. Commented Jun 3, 2020 at 21:15
  • 7
    @StackOverthrow I am really sorry, but if I had seen here in the past 5 years a group of idealists wanting to improve the content, wanting to create a "cathedral of the knowledge", I would be in the first line among you. But not this is what I felt. I see a hird of nepotists, completely ignoring anything what I could call idealism, desperatively carving for the diamond on the next election.
    – peterh
    Commented Jun 3, 2020 at 21:24
  • 20
    wonder if you aware of recent research performed by SE engineering. "TL;DR - a high percentage (50+%) of curation/moderation actions on Stack Overflow come from users who at least occasionally visit MSO or MSE. This is true for the entire range of time we looked at..."
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 3, 2020 at 21:29
  • 5
    thanks for clarifyiing. I have read it prior to commenting but still remained uncertain if this part refered to mentioned research because per my reading your statements in (2) and (1) seem to deviate from my interpretation of research results
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 3, 2020 at 21:35
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    your comment above seems to support my understanding that your interpretation differs from that of SE engineering. Specifically, you define meta activity by posting (similar to how it was done in 0.015% theory) while SE folks define it by visitiing
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 3, 2020 at 22:43
  • 6
    well given that main site is supposed to be perfectly usable without meta at all, the fact of regular visits look like a sensible indication of an interest in meta. And if you add that according to research these visitors are highly active at main site, this interest looks really genuine, not like they are bored and have nothing better to do...
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 4, 2020 at 18:04
  • 4
    ...Granted, I would prefer more thorough description and analysis of this group than vague "visit at least once a month", but even in current rough form it looks more reliable than 0.015% theory which seemed to break even at simple checks, eg at comparing theory estimates against votes and views on top meta posts
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 4, 2020 at 18:05
  • 40
    @peterh-ReinstateMonica You used the word "mafia" 3 times so far to describe meta communities. You did so while accusing them of hostility and unwelcomingness. I hope you can see the irony. That's all. Thanks!
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jun 4, 2020 at 20:13
  • 22
    Small nit-pick: Stack Exchange's analysis focused on reviewers, but I did my own analysis at the tail end of last year focused on prolific answerers who read meta; I scraped several months of detailed access logs in order to do so, and the tl;dr of that research was: frequent answerers DO read meta, and in very large numbers. This is the danger in drawing conclusions based on what is easy to measure; it too easily neglects what is actually important. The Stack Exchange company made this mistake repeatedly, but perhaps they will not be so quick to do so again.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 4, 2020 at 22:21
  • 4
    I'm not going to insist that SE engineering research is correct - because as I mentioned above, they did not provide enough data to back it up. Maybe they need to account for higher visits frequency than once a month... or maybe lower, can't tell with data available. That said, estimating by visits looks more promising than by posts - primarily because of the way how I (and maybe millions others) use main site. We don't post, we don't vote - we just search for already posted answers to already asked questions, read them and use what we learned. This can be estimated by visits, not by posts
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 10:18
  • 13
    Peter, one of the big advantages of analyzing log data for this purpose is that it becomes possible to see how many folks are visiting regularly - once a week, once a month - instead of just "visited". This is something the company needs to be monitoring constantly - and doing so with the goal of encouraging civic involvement, not finding new excuses to discourage it. It's always easy to find excuses to silence the voice of the people - we see this all around us, ever day... Finding ways to raise those voices is hard, but it is what they must do.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 16:09
  • 16
    You're not wrong, @peter - but I am firmly convinced that the solution is more, not less. More voices, more conversation, more debate, more voting, more participation and more visibility! Silence is the death of community, and this community has been silenced for far too long.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 16:59
  • 19
    Your claims are just utterly lacking in evidence. Because history shows that your point of view is unpopular on Meta, you choose to assume that Meta must not be representative of the general population of experienced Stack Overflow users. An alternative explanation is that your point of view is equally unpopular among the vast majority of experienced Stack Overflow users. Since there's no true way to answer this question, let's just agree that it doesn't matter. I think it's long past time to stop waving the "persecution" flag.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 7, 2020 at 16:54
  • 7
    Yes, I agree that, in certain cases, some Meta users abuse their delete votes. I regularly step in to stop this whenever I think it is inappropriate. I have even contacted users in an attempt to get them to stop misusing their delete votes as "super-downvotes" on Meta. But this isn't representative of any sort of "endemic" problem on Meta, and doesn't prove that you're being persecuted. It's just evidence for why we need moderators: to defend your right to speak constructively, in favor of or in opposition to the site or the majority, even as we might strongly disagree with what you're saying.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2020 at 5:33
-105

I vote for

YES, but with limits.

The sidebar was removed for a reason, at the time we had several very active users constantly complaining about the company's policies with respect to various issues, such as:

  • not caring about the quality of the posted content, only the "engagement" metrics,
  • not caring about the free Q/A product, only the money making projects
  • retroactively re-licensing the existing content
  • not "listening" to active meta users
  • firing moderators
  • inflammatory moderator resignations

and probably many more I don't remember.

