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Today on "In Case You Missed It"…

Shog9, a veteran Stack Overflow member and long-time Community Manager for Stack Exchange, recently Tweeted that he is no longer working for the company.

An announcement was posted on Meta Stack Exchange to this end, thanking Shog9 for his years of service and wishing him well. If you'd like to share your thoughts, please do so there. Note that Shog9 himself has also replied.

In addition to Shog9, it has been noted that Robert Cartaino's diamond has been removed as well, suggesting that he is no longer on staff, either.

These apparently inscrutable decisions on the part of the Stack Exchange management have led to some further discussion on Meta Stack Exchange:

Today, we are seeing a new wave of SE actions targeted on work with the community: firing/letting go/agreeing to separate (the actual term is unknown and can remain an unknown forever) two very knowledgable and very trusted community managers: Shog9 and Robert Cartaino.

This question has drawn an official answer from Stack Exchange management.

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  • 71
    Oh, Shog9 is gone??!! Jan 13, 2020 at 20:20
  • 177
    Wow. I would just like to say that, from my perspective as a cold, unfeeling, selfish person who honestly hasn't cared much about any of the various controversies so far and has mostly just been annoyed at people for being upset, I find this extremely upsetting. Jan 13, 2020 at 22:14
  • 60
    And so the purge continues. Salyut, comrades.
    – Ian Kemp
    Jan 14, 2020 at 6:39
  • 21
    Many thanks to Cody Gray for editing this question, and making it worth to be "featured". When I wrote it up last night, I was already tired, and in the process of logging of. I am glad that you stepped up and added all that content, and a more helpful title!
    – GhostCat
    Jan 14, 2020 at 8:22
  • 24
    I think it's time for me to also leave SO. I can no longer support this company. Jan 14, 2020 at 8:27
  • 31
    SO Corp are out of their minds, its almost as if they're getting ready to replace anyone actively moderating or providing community insight with their own shills
    – Sayse
    Jan 14, 2020 at 9:02
  • 34
    @Sayse Yes, that is the impression I get, too. Which is one of the few reasons to stay around here, just to lean back, get some popcorn and watch that clown show. It is almost like watching the current US White House TV show, just without people dying and such.
    – GhostCat
    Jan 14, 2020 at 9:06
  • 59
    "Clowns led by monkeys" is the latest fashion in companies, isn't it?
    – MSalters
    Jan 14, 2020 at 9:56
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    @Mr.Boy When I came to MSO yesterday, nobody seemed to be aware. By now, this question received 166 up and 3 downvotes, and was viewed 3K times. So I think people do care. Strangely enough, when a house is on fire, most inhabitants really only care about that, and it doesn't matter to them how often the topic comes up. Err, 169 upvotes.
    – GhostCat
    Jan 14, 2020 at 12:37
  • 17
    @MattR That is probably subject to discussion. But well, plenty of people that were active on other stack exchange sites are already moving. See writing.codidact.com for a first community "on the move", and codidact.org as a potential new place. Albeit, make no mistake: it is one thing to get the main readers and writers of a small community to relocate. But for the millions of people that use stack overflow ... very different story.
    – GhostCat
    Jan 14, 2020 at 13:38
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    @j08691 It could be deliberate. A semi-common tactic among companies is to bring in a new CEO to make unpopular changes they want (layoffs, restructuring, direction changes, etc), then you "fire" (golden parachute) them, letting them take the heat for stuff you wanted to do anyways. Between the older layoffs, newer ads, and "welcoming" (aka "we desperately need new user numbers to keep climbing"), I strongly suspect SE is trying to position itself for an IPO or buyout.
    – mbrig
    Jan 14, 2020 at 17:07
  • 51
    F**k me. I'm surprised there's any space left for new nails on StackExchange's coffin. I didn't always agree with Shog9's point of view, but I always respected him because it was clear he cared deeply about the community. It was also clear that it was unsustainable for him to care so much and to be this competent amid so many mediocre new colleagues. I hope he'll find better projects in which he can grow happily. Jan 14, 2020 at 17:38
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    How about a compromise instead @TimPost? Give us a week. These two individuals meant a lot to this community.
    – Makoto
    Jan 15, 2020 at 20:24
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    Added to the timeline I've been working on: stackexchange-timeline
    – Samuel Liew Mod
    Jan 27, 2020 at 2:12
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    Yeah, here are my reasons: this was unfeatured previously to grant slots for CEO's and a sponsored tag merge post. Also, I miss Shog.
    – Samuel Liew Mod
    Jan 28, 2020 at 14:07

4 Answers 4

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I'm shocked. The site is unidentifiable to the site I took a break from a few months ago.

Many moderators are gone and now Shog and Robert.

