-20

I posted a question to which I already had an answer, to invite curiosity and thoughtful alternatives - but it was quickly derailed by a series of comments that, put simply, cast my question as illegitimate in light of commenters' own lack of knowledge.

The first comment (/commenter, FC) raised a legitimate caveat, which I fixed immediately - following, my question was well-defined and had an exact answer. Despite this, FC received 4 upvotes, and my question 2 downvotes shortly-after.

I'll spare a prolonged narrative on the human psychology involved here, but in summary, FC ultimately manufactured a false impression of illegitimacy of my question; it's easier to think that a question is poorly-posed when its score is -2 and its critic's is +4, and the critic's rep is 40k when yours is 1k. It at the least entirely defeats the mentioned purpose of the question, and directs discussion toward proving me wrong in the comments rather than thinking of solutions. If this isn't convincing, I can link several questions that perform vastly worse per criterion I'm accused of, yet are much better received by community - so it is unfair treatment.

A resolution I'd be content with is deleting the question entirely and retrying another time - but that isn't allowed, as "others have invested time and effort into answering it." With a bit further unluck, this question'd be downvoted further, and reopening another would be marked as a duplicate or closed entirely - so the question is effectively destroyed.


SO should be, and often is, a place of thoughtful discussion - but when it isn't, it shouldn't be at the permanent expense of the question. What can be done?


UPDATE: Now I'd no longer consider the question "derailed", as it's gotten two upvotes and 'fresher' attention short-after I asked this question (thanks) - and while I may post an answer to the question as originally intended, this (meta) question remains open

UPDATE 2: Another "psychology" factor worth noting - I'm now being held to much higher standards than a plethora questions I could link with better community responses. The ideas is, not all rules are strictly enforced, and sometimes that's good - but a simple option to delete your own question if it gets an unfair response would solve this problem.

UPDATE 3: This question, too, derailed away from "how to restore a derailed question" to criticizing my character. Per Update 2, users appear to be missing the point of ideal vs. practical - could I have worded my question "perfectly", 3x as long, so as to make it immune to attacks? Yes. The idea of "cooperation", however, is to reasonably interpret the question and ask clarification, not seek loopholes by which to illegitimatize it. But when it does happen, there should be ways to restore it other than via "publicity" as I have now - e.g. delete question, ask another time.

15
  • 15
    "SO should be, and often is, a place of thoughtful discussion" - I think your premise here is flawed, SO is not a place for discussion, it's not a forum. Discussion, by itself, is actually discouraged here (SO). If a comment pointed out a "legitimate caveat, which I (you) fixed immediately", the comment is "No Longer Needed", which you can flag it for, and the comment will be removed after some time. Oct 1, 2019 at 14:35
  • @GrumpyCrouton Wasn't sure which exact word to use, but this and this have a close-enough gist - there are many others with +1000 upvotes; the idea's to get a diversity of solutions and invite critical thought Oct 1, 2019 at 14:41
  • 5
    I don't know if I would call a question at -2 "derailed". You've received four answers already. Yes, sometimes bad luck happens and you lose some rep, but it's not even 5 rep lost here from those two downvotes. I would not be upset to trade a few reputation points for four answers to questions when I have them, personally. And anyway, your question is at +3/-2 when I click on it, so it seems reports of its destruction were greatly exaggerated.
    – TylerH
    Oct 1, 2019 at 14:42
  • @GrumpyCrouton "flag if no longer needed" - that's great to know, thanks Oct 1, 2019 at 14:43
  • 2
    @OverLordGoldDragon this question you linked to may have 0 downvotes, but it does have votes to close as opinion based and equal upvotes to yours. This question you linked to has the same amount of downvotes as yours, and only 1 additional upvote. I also don't think you should assume other peoples voting patterns are based on the comment on your question, you never know why anyone downvotes. Oct 1, 2019 at 14:43
  • @GrumpyCrouton Their net-scores were never negative, nor comments as discouraging - and while I don't have a mind-reader, the first-impressions effect can be clear Oct 1, 2019 at 14:46
  • 1
    Some people don't like code golf-like questions, especially when answers are kibitzed (your comment to juanpa.arrivillaga's answer about it being "far from the simplest solution" is particularly telling). There's actually a site for that: Code Golf. Oct 1, 2019 at 14:46
  • On a site the scale of SO, there will be people who vote for wrong reasons. But..... If contributors could stop IMMEDIATELY thinking anyone downvoting them does it without (valid) reason... A lot of people's first experience or SO would be immensely better
    – Patrice
    Oct 1, 2019 at 14:48
  • 4
    'it's easier to think that a question is poorly-posed when its score is -2 and its critic's is +4, and the critic's rep is 40k when yours is 1k.' - Nope, that bears no relevance.
    – Script47
    Oct 1, 2019 at 15:05
  • If any of you could suggest a word better than "discussion" to express what I clarified in these comments, that'd be great Oct 1, 2019 at 15:18
  • 1
    @Script47 It shouldn't, but it does. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:19
  • 3
    @OverLordGoldDragon it does? I have a post here and here where I went "up against" two high rep users and somehow managed to "win". If you were correct, I definitely wouldn't have.
    – Script47
    Oct 1, 2019 at 15:23
  • 3
    @OverLordGoldDragon fine... I'll bite. Where is your proof that rep bears relevance? I've provided mine that it doesn't now it's your turn.
    – Script47
    Oct 1, 2019 at 15:37
  • 2
    @OverLordGoldDragon I've deleted most of my comments here as they are very noisy considering you seem to refuse to accept any feedback if it doesn't directly confirm what you believe is the correct perception, so the comments are useless (as is the question). To me, it seems like you came here to argue (and not provide proof of your standpoint, while being upset about being "challenged" because of them) and not for feedback. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:57
  • It's an okay question. The first comment is a bit overly critical concerning rather border cases, but one should always remember that what really counts are the questions and answers.
    – Trilarion
    Oct 1, 2019 at 16:09

3 Answers 3

14

Now I'd no longer consider the question "derailed", as it's gotten two upvotes and 'fresher' attention short-after I asked this question

Comments do not "derail" a question. Nor do downvotes. Questions are about the subject detailed in the question. The only thing that would "derail" a question is changing the actual question into a completely different one. Which you didn't do.

So the problem is not about whether the question is "derailed" or not; it's about whether it was liked by the community. Well, that's ultimately up to the community to decide. And if there is an answer with upvotes, you don't get to delete a question just because the community did not think it was appropriate.

So the way you "restore" such a question is to either fix it as advised in the comments, or to just leave it as is if you feel the comments are unwarranted. If the comments are indeed unwarranted as deemed by others, things will eventually balance themselves out.

16
  • "Comments do not derail a question. Nor do downvotes" - yes, they do (did). Illegitimatizing a question with false accusations of "can't be done" and "poor question" will bury the question - and instead of users learning something useful, they're left with false impressions on what's possible in Python. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:25
  • 5
    @OverLordGoldDragon on 106 views (a lot probably coming since you posted this meta question), 4 people (+ those who upvoted these comments) commented about not understanding, or misinterpreting your question. Is it possible it's not as clear/obvious as you think it is? If a lot of ppl see your question and don't "get" its intent.... could it maybe be improved to be more obvious? Is that derailing, or is that trying to help to make it as useful as it can be?
    – Patrice
    Oct 1, 2019 at 15:45
  • @Patrice I responded each of the questions to my question, except one implying my question's 'asking too much' (ivan_pozdeev) - wasn't much to say there, ideological disagreement on question mechanics. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:49
  • 3
    @OverLordGoldDragon I think the problem is more a misunderstanding on what you think SO is for, how it works, and what the rules are. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:50
  • @GrumpyCrouton Well, I did ask for a better alternative for the word "discussion" - this appears to be what much of the heat is over Oct 1, 2019 at 15:52
  • @OverLordGoldDragon: "Illegitimatizing a question with false accusations of "can't be done" and "poor question" will bury the question" No, they don't. Comments are not as important as questions and answers. This is why we hide all but 5 comments on posts. This is why comments are limited to 600 characters. And so forth. Comments do not significantly affect the reception of a question. If your question is legitimate, the answers below the question will easily undo any misconceptions by incorrect comments. Basically, stop taking comments so seriously. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:54
  • While still active, where should I open a question as to why my answer's the less preferable out of all the answers, when it's the only one that actually answers the question (and provides an explanation)? Meta? Oct 1, 2019 at 15:54
  • 2
    @OverLordGoldDragon: That's not how SO works. You post content here; other people decide how valuable that content is. If other people think that the other answers are better than yours, then that's the way it is, and you don't get to complain about it. If an answer is actually incorrect, you can downvote it and comment on it, but that's it. You don't get to complain forever about other people's opinions about it. You also don't get to declare unilaterally that anyone who disagrees with you must not have understood the question or is not knowledgable or whatever. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:58
  • 1
    @OverLordGoldDragon did you edit your question in consequence, or did you simply reply in comments? cause the important part is for the question to be "self-contained". Once you've edited the question, you flag the comments as "no longer needed". All I see here is more of the "stack is evil" that ppl throw around when it's simply an expectation mismatch (which, to be fair, Stack does a piss poor job of setting up properly...)
    – Patrice
    Oct 1, 2019 at 16:00
  • @Patrice Did both Oct 1, 2019 at 16:02
  • @NicolBolas People can also explain their votes, unelss they're voting purely off of whims of their heart (which'd prove my point) - and I'm interested in knowing why they vote against mine when it (1) actually answers the question, (2) provides an explanation (others don't), (3) provides a working example (others don't) Oct 1, 2019 at 16:03
  • @OverLordGoldDragon then my suggestion: in the future, don't reply in comments, and simply flag those as no longer needed. But that's just me
    – Patrice
    Oct 1, 2019 at 16:04
  • 4
    @OverLordGoldDragon: "People can also explain their votes" But since they don't have to, you do not have the right to judge someone for choosing not to explain their vote. As for why they might downvote it? Well, your answer is terse, dense, and difficult to maintain. In short, it's not code that anyone should welcome seeing in their codebase. By contrast, the longer answer is much easier to digest. Oct 1, 2019 at 16:07
  • @NicolBolas They don't have to, and I'm not forcing them to - hence "where do I ask". Your explanation works, sure - but I can see many others arguing the direct opposite, as mine has half the lines, and each line is clearly explained Oct 1, 2019 at 16:10
  • 1
    btw, @Over your last edit is technically noise. It's unrelated to the question, and most editors would remove it if they see it. I don't feel like jumping into an edit war, so do what you want with it, but as per Stack's rules, anything that isn't about the technical nature of your question shouldn't be in the question. I would trash the whole "edit" paragraph. But that's up to you
    – Patrice
    Oct 1, 2019 at 16:10
11

I posted a question to which I already had an answer, to invite curiosity and thoughtful alternatives - but it was quickly derailed by a series of comments that, put simply, cast my question as illegitimate in light of commenters' own lack of knowledge.

I see no evidence that any of the commenters have a lack of knowledge. It is a common narrative to frame everything that doesn't pan out as you like to asign blame to someone else.

The first comment (/commenter, FC) raised a legitimate caveat, which I fixed immediately - following, my question was well-defined and had an exact answer. Despite this, FC received 4 upvotes, and my question 2 downvotes shortly-after.

For a tag that is as popular as python I would call yourself lucky, only 2 down votes.

I'll spare a prolonged narrative on the human psychology involved here, but in summary, FC ultimately manufactured a false impression of illegitimacy of my question; it's easier to think that a question is poorly-posed when its score is -2 and its critic's is +4, and the critic's rep is 40k when yours is 1k.

Despite popular belief voters vote on the content and not on the context. If you receive votes, it is more likely to receive an up vote than a down vote. There is no human psychology needed for that, just statistics.

It at the least entirely defeats the mentioned purpose of the question, and directs discussion toward proving me wrong in the comments rather than thinking of solutions. If this isn't convincing, I can link several questions that perform vastly worse per criterion I'm accused of, yet are much better received by community - so it is unfair treatment.

Results from the past are not a guaranteed contract for the reception of new posts and that goes for both questions and answers. What is allowed evolved over time. Questions today that read more like a work order than anything else are bound to get a bad reception.

A resolution I'd be content with is deleting the question entirely and retrying another time - but that isn't allowed, as "others have invested time and effort into answering it."

Yes, while we might think the question isn't up to par, the answers can still be useful for future visitors. And as deleting the question would destroy value that is not allowed. Not only for those that invested their time but more so for the visitors to come.

With a bit further unluck, this question'd be downvoted further, and reopening another would be marked as a duplicate or closed entirely - so the question is effectively destroyed.

Yes, correct. Questions that aren't a good fit by today standards are open for down votes and if you repost a duplicate vote is correct as your new question will have the same answers.

SO should be, and often is, a place of thoughtful discussion - but when it isn't, it shouldn't be at the permanent expense of the question.

No, we are not a place of thoughtful discussion. At least not in the guidance I read so far. Or that must have changed over night.

What can be done?

You could include which Python constructs you envisioned that would solve the issue or maybe an naive attempt. At the moment it reads more like a coding challenge than anything else. We do have a specific site for code puzzles but I'm not sure if it would fit there without some redaction.

How about doing nothing? The net reputation gain (before you came to Meta and put countless eyes on it) was still positive. Over time more users might have valued the practical problem that is behind the question and as a result might have up voted it, along with the answers. That doesn't happen over night though. Patience is key if you're convinced the question is a good enough in its current form.

5
  • You describe community responses as they should be, not as they are - denying the human emotional factor obfuscates reality. As for "useful for future visitors", that's my exact concern, not my rep - a Python expert can figure out my question, but not a relative newcomer - and latter can and will assign credibility to an existing negative response of the kind I received, and discourage further examination. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:16
  • "Results from the past are not a guaranteed contract [...] What is allowed evolved over time." This is a fair point, but I'm not sure it applies. The two examples OP has linked to so far were respectively posted just 4 and 34 hours before their own question. The difference in reception that OP is perceiving can't be explained by changing standards over time.
    – F1Krazy
    Oct 1, 2019 at 15:19
  • @F1Krazy The actual statistical reception OPs question and the other two examples are receiving were performing very similarly prior to the meta-effect. Any difference in reception now, we can't be sure is an effect on more eyes being on the question (due to meta-effect) or something else. Oct 1, 2019 at 15:22
  • 2
    @GrumpyCrouton That's why I said "the difference they're perceiving" and not just "the difference", because (as you said, prior to the Meta effect) it's debatable whether there was a difference.
    – F1Krazy
    Oct 1, 2019 at 15:23
  • @OverLordGoldDragon denying the human emotional factor obfuscates reality yes, it obviously does.
    – rene
    Oct 1, 2019 at 15:25
5

After reading here, then the linked Q&A, I have to wonder what the purpose of the question on main was. The question, as stated, does not meet the site's guidelines - it essentially asks others to do all the work ("too broad"). But people engaged any way, in good faith, trying to help.

After trying to clarify, possibilities were suggested. The reaction in comments is that you already know a solution, which you then post after-the-fact. And the tone in those comments comes across as very condescending. The impression this entire exchange makes on me is that the question is fishing for answers that you can then belittle to prove how good your approach is.

Stack Overflow does allow to ask a question, post an answer, and then mark that as "the" answer. If this was really your intent, that's fine and this may even have gotten a good reception. If others see alternative approaches, they can still post them.

Then the community can vote as it sees fit. And you have to accept that result - it's the way the site is designed: it's about a Q&A repository for the future, to help others. The votes give an indication about how "peers" evaluate the quality.

Stack Overflow is not a help-desk for individuals and it's not a place for discussions. There are other venues for discussing.

6
  • I don't intend on proceeding with this inquiry further, as this community has clearly received the question better, and this meta stirs the pot to nowhere. My responses may appear 'condenscending' post-fact, when the progressive acts of unfairly illegitimatizing my question can no longer be seen. Oct 2, 2019 at 5:03
  • Yes, from what I understand about what you're looking for, that would be the more appropriate venue. "Horses for courses", as they say... If you want discussion here to stop it might be good to put an edit at the top of this saying you've discovered Code Review is the better place for the question :-) Oct 2, 2019 at 5:45
  • "it essentially asks others to do all the work ("too broad")" I thought too broad just means that the answer would be too lengthy. Essentially every questions asks others to do the work.
    – Trilarion
    Oct 2, 2019 at 8:23
  • 1
    @Trilarion ...but not to do all the work - writing the thing from scratch... no effort Oct 2, 2019 at 9:13
  • @Cindy lack of effort was never a close reason.... A downvote one, sure. But never a close one, no matter how much we'd like it
    – Patrice
    Oct 2, 2019 at 11:36
  • There's a pretty good argument to be made where lack of effort can be equated to too broad, but...that's usually a case where we see nothing from the user except, "I have this problem, how do I fix it?" No code, no attempts, nothing to show any sort of investment in the problem space. This one...seems to at least have code, although I don't know enough about Python to really say.
    – fbueckert
    Oct 3, 2019 at 14:32

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .