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This meta question was asked the night of Christmas Eve.

It

  • does not appear to be about Stack Overflow or the software that powers the Stack Exchange network, within the scope defined in the help center.
  • does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community.

As of this writing, 15 community members spent their time voting to close it, because it's our duty. (post timeline)

A single elected moderator used their given power to single-handedly dismiss these users' work.

Being a witness of all this, I raised a moderator flag about my concerns, asking for clarifications about the situation, who knows, we might all 15 apparently quite "trusted" users be wrong.

Here is the text of my flag asking for either clarifications, either some definitive action:

This post is clearly off-topic but 11 community members which used their vote to close don't seem enough to get rid of it... Can a moderator come in and either explain how we were all wrong closing it, either finally close it, for good. – Kaiido 5 hours ago

declined - It is not even close to being off-topic.

I'm sorry, I might be low on something, I definitely have issues with English, I'm also tired of dealing with drunk people IRL in these festy days and of having to work today, so I might miss the obvious, but how does that "explains" anything of my concerns or takes any concrete action on it?

So I ask here very clearly, unfortunately openly because you made me do it,

Can a moderator tell me how is this question on-topic?

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    Meh, I cast one of the votes (not seeking discussion indeed), but I'm not bothered with the post. Why it has been unilaterally reopened is a question I'd also be curious about, but let's not lose sleep over it. Dec 26, 2019 at 13:14
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    Meta posts are the usual way to ask why something is or isn’t on topic. I don’t see why it would be a problem for this to be a public discussion.
    – BSMP
    Dec 26, 2019 at 15:26
  • This is probably off-topic but a few times over the years I have seen questions closed that seemed perfectly reasonable to me. So I decided to "vote" to reopen. I click on reopen and poof, the question is instantly reopened. As far as I know I am not a moderator and certainly not an elected moderator unless elections are being held which are so secret that even the winners are not notified. Can't help but wonder if some other more or less innocent bystander did the same to the question in question. And no, I never click on reopen anymore.
    – Cerad
    Dec 26, 2019 at 15:37
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    @Cerad Could be coincidence that you contributed the final reopen vote. Or you have a gold badge and you're reopening a duplicate. In this case, it was no innocent bystander; just look at the timeline. Dec 26, 2019 at 16:04
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    I never expected my 'question' to last past Christmas day and, besides, I was totally ratted when I wrote it in the pub. It's obviously off-topic and I tried to delete it on Xmas day, but someone had answered it. Today, the answer was deleted and my Xmas card had garnered two delete votes. I administered the coup-de-grace.. Dec 26, 2019 at 17:30
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    @MartinJames thanks for your words and actions. Unfortunately, your post was only part of the context for mine. The real issues still stand: What made this single moderator repeatedly go against the action of the community? What made (I hope) an other moderator decline my flag with what my sensible affect makes me feel like borderline insult to my cognitive abilities?
    – Kaiido
    Dec 27, 2019 at 0:33
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    @psubsee2003: "Abuse" feels like a strong word there...Of all the posts to get into a reopen fight with the community about, this one is actually fairly innocuous as opposed to something even worse. I don't disagree with you that the question really didn't deserve to be reopened. But I'm not calling what happened there "abuse".
    – Makoto
    Dec 27, 2019 at 2:24
  • @Makoto you are correct, abuse was definately over the top. But i just hate seeing questions reopened that the community repeatly closed since this is supposed to be a community moderated site. Although, seeing the example Cody linked in his answer, it is not as cut and dry as it seems when the mods need to keep reopening stuff Dec 27, 2019 at 15:04

2 Answers 2

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I am not a moderator, but I was one of the close-voters. The only problem I had with this post after reading it, was which of these 2 off-topic reasons to use. This question did not seek any input and it was not directly related to Stack Overflow. Even if some large percentage of the community celebrates Christmas, such post is not relevant for Meta of Stack overflow. If we wanted to do this for all the celebrations across the world, we would need to have such posts all year round with titles such as: "Hanukkah Sameach!", "Happy Diwali!", "Happy new year!", "Happy Chinese new year!", "Happy Easter!", "Happy Halloween!", "Happy Ridvan!", and so on... Such posts are just noise and are not useful on a professional website.

Personally I have been feeling attacked by Christmas this year. I have spent a good amount of time removing noise from posts on Stack Overflow containing "Merry Christmas", "Merry XMas" and "Happy new year" in a past few days, only to come to Meta and see a whole thread dedicated to such noise.