It's undeniably the end of an era. If we, the community, feel sad, I can only imagine how Shog, Robert and the rest of the team feel.

I wish you both the very best. You will be missed. Who will get our statistics and create our colourful graphs Shog? In seriousness, thank you for all your work on here Shog. You've been a backbone, a great supporter, a voice of reason and you understood what makes this site tick. How vital the community is, where we are strong and where we flail. Irreplaceable.

A sad and somewhat empty site today.

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    The site is unidentifiable to the site I took a break from a few months ago. Do you mind giving just a few thoughts how exactly that manifests for you? You see, for those who staid, we probably already accustomed to the daily amount of decline, so an "outsider" perspective" would be really helpful.
    – GhostCat
    Jan 14, 2020 at 8:20
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    I'm shocked ... more like we're Shogged ...
    – rene
    Jan 14, 2020 at 8:28
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    @GhostCat Well, for one, Shog9 is gone... Jan 14, 2020 at 8:32
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    @rene Well, being "shogged" was something good, wasn't it. It meant you learned something helpful that day.
    – GhostCat
    Jan 14, 2020 at 8:35
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    @GhostCatsalutesMonicaC. it's too long to articulate in the comments. It's like there's been a revolution and the people didn't win.
    – user3956566
    Jan 14, 2020 at 9:42
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    I thought so. And yes, that emotion is exactly how I feel since weeks...
    – GhostCat
    Jan 14, 2020 at 9:43
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    I mean... i feel like we've been saying this all along, and you were pushing against us on it. At least it felt that way.
    – Kevin B
    Jan 14, 2020 at 18:19
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    @KevinB I wasn't pushing against anything. I just knew that the network would have it's way. I'm a realist. I won't fight a futile fight. It's not a community owned site and it's clear we have little to no say. I woke up to that fact and grieved it a while ago. Just because I'm saying it as I see it, doesn't mean I'm pushing against anyone. Rallying against an organisation within the platform of that organisation is doomed to fail.
    – user3956566
    Jan 14, 2020 at 18:23
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    @Cody Gray: Are you willing to join the elite squad of resigning moderators?
    – machine_1
    Jan 14, 2020 at 22:31
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    I don't know what I am going to do yet, @machine. It's very hard being stuck in this position. I completely understand why the folks who have chosen to step down have done so. I'm strongly considering it myself, with the departure of Shog9, one of the last people that I could trust and that I knew had our backs. On the other hand, I feel like forcing out people like Shog and myself is what the company wants, and I'm not the type to want to give folks that satisfaction. Jan 14, 2020 at 22:59
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    Why would you want to become a moderator again if you don't plan on participating on Meta? Doesn't make much sense to me. The community here is the only reason why I decided to start moderating in the first place, and it's the only reason why I continue. I certainly don't do it for the benefit of the company. Jan 14, 2020 at 23:46
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    I didn't mean to offend, Yvette. Just because I question your thought processes doesn't mean that I don't respect you. The fact that I care enough to ask speaks volumes. Active participation on Meta is not, of course, a requirement. Although all of the moderators do at least follow what is going on here on Meta, as frustrating as it sometimes is to/for all of us. Being that defensive is going to make moderating a real strain, but I don't have to tell you this; you did the work for years. Anyway, I hope you, your family & horses are safe and doing well, despite the fires raging down under. Jan 15, 2020 at 0:45
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    @CodyGray the fires are catastrophic, we had 500,000 hectare fire burning 10 km from us for 2.5 months. We now have animals on the endangered list. These are things that are important and where I put my energy. I do enjoy pottering and handling flags, but I'm not willing to put in the emotional investment into this site any longer. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I do keep an eye on meta, I need to know the rules to follow and if someone disputes the way a flag is handled. Thank you for your well wishes. I hope you and yours are all good.
    – user3956566
    Jan 15, 2020 at 0:50
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    There's a weird deafness about the company these days. I like Shog, he'd (she'd?) run a query, make a graph, and listen to what the data said. Without prejudice. These days, the company tells us to be friendly to newcomers, then itself acts arrogantly towards newcomers and apparently doesn't notice, or even hear it when anyone says so. What is this, what's happening? SO was data-centric and openminded once. I'm sorry that Shog leaves.
    – arnt
    Jan 15, 2020 at 15:55
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    Off-topic: nice horses. Jan 30, 2020 at 13:57
168

To me, in the past 3 months, this site felt a bit like this:

Demolition

I, like many other people wish Stack Overflow to grow strong in the years to come. But when there is a cause, there is an effect.

Shog9 and Robert Cartaino's departure further shows that company is unwilling to hear from the community.

