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I've been banned for reviewing stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25476559 as "Requires Editing". OK, I might have been wrong, although I know exactly how I would have edited the post: I would have included some elementary code and removed redundant repetition of the question. Two other reviewers also voted "Requires Editing", and further two felt it "Looks OK".

Interestingly, the moderator thinks that the question "Needs more focus". Sorry, but I can't follow here. I can accept that multiple reviewers are wrong, but I don't see how this question

has many valid answers (but no way to determine which - if any - are correct),

and

probably needs to be more focused to be successful in our format.

The post contains exactly one, clearly formulated question:

achieve this [list only files in an FTP directory] using python ftplib or nlst()

and has attracted an answer to it. I see that it could have been better formulated and formatted (therefore "Requires Editing"), but not how it could have been split into multiple questions or more limited in scope.

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  • 1
    meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/295650/…
    – rene
    Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 19:30
  • 9
    I know exactly how I would have edited the post: I would have included some elementary code and removed redundant repetition of the question. but you don't have that elementary code, right?
    – rene
    Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 19:31
  • 9
    It's up to the OP to provide their "elementary code" that isn't working, not for other editors of their question. Editing in code not from the OP would be putting words in their mouth. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 19:33
  • 4
    I don't really understand how you could have been banned for this review, given the information you have provided. But I also don't see how editing by someone else could have improved this question. We're not mind readers. I wonder if the other two reviewers who agreed that it "Requires Editing" were also banned? Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:02
  • @RobertHarvey I'm pretty sure they are, given the moderator attention these reviews now get
    – rene
    Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:30
  • @rene: Well, that's unfortunate. Unless they're being accused of robo-reviewing, I just don't see the justification. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:31
  • 1
    @rene Although, as you know, I have no inside information on why this particular review triggered a ban, it does seem a little harsh. Generally, folks are being banned for multiple bad "Requires Editing" flags. However, looking at the OP's recent review history, there are several other "Requires Editing" choices on posts that did not get any "Unsalvageable" flags, and did not end up being closed. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:51
  • @AdrianMole sure, I have yet to check any review. I have only had time to respond to the meta post as is. Feel free to write an answer to make that argument.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:57
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    @RobertHarvey we apply review bans to educate. “Requires editing” posts are sent to Help and Improvement, which is an absolute waste of everyone’s time for posts like these. Commented Mar 8, 2020 at 7:29
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    And yes, the other reviewers that picked “Requires editing” were also banned. You and the others were all given the same Meta post link, which I duped this post to. Read that post. The reviewers that picked “Looks OK” were also suspended from review, with a different message. Commented Mar 8, 2020 at 7:31
  • @rene: Not right, but never mind. The question is about being "not focused". I said all there is to it in my question, please read it.
    – Igor F.
    Commented Mar 8, 2020 at 11:43
  • @MartijnPieters: Then that's what the flag description needs to say. "Needs editing by Help and Improvement" (whatever that is). Commented Mar 8, 2020 at 15:01
  • @RobertHarvey: yes, and there are already several feature requests open for that. Until that is changed however, this is what we have to work with. Commented Mar 8, 2020 at 19:44
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    @MartijnPieters: I think we should stop trying to work around missing features using moderator tools. Folks shouldn't be punished for something that is Stack Exchange's fault. Commented Mar 8, 2020 at 20:06

1 Answer 1

-1

So yeah, I looked at the other guidance on this site about the Triage Queue options, and I conclude that the guidance is too vague to be banning users for "misusing" this particular flagging option.

This is another one of those things like "Not an Answer" that people are just not going to get right. They're going to apply their own interpretation of "requires editing" and make their own decisions and conclusions.

Consequently, it's just one more "angels dancing on the head of a pin" issue that we should be trying to simplify, not clarify.

Consider "Not an Answer." For years people have used this flag to mean "This doesn't answer the question," when the true meaning and purpose of the flag is and has always been to ferret out things that should have been posted as comments, not answers.

Therefore, instead of trying to force people to use the flag the way we think it should be used, we should simply change the guidance for that option to align with the way people are using it.

In the case of "Not an Answer," we could have simply changed the flag guidance to "This doesn't answer the question" and avoided a whole lot of heartache.

I am reminded of Michigan State University's decision to let students walk on the grass, and then put sidewalks where the paths were worn into the grass indicating where students really wanted to walk.


Y'all don't like that example? Fine, I'll give you another one. Close Reasons. The company gave us a whole new list of them, summarily wiping out years of arguing, debating and pontificating over the precise wording of them in the hopes that new users would somehow become enlightened by them. And guess what? They work. Far better than the original ones ever did.

Tools given to volunteers need to make sense. If you can't explain them or convince normal users of your reasoning, the tools are useless.

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  • I'm not sure what you want to have changed. Do you want a different text on the "Requires Edit" option? Or do you mean that it should be changed when Requires Edit should be selected?
    – BDL
    Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:22
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    @BDL: I offered no such suggestion, only a possible different way of thinking about it. I'll leave that to others who understand the queues better than I do. But one thing I'm sure about: you shouldn't have to consult some treatise on how to use the queue properly. It should make sense at first glance. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:23
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    If there is no suggestion on what to change, then this is imho just a rant. (And it rants more about NaN than about Requires Editing). But then please consider that people might downvote this answer because they simply don't understand what you want to say/achieve.
    – BDL
    Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:25
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    [shrug]. Some of the best ideas emerge from considering the possibility that the original idea is flawed. As to being a rant, trust me: you haven't seen me rant yet. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:26
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    Oh, can we get you started? I admit that the tools can be much improved but it is a far 6 to 8 weeks before anything gets done. And I normally don't mind a feature being rough, in the case of triage it really matters it is done right. Because the wrong reviews basically paralyze the H&I queue. So now you need to fix two things. I think these banned reviewers will become better reviewers, if they decide to return to the queues after their suspension which is beneficial for all of us, specially for the H&I reviewers
    – rene
    Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:54
  • @rene: Unfortunately, there's no smoking gun here. Three out of five reviewers agreed that the post could benefit from editing, making the review ban already controversial at best. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 20:56
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    @rene: As to "6 to 8 weeks," the solution could be as simple as changing the wording of the flag option to "Could benefit from editing by someone other than the OP," if that is, in fact, how the flag is supposed to be interpreted. It's not nearly clear enough in the flag description that this is supposed to be an important facet of the flag's use. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 21:06
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    @RobertHarvey yeah, there are a lot of things I don't or want to understand but an A/B test with one of the many re-wording proposals already present on MSO would have learned us a lot. Even giving the ability to mods to edit these texts at will might have been beneficial. Instead the mods now communicate with review bans. You can't deny that it is a way to get a message across. We'll learn soon enough if it lead to much understanding.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 21:14
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    @rene: It is more important for community users to articulate (using flags, queues, whatever) that "something is wrong with this post, could somebody have a look at it," than it is to "get the wording right." As long as these folks aren't wasting people's time, they should get the benefit of the doubt. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 21:16
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    I've seen far too much pedantry over wording and the precise definition of things on these sites to believe that's a viable strategy anymore. It simply doesn't work. Commented Mar 7, 2020 at 21:18
  • @rene, re: "banned reviewers will become better reviewers, if they decide to return to the queues". Assuming you're right about it, it has a dual: If you ban already good reviewers, they won't be returning to the queues. To whom is it beneficial?
    – Igor F.
    Commented Mar 9, 2020 at 12:34

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