For what it's worth, I am not saying that whoever celebrates Christmas can't spread a little joy around, but that question was pure noise and should be closed. Stack Overflow is not a place for religious celebrations.

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    While this is an interesting and relevant perspective that I had not considered, I think this ship has sailed. Winter Bash and blog posts show clearly that this website celebrates the winter holiday season. So, while I’m sorry if that smacks of religious oppression to you (it really shouldn’t; Christmas is barely even a religious holiday in the West), that isn’t something that I would consider in determining whether a question is on-topic. You are also blending together SO and Meta here. Meta isn’t the same sort of professional site that main is. Noise in posts doesn’t belong on main, ever. Dec 29, 2019 at 1:22
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    @CodyGray that's exactly why I am surprised you did handle that flag yourself. It may happen you didn't consider all the aspects that lead to a flag about a situation you were personally involved in, that's only human and entirely understandable. But given your answer to the question #2 of 2017's moderators elections, I thought you were fully conscious of this human bias.
    – Kaiido
    Dec 29, 2019 at 4:56
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Welcome to Meta. The rules are a bit different here. In particular, we allow open-ended discussion about topics that are related to Stack Overflow. So…yes, the "question" was absolutely on-topic by Meta standards.

You cite the following two guidelines:

  • does not appear to be about Stack Overflow or the software that powers the Stack Exchange network, within the scope defined in the help center.

  • does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community.

waving your hands as if the question self-evidently meets both of those criteria. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. To me, the question was self-evidently about Stack Overflow—in particular, about the Stack Overflow community. Which naturally means that it was soliciting discussion from the community.

These "off-topic" close reasons exist on Meta sites to allow closing programming questions, support questions for sites other than Stack Overflow, and completely irrelevant nonsense like that. They're not meant to shut down discussion about issues relevant to the site, even those that don't look much like traditional questions, like "thank you", complaints, and so on.

The accusation of "abuse" got bandied about in the comments. You want to talk about "abuse"? Sure, let's do that. Let's talk about people who abuse their close votes on Meta to shut down discussions that they personally disagree with, like the people who keep closing this announcement. Labeling that announcement as either off-topic or opinion-based is either an attempt to make a statement or is motivated by such a myopic interpretation of the rules that I don't even have any further words to address it.

Furthermore, it's not "abuse" when a moderator reverses a decision made by the community. This is one of the jobs of the moderators. The mob doesn't always get it right. You have the right to disagree, but not to label it as abuse or anything untoward. Or to interpret the disagreement of a moderator as an insult to your cognitive abilities.

Moderator flags aren't the correct place to get a reasoned discussion. If nothing else, there's a character limit placed on our responses, which I run into all the time under normal circumstances. I certainly am not going to try and provide an exhaustive explanation of my reasoning. Your flag asked a moderator to take a look at something and see if there was a problem that merited moderator attention. There wasn't, which is why the flag was declined.

Aside from all that, I'm pretty miffed at the reaction here. We've had a lot of negativity on Meta over the past year. Putting aside whether or not the negativity was justified, someone wanted to post something positive for a change, and you decided to come out with the pitchforks and accusations. I decided to let us have a little bit of Christmas cheer. Shoot me. I would stand up for a "question" like that on Meta on a normal day.

Related reading: Why we should allow open-ended discussions about Winter Bash (and other topics) on Meta, rather than in chat