The limits I propose are to increase the moderation intensity and speed on meta, in the direction of:

  • quickly deleting disruptive content (questions, answers, comments) that are critical to Stack Overflow
  • quickly banning from meta the users that repeatedly post such content.

I definitely agree that the sidebar is very useful both for staying up to date with recent meta discussions, and for attracting new users on meta, but without any limits there is a danger of having critical posts staying in the sidebar too long.

18
  • 62
    So basically make sure that no one ever sees anything critical of the company? Commented Apr 4, 2020 at 14:44
  • 1
    @EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica: Yes, pretty much... Wasn't that the intention behind removing the HMP list in the first place? In my opinion the HMP list would be useful even if filtered against "uncomfortable" posts.
    – user000001
    Commented Apr 4, 2020 at 14:56
  • A lot of the moderator posts at least were just manually featured anyway, though. Commented Apr 4, 2020 at 15:02
  • 22
    your note about "several very active users" made me wonder if you are aware of recent research performed by SE engineering. "TL;DR - a high percentage (50+%) of curation/moderation actions on Stack Overflow come from users who at least occasionally visit MSO or MSE. This is true for the entire range of time we looked at..."
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 4, 2020 at 20:11
  • 17
    Is this sarcasm? Commented Jun 2, 2020 at 15:30
  • 11
    @user000001 We cannot trade away fundamental principles of democratic structures, and free speech. Censorship of information is harmful to development and evolution. We cannot solve problems if we're not allowed to discuss problems. You lose me with "hyperbole" at "quickly deleting disruptive content (questions, answers, comments) that are critical to Stack Overflow". Commented Jun 2, 2020 at 15:38
  • 4
    I +1'd this. I know this isn't going to be a popular comment but I want to take this opportunity to say that some users don't care that much about the "community". I should be allowed to say, and I mean no disrespect to the people concerned, that I didn't really care about the past events. Seeing the HMP being just about that was pretty much irrelevant to me. Some users use meta sites just to understand practices and find resolutions, not to engage with the community. HMP can also be useful to these people. So I agree that there should be moderation. Calling it censorship makes no sense. Commented Jun 2, 2020 at 19:34
  • 7
    @customcommander you can always ignore the side bar ;)
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 2, 2020 at 22:06
  • 6
    @user000001 when you say "quickly deleting disruptive content" - do you mean just from HMP, or actually honestly delete the posts from Meta? As written, I'm assuming the latter, with which I vehemently disagree. Commented Jun 3, 2020 at 13:56
  • 1
    Not suggesting a conclusion in either direction, but the statement "TL;DR - a high percentage ... at least occasionally visit MSO or MSE" appears to be very poor support for the statement "meta users represent engaged users". I would be curious to see the percentage of moderation coming from people who visit worldbuilding occasionally, or any other frequently-sidebarred location.
    – Cireo
    Commented Jun 3, 2020 at 19:33
  • 31
    If deleting or otherwise censoring anything posted on Meta that is critical of the company's policies and/or controversial is what it takes to bring back "Hot Meta Posts", then I don't want it back. I refuse to do that. Doing what you are proposing to eliminate is the primary purpose of Meta.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 4, 2020 at 6:59
  • 7
    "quickly deleting disruptive content (questions, answers, comments) that are critical to Stack Overflow" - I'm shocked! If this is where SO or MSO is headed...you can have it. Commented Jun 4, 2020 at 18:50
  • 1
    It's perhaps not phrased in the best way but I don't think the suggestion is to simply delete all posts critical to SO from the site. The way I see it is to moderate HMP so that it's not just a number game; HMP can feature "hot posts" covering different areas (perhaps something similar to the "Interesting" filter). Allowing contents from all areas while making sure one doesn't take over completely is not censorship, it's just moderation. Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 5:54
  • 2
    @Cireo I don't agree. If they occasionally visit Worldbuilding, that would indicate that they have at least some degree of engagement in other sites too (which would be an interesting finding in and of itself). It would not imply that they aren't engaged in Meta. At a minimum, the data suggests that Meta's not just a couple of active users talking to each other - a lot of engaged users are at least lurking (even if they're not always actively posting). I would be curious to see how many of them voted on stuff, though. Commented Jun 5, 2020 at 15:41
  • 8
    (Note: I'm not active on SO, but I am a mod on RPG.SE.) I very strongly disagree that posts should be deleted or users banned solely for criticizing SE Inc.'s actions. The key is that personally targeted criticism, or overly rude/hostile posts/comments, should be getting deleted (and the users suspended if needed) regardless of who they're targeted at. It also requires community self-policing from users to not post such things, to flag posts that do, and to avoid excessive pile-ons. This has no bearing on what should be featured. Constructive, polite criticism of actions should be allowed.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Jun 8, 2020 at 1:45

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