You think it's okay to upset your regular users? Yes, you could probably upset a few users, causing them to leave without having any effect on the site. But when there is a mass exodus of your high rep users, there is an effect - few people will be there to answer questions from all your new users. When new users find out their questions will likely to go unanswered on this site, they will pay fewer visits on this site, if not stopping altogether.

With much reduced traffic, your next round of fund raising with the VCs will be hard if not impossible. Selling to corporate users will also likely be harder when you are rolling down the slope.

So, please, before it's too late!

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    I fear that ship has sailed. One part of me even hopes the ship has sailed.
    – GhostCat
    Jan 14, 2020 at 13:07
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    It is already too late. Nine shogs too late, to be precise. Jan 14, 2020 at 13:48
  • 44
    I see one problem with the image. It should read "Welcome! Demolition work in progress! No hats required!" instead of the "Danger" warning. Jan 14, 2020 at 15:28
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    @gnat That's precisely it. The downfall began when the focus shifted from programming to socially engineering the profession of programming. Jan 14, 2020 at 16:45
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    @user560822 Can you elaborate on what you mean by "socially engineering the profession"? I do not follow.
    – user47589
    Jan 14, 2020 at 18:23
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    @Amy It's much too complex an issue to properly address in comments. But it began with the "welcoming" debacle, which was a symptom of a vicious cycle of using the pursuit of diversity as an (insulting and unnecessary) excuse to dumb things down in a cynical attempt to meet exponentially increasing demand for developers, which in turn is a result of compounding technical debt created by the false economy of hiring cheap, dumb developers. This is a tech bubble, and it's going to be much harder to recover from than mere irrational exuberance. Jan 14, 2020 at 18:51
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    @Amy Another interpretation is that SO has been taken over by ideologues who are pursuing diversity as an end in itself. That's always a mistake. Equal opportunity is the goal; diversity is the metric. Jan 14, 2020 at 19:04
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    There is a fallacy in your logic @GeoffGriswald. First, You assume new people (or robots) would automatically fill the gap and provide as good answers to questions if old regular users are leaving in force. Second, you assume that those new people would not become feeling as entitled as current super contributors/mods if they contribute as much.
    – TelKitty
    Jan 16, 2020 at 1:15
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    @GeoffGriswald this belief about fresh blood was quite popular in the past. And many were wondering why following it tends to break things instead of improving, until Clay Shirky posted an article explaining why things don't work that way. Stack Overflow founders were probably among first who decided to give a try to alternative approach proposed in this article and it turned out to work fairly well until recent
    – gnat
    Jan 16, 2020 at 9:56
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    @GeoffGriswald Your assumptions are fatally flawed. Stack Overflow of today is no longer a site that experts want to be on because it is perpetually flooded with barely-literate "questions" that could be solved by 5 minutes of Googling. Experts don't have the time or patience to slog through mountains of sand to try to find a single pearl - so the old ones stop contributing, and the new ones quickly learn that their expertise is less valued than their ability to answer "gimme teh codez" questions, and they stop contributing. What you're left with is a wasteland.
    – Ian Kemp
    Jan 17, 2020 at 14:41
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    @GeoffGriswald Further, you're completely ignoring the fact that Stack Overflow's success is due in a massive part to the community of experts who have given their time and effort to curate the site, both in the form of moderation and by building tools that have become fundamental to its operation. Many of those experts are leaving or are no longer interested in continuing to maintain those tools when the community of which they are a part is actively being destroyed by the site's owners. The "new blood" of SO is wholly uninterested in that maintenance.
    – Ian Kemp
    Jan 17, 2020 at 14:48
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    @GeoffGriswald: Shog was an employee. He did so much more than simply "moderate" the site. SE was his full-time job.
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 21, 2020 at 13:46
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    You grossly misjudge me. Ironically, this is the usual approach by users that are "hating" on the "old guard". Complain, tell the old guard they're not reading, and resorting to ad-hominem replies when they can not come up with a proper reply.
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 21, 2020 at 14:43
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    @GeoffGriswald: Mostly, you seem to be trolling. That's the main reason you're using another account. Jan 29, 2020 at 14:59
103

Shog no longer being here is, well, unacceptable.

I am kind of caught between wanting to honor him and wanting to verbally lash whoever thought it was a good idea to let this type of talent walk out the door.

Shog is one of the most profound influencers for this space, and is invaluable. His insights are pure gold.

It is time for the Board of Directors to completely clean house on the decision makers of the company if this is the type of decisions they are making.

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    Hopefully the two ex-employees will come back [in case if they did not get another job] Jan 14, 2020 at 22:27
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    @Mulligan with still Reinstating Monica in their name: we're entering delusional territory here. Time for you to enter the second stage -- anger. Jan 14, 2020 at 22:33
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    @MulliganᛜReinstatingMonica They did not leave of their own free will.
    – S.S. Anne
    Jan 15, 2020 at 1:10
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    Spolsky is the chairman and ultimately behind all of it. No sane person will buy the shares so he and other board members are stuck with them. So until they finally go bankrupt, nothing will change. The site is dead since many months back.
    – Lundin
    Jan 15, 2020 at 7:33
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    @Lundin or the potential buyer just requested the diminution of the number of employees as a condition for buying Stack Exchange.
    – Cœur
    Jan 15, 2020 at 13:13
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    @MulliganᛜReinstatingMonica Would you willing return to an employer that fired you? They'll have no trouble finding better work.
    – user229044 Mod
    Jan 15, 2020 at 18:01
  • @meagar Nope. However, they manner they were let go is nevertheless really controversial. Jan 15, 2020 at 18:27
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    Comments are not for extended discussion; a protracted conversation has been moved to chat. Feb 1, 2020 at 6:11
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At first I just assumed that those in leadership just didn't truly understand the impact their decisions where having on the community.

Now I realize that they actually have some sort of agenda. I'm sure there will be a lot more surprises in the coming years, *sigh*. I guess I'll just lay low until Codidact is ready. It's kind of interesting watching everything unfold, but at the same time it's very sad, and I'm quickly losing what faith I have left in Stack Exchange Inc.

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    What makes you think Codidact is going to succeed? I've seen multiple users mention it over the last few days, but there hasn't exactly been very much progress since they started months ago...
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 15, 2020 at 13:05
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    @Cerbrus If the quality of SO content is decreasing further, more and more people will try to create an alternative and at some point one of these attempts might succeed. I guess that some people put hope in codidact so that it may be the one, but it doesn't have to really and nobody knows really. I think about supporting them, if only financially. It seems to be a worthy cause. Jan 15, 2020 at 14:48
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    What about the dozens of existing clones with actually functioning Q&A, @Trilarion? Why not support a project that actually has a working site? Because they don't have the content or userbase to be of significance?
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 15, 2020 at 14:51
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    @Cerbrus That's a good question. I would restrict my support to open source clones just to make sure I don't end up in the same situation like here, but I fully agree that instead of reinventing from the scratch one should carefully evaluate all the existing alternatives. I did not do that yet, but would it needs to be done. Jan 15, 2020 at 14:55
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    @Cerbrus I remember that I glanced quickly at some examples listed at Are there any clones/alternatives for running a Stack Exchange style Q&A site? some time ago and found none really convincing. But improving an existing software might still be more worthwhile than starting from scratch. Jan 15, 2020 at 14:56
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    One of the major flaws with codidact's process, imo. They've started from scratch. The project was set up back when Monica-gate happened, and they just now added the first actual code... Which is barely anything more than a template project. Waaay too much politics behind the scenes and too little getting things done.
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 15, 2020 at 14:58
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    @Cerbrus How much time would you give them to develop something usable before giving up on them? I think a couple of months is the minimum that one should wait at least. Jan 15, 2020 at 15:00
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    Well, barebones functioning Q&A shouln’t take more than a week to set up, for a single developer.
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 15, 2020 at 15:01
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    @Cerbrus Ok. I see. Their progress is not as good as you would expect it. Jan 15, 2020 at 15:03
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    That's the gist of it. They also seem too focused on the politics of it.
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 15, 2020 at 15:07
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    @Trilarion 6 to 8 weeks ...
    – rene
    Jan 15, 2020 at 15:27
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    Development started 2 days ago -- forum.codidact.org/t/development-is-go/561. topanswers.xyz/databases was created in a week, and it looks like crap. Codidact is being more meticulous than that. I believe they have spent an appropriate amount of time in their design phase, and they have quite a lot of people who will be contributing to the project. I don't think the majority of people are going to just suddenly start using Codidact, but I do believe they will create a viable alternative to SO, and I will be using them once they do. Jan 15, 2020 at 16:50
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    That 6 to 8 weeks time frame sounds way too small to me. This is an open source project being put together in people's free time, and there are a lot of components to a system like this: core dynamics, reputation/rewards system, moderation system, search system, frontend layout, database schema, user registration system, etc. These all have to be discussed, agreed upon, and implemented before an MVP can be considered ready. Edit: And I do understand that they have already been at this for some time. Jan 15, 2020 at 17:15
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    Re: how long it "should" take... It took Jeff and whoever was working with him at the time six months or thereabouts before they were ready to go public with SO v1.0 (blog.codinghorror.com/choosing-your-own-adventure is dated March 2008, SO launched that fall).
    – jscs
    Jan 15, 2020 at 18:34
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    @wp-overwatch.com: "6 to 8 weeks"
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 16, 2020 at 7:48

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