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    Trying to drown us with your holiday spirit and whatnot. We won't stand for this, you tyrant. /s
    – yivi
    Dec 27, 2019 at 11:32
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    Well, I drowned plenty of things this year with holiday spirits, but it wasn't you all. :-) Dec 27, 2019 at 11:35
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    While I agree with bringing some Christmas spirits into MSO (cheers), that "question" was meh at best, and after the second or so close-reopen cycle it would have just been time to let it go.
    – deceze Mod
    Dec 27, 2019 at 11:42
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    Meh. I agree in the abstract that close votes get used inappropriately on Meta. I don't at all agree about this particular case, though. The question was simply a Christmas greeting; it was "about the Stack Overflow community" only in the sense that it was wishing a Merry Christmas to us specifically. That feels like the same kind of tenuous claim to topicality as the infamous "programming on a boat" question on Stack Overflow, and could be used to justify pretty much anything being on-topic on Meta. "My viagra pills are perfect for Stack Overflow users!" "Stack Overflow users, join my cult!"
    – Mark Amery
    Dec 27, 2019 at 12:06
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    If nothing else, as a simple matter of diplomacy, you could've just... been a bit nicer in the rejection reason? I don't want to claim any special insight into Kaiido's soul, but if the reason had read "I don't see any harm in allowing one post trying to inject a little bit of warmth and positivity here at Christmas, even if it's not particularly topical or valuable", I suspect he would've left it there rather than feeling affronted enough to ask a question about it.
    – Mark Amery
    Dec 27, 2019 at 12:09
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    Funny that @MarkAmery mentions "Stack Overflow users, join my cult!" in their comment; that's kind of how I feel being told "Merry Christmas" 10000 times every winter, despite the fact that I am not a Christian. Maybe we can leave religion off Meta? Dec 27, 2019 at 14:14
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    @Heretic Username checks out.
    – deceze Mod
    Dec 27, 2019 at 15:31
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    @MartinJames needs a breathalyzer attached to his Stack Overflow-enabled devices ;). Dec 27, 2019 at 19:29
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    I don't understand what makes you think I want to talk about "abuse". It took me quite an effort to not call out for this explicitly, neither in my flag nor in my question, despite my emotive state at these times. Once again, I'm sorry you made me make it a public affair. I don't understand why after the first reopening you didn't protect that question or add a notice to it or even just a comment - "explaining" that it should stay open. That's all my flag asked for, a simple message so the community don't lose their and your time fighting for a drunk message.
    – Kaiido
    Dec 28, 2019 at 2:14
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    I don't understand how come you handled that flag that was about your behavior, a-priori without talking with your fellow moderators even though one of these mods posted a comment on the flagged post a few minutes before you handled that flag. I don't understand how I have not the right to "interpret" anything as I feel. If that's so, go ahead and ban my account. Because when I think and say "This is clearly X" and that the other end tells me "This is not even close to be X", I feel the other end is taking me for an idiot.
    – Kaiido
    Dec 28, 2019 at 2:15
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    I have neither the time nor the inclination to continue arguing about this. I've made my case already for why I think the question was appropriate and on-topic, and thus why it deserved to remain open. I still strongly believe that is true under normal circumstances, but especially since it was the holiday season. I felt that the flag decline message I wrote would be more clear than a canned reason. I don't know why you or anyone else interpreted it as offensive or harsh; I think that's incredibly unfair. The decline reason was a mere statement of opinion, albeit short by necessity. Dec 28, 2019 at 6:13
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    I grow incredibly tired of people resorting to stuff like "go ahead and ban my account" because they find themselves disagreeing with a decision made by a moderator. This is what I mean when I claim that you do not have the right to take offense at someone having a different opinion than you. It isn't personal. It isn't a conspiracy. If you wanted to flag my behavior, then flag my behavior. You asked for "a moderator". Last I checked, I was a moderator. There is nothing more I can say here that's going to convince people who have already made up their mind. I'm not going to change mine, either Dec 28, 2019 at 6:15
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    @CodyGray As a moderator, you're called to a higher standard. If you don't want people to take things personally, don't bring your personal feelings into it (like how "miffed" you are). And I hope you can see the hypocrisy of complaining about people saying things like "go ahead and ban my account" when you included "shoot me" in your answer. At least be consistent, rather than applying one standard to others and a different one to yourself.
    – jpmc26
    Dec 28, 2019 at 20:59
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    On the issue itself, attempting to be "positive" is not sufficient justification for a post to be on topic. Positive and negative are irrelevant to whether a question belongs on the site it was posted in; you don't see either one in the on-topic help article. Using positivity as a justification for leaving the question is a flood gate we do not want opened because it's harmful to the community's ability to maintain question quality.
    – jpmc26
    Dec 28, 2019 at 21:04
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    @Kaiido I don't believe in enumerating rules. Rather, I believe in using common sense. In my opinion, that question was clearly about Stack Overflow and/or its community of users, and it was not an unconstructive rant that needed to go away by any means necessary. Those are the types of questions that the two close reasons you identified are intended to deal with, respectively. I guess I could kind of see an argument that wishing one's fellow contributors well doesn't solicit input/discussion, but I think it does, just as much as Thomas Weller's question that I linked does. Dec 29, 2019 at 4:58

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