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You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

Questions: No downvoting.

It's a scale shift with brain candy: don't highlight how "awful" something is–just leave it be.

Question Feedback:

Provide an official mechanism for partialy-automated question feedback.

While many of us are running macros/expanders to provide friendly, measured feedback, why not just have some UX to plug that stuff in, SE-wide, with useful and relevant links, instead of relying on a hodgepodge of ad-hoc solutions or idownvotedbecause etc.?

Answers: A mechanisms to indicate accuracy/correctness/suitability is required.

Couch votes in different language like works/doesn't work or agree/disagree.

Some mechanism for weighting voter input could also be put into place, e.g., "I'm an expert on this, and this answer is the best" etc. Clearly there is handwaving here, but with the amount of data we have about our answerers, it seems like at least a step in this direction could be taken.

Pie in the Sky: Proportional voting.

A wall of roughly-equal-vote answers doesn't mean they're equivalent. While it'd require more discipline, it would also surface most-agreed-upon solutions, especially when votes are close.

Edit The "dupe" addresses only the downvote feedback question. This question/conversation calls for the elimination or modification of downvoting altogether.

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  • 22
    No downvoting So everything can only be neutral or positive? Life just ain't like that my friend, song or no song :/
    – Clive
    Oct 18, 2019 at 15:47
  • 4
    I appreciate that fact you're trying to offer ways to improve, but when you write "just leave it be," it makes me wonder if you've seen the horrors inside the Triage or VLQ queue recently. Some things can't just be left as they are (fix, edit, remove, whatever, but not "meh"). Oct 18, 2019 at 15:48
  • 1
    "It's a scale shift with brain candy: don't highlight how "awful" something is–just leave it be." .. this has been asked/request before and wasn't that successful at that. Why do you expect a different result now? "why not just have some UX to plug that stuff in, SE-wide, with useful and relevant links" The position of SE/SO Inc is that they don't like copy/paste text written under many questions containing links to a lot of information which may or may not apply to the post at hand. They see that as unwelcoming, so I don't think you'll get that feature implemented.
    – Tom
    Oct 18, 2019 at 15:54
  • 9
    While we're at it, lets replace upvoting with hearts. SO will become the new twitter. Oct 18, 2019 at 15:58
  • 8
    Most definitely show how awful a bad question / answer is - that is the entire purpose of a Q&A site - to surface good questions and good answers and to bury bad ones so that visitors can find reliable information on the topic they research. Neutering downvotes would deny visitors this possibility by making posters of bad questions / answers feel good about themselves.
    – xxbbcc
    Oct 18, 2019 at 16:02
  • @Tom The point is explicitly to provide relevant links. Hell, we can't even link to relevant sections in the help pages. Oct 18, 2019 at 16:05
  • 5
    I just came here after seeing this question. For the record, the entirety of the question is "I want a bar on my website. For e-mail. Please use only HTML, CSS and JS. And I want the email to be written to domain.xyz/subs.txt". I very heartily disagree that it shouldn't be downvoted.
    – VLAZ
    Oct 18, 2019 at 16:14
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    The problem with requiring a link to elsewhere is the presumption that the feedback will actually be read. We're already shovelling introductions and familiarization text in front of new users, where they have to acknowledge they've read it. Spoiler: they didn't. They're not going to read these links, either. The ones that would, already try to familiarize themselves. The drive to improve has to come from within, not beaten into them with a bat.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 16:23
  • 3
    A down-vote is fine if you know what it means. SE needs to invest time and effort into teaching folks that a down-vote means bad content and not people piling on the OP. Removing the down-vote option won't solve anything.
    – Script47
    Oct 18, 2019 at 16:27
  • 4
    The resources are provided. Granted, we can make it easier to find, but at no point are they not there. You're perpetuating the age-old myth that downvotes are hostile, and don't see the very real value they provide. Downvoting is, by far, one of the most important things you can do. They likely save future readers far more time than upvoting ever would.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 16:27
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    @DaveNewton we have a tour and the help docs. If you can't be bothered looking through them then you shouldn't complain if you receive a bad reception (down-votes and close-votes).
    – Script47
    Oct 18, 2019 at 16:30
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    @DaveNewton nope, once again, that's not what I'm saying. You talk about being helpful yet you throw veiled insults at me ('hopefully you're not a teacher') while misconstruing what I say. At no point do I suggest they don't need help. At no point do I suggest they don't need encouragement. I do however, unequivocally, say that reworking the down-vote to prevent people from down-voting bad content will not help. As for your last point, pushing away bad content from SO will definitely help SO.
    – Script47
    Oct 18, 2019 at 17:40
  • 3
    Fundamentally, I believe you misunderstand what SO is (even with your high rep, BTW, this isn't intended as an insult, more of an observation), we're not here to mentor people, we're about collecting quality Q&A and by definition it will exclude some types of content. If as a side result people are mentored then hey, that's a good thing. But let's not make that our focus at the expense of quality.
    – Script47
    Oct 18, 2019 at 17:46
  • 1
    @DaveNewton on "educating" - so far you have not suggested anything that will not be interpreted as attack. I don't see how "doesn't work" can be considered non-offensive... or how "I'm an expert on this, and this answer is the best" is not "this @#$@# elitist does not see my answer as the bestest evar - you all suck"... Oct 18, 2019 at 18:04
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    @DaveNewton right so rather than trying to rework the voting, you'd be much better off teaching new users that down-votes are not attacks against them. Either way, I believe we're at an impasse so we'll agree to disagree (which again, is fine too).
    – Script47
    Oct 18, 2019 at 18:05

1 Answer 1

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Downvotes are important. Even discounting the systems tied to them (question bans, rate limits, etc.), downvoting is arguably one of the most important things users can do.

We can't make posters read. We can't make them post content that meet our standards. What we can do is ensure that future readers know that the post has problems. That is one of the very reasons SO exists; to save future readers the pain of sifting the chaff from the wheat, increase the signal to noise ratio.

Bad content is noise. Removing downvotes does nothing to further that goal; all it does is make it harder for future readers to figure out what's good and what isn't. And before you argue that zero scored posts do that, no, it doesn't. It can mean that, but it can just as easily mean nobody has seen it. There's no way to tell. On the scale of SO, there's not nearly enough people to sift through all the new posts and try to curate them. There's even less time to actually constructively provide feedback to all of them to help the poster.

Downvotes are not for the poster. They need to have the drive to put in effort themselves to improve. We can't instill that. Downvotes are for the future readers, so that their time is spent as productively as possible.

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  • This essentially reiterates your viewpoint that askers cannot be reformed, so the best thing we can do is hope that future askers see those bad questions and know what to do (and not to do). My viewpoint is that most askers can be reformed (and I've seen it happen), and that providing tools to aid in that reformation is net positive. Oct 18, 2019 at 17:36
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    Personal responsibility is exactly that. The tools are there; they're just required to pick them up themselves. We're not here to help the asker; that's never been the goal. Making it so only destroys the site as we know it. It's not about reformation; it's about looking beyond the poster to who else can be helped by the post.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 17:39
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    @DaveNewton To add to this answer (which I think is good) - bad content is not just noise - it could be misleading to someone who doesn't know better. Bad content is poison and downvotes serve as an indicator to others of this agreement of the community. This has nothing to do with reforming anyone - after posting a downvoted question, the poster is not forbidden from posting better ones.
    – xxbbcc
    Oct 18, 2019 at 17:42
  • @fbueckert I'm saying we should help the asker: that extends beyond the merely technical. I don't see anything wrong with trying to help someone as a person as well as answering technical questions. In fact I think it's important that SO helps produce better developers, which extends beyond just being able to make something work. Oct 18, 2019 at 17:59
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    I'm saying there's too many askers to help them. It's a losing proposition to try; you're just going to burn yourself out in the process. Posters are required to meet our standards, and not meeting them is feedback that has to be provided. We're trying to build a castle out of cabinets, not a blanket fort. One lasts for the day, the other for centuries. It takes more exacting engineering to build for the long term, and that's what we're doing.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 18:01
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    @DaveNewton I used to add comments to questions when I downvoted them but I stopped when I got serial downvoted or yelled at. It didn't happen many times but I don't think I'm obligated to help out scum so now I just downvote. You're right, it's not very educational but there are some people that can't be helped. It's a sad fact.
    – xxbbcc
    Oct 18, 2019 at 18:15
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    @DaveNewton People actively disliking SO's personality because we enforce standards is something I am eminently willing to live with. We have a bar. People have to meet that bar. shrug Not our job to make it lower because there's more people that can't meet it than can. I'm not willing to have to spend more effort on people than they're willing to spend on themselves.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 18:32
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    Downvotes are not, "dickish". They're not hostile. They're not toxic. They are curation. How, pray tell, should we be enforcing standards that doesn't hit one of the endless suggestions to add comments to downvotes? I've established that downvotes are required, so you can't just throw out the primary curation tool, either. Both of those are dead horses.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 18:54
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    At the end of the day, I believe everyone has a responsibility to own their actions. That is sometimes an unpleasant feeling, but necessary to grow and learn. Trying to eliminate feedback so that people don't feel bad does them a massive disservice. Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 19:22
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    I wonder what would happen if I described the LGBT+ demographics as hostile, toxic, dickish etc? I would probably be suspended forever. It seems that the CoC only protects some groups and that flaying curators is just fine. Inclusivity? Bah, humbug... Oct 18, 2019 at 20:05
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    @DaveNewton Feedback is meant for the post, not the poster. Education is not, and should not, be a requirement. We treat everyone as an adult here; they're expected to be responsible for their own actions. They don't get a pass because they decided they don't have to read or follow the rules. The focus on the user you have isn't the focus we have. I don't think it's small minded, but thanks for the backhanded insult?
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 20:11
  • 2
    @DaveNewton I, and no doubt many others, would be only too happy to look up and regurgitate rules, policy, 'Computers 101' knowledge etc. The only issue I see is that SO has no mechanism for paying for researchers and elementary level teachers to assist with one-on-one training. A skilled and experienced developer would want ~$50/hr for their time. Oct 18, 2019 at 20:12
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    The point of downvotes has never been to educate. I don't know how often I need to say that. It's not supposed to educate. It's supposed to denote a user's judgement of the value of the post. That's it, that's all. We tie it into other systems to help ensure that feedback gets recognized, but that's what it's for. Not to tell someone they have to improve. Not to salve some indignation that users don't have to paint a target on their backs to justify that judgement. Education is not, and has never been, the goal.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 18, 2019 at 20:32
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    Consider that we already don't get enough curation to deal with the flood of poorly thought out questions SO gets. Anything that makes curation take more effort - like say mandatory downvote explanation - won't get more people educated. It'll result in people doing less curation. Oct 18, 2019 at 20:34
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    @DaveNewton I can answer questions, or not. Nobody is trying to force me to spend powers-of-10 more time on something than that required for a downvote click. You are suggesting a mandatory control over volunteered effort. You want 'someone else' to do the grunt work of reading rules etc. No defense is needed against such a suggestion, since it is plainly bad. Oct 19, 2019 at 4:42

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