134

At this point, it's clear that the SO community is deeply divided. Much has happened even since my question about what the heck is going on.

I'm not going to rehash all of that here. You all know what's been happening. Some actions, at least on the surface, seem unprofessional at best on the part of the Stack Overflow company. There is absolutely no denying that "something" is going on. I've heard the moderator's side, and they present convincing reasons for criticizing the site.

I've heard that the company and its community managers are uninterested in engaging with meta simply because they experience criticism. I've heard that the company doesn't care about answering accusations, and continues to dodge questions. I've heard that the company is incapable of apologizing. I've heard that you don't care about feature suggestions from respected users. I've heard that the company doesn't care about the work its moderators put forth. I've heard that the company isn't interested in considering alternative political or religious points of view.

You can prove these accusations wrong.

If you have an explanation for what's been happening with the moderators leaving, I want to hear it. I want to believe the best of the company that's saved my sanity over several late-night coding projects. I want to believe that this was all a misunderstanding.

If you have made a mistake and there is an apology to be owed to this community, I want to accept it. I want to appreciate that the site that showed me how to improve a bad question can improve its own model based on honest feedback.

If you have good reasons for not having completed user-supported feature requests, I want to understand them. I want to know that you were busy, or that you found that the suggestions would not work. I want the company that taught me good design to explain why their design is good.

Why do I ask?

Because I believe you can answer. Maybe I'm wrong and the company is comprised of a bunch of evil psychopaths. But I don't think so. I know that there are real humans behind the company, humans that are capable of experiencing pain and joy, making terrible decisions and excellent ones. I believe that you're capable of correcting mistakes and justifying tough but accurate decisions.

Maybe I'm too patient. Maybe I should have left as soon as the moderators started to step down. But I don't think so, not yet, not 'til I've heard the full story - one with an ending, written by you. Maybe the ending will be bad. Maybe you'll be jerks and prove the cynics right.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

Here it is. Here is your platform. I give you, as one of the small, statistically insignificant users on this site my genuine, pure, un-malicious, and undivided attention. I want to hear from you, not commentary from those outside of the company. I suspect others might do the same - and of course, there will always be unsatisfied trolls. But you are bigger than backing down to trolls.

I don't want to leave Stack Overflow. I love what this site once was. I hope to love what it is now. Remind me why, because I care about the site that got me through my coding class and saved untold hours of sleep.

I've heard that Stack Overflow is dead. Stop me from buying the coffin.

You have the power to do so.

You truly do.


A request that you read first and vote second, on answers, questions, and comments related to this post.

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  • 22
    Take into account that this is affecting a lot of sites and the CM team is working overtime to handle communications, having started this weekend, talking to moderators. Don't expect answers immediately, Stack Overflow is not the only site. I feel that this is also a redundant post, given that there are already other posts here on Meta about the same subject, like Robert's resignation. Posting yet another post is only going to make matters worse as the number of posts proliferate.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:02
  • 7
    @MartijnPieters Thanks. FWIW, I don't want quick answers - the more thought out they are, the better.
    – Brandon_J
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:03
  • 8
    @Brandon_J: you are actually quite late to this; there are posts up on Meta and many other meta.SE sites already. Central: Firing mods and forced relicensing: is Stack Exchange still interested in cooperating with the community?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:07
  • 9
    @Brandon_J you're a member for 9 months. unlike most of the other communities, nobody, ever called you a noob or trolled or insulted you because people are out there actively flagging such comments and the mods who warns and bans such people. It's not simply a site. Most of us spent hours every day to keep the site clean. It's like a family, It's like a friend circle. It's not just a site. It's an emotion. Because we, the members and the mods worked really hard. All of us hope that the recent incidents will be solved asap. But the company isn't telling anything. That's the problem here
    – Sagar V
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:10
  • 4
    @SagarV I know that I have no authority. But that's why I'm asking. Nothing I do or say is of much consequence here. Perhaps I'm being naive, but I wanted to make it very clear to SO that I want to hear their side, with no history on either side of this discussion, and maybe they'll recognize that. If I'm out of line, please close the question with the understanding that I'm doing this in good faith.
    – Brandon_J
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:12
  • 2
    @MartijnPieters I saw the MSE post, and my reasoning was A. it's on MSE, not MSO and B. it seemed at least somewhat interested in hearing commentary from people outside the company rather than the company itself.
    – Brandon_J
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:15
  • 2
    Community Managers, usually respond in any issues but here, they can't do that because it's an issue, the director, their boss involved. In this case, the company may take days to issue a statement.
    – Sagar V
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:17
  • 2
    @SagarV I am a patient man. And also, in a very real way I don't have the authority of experience, and I fully recognize that. I've not been agonized by every twist in the conflict. That's why I'm trying to appeal to those who have.
    – Brandon_J
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:18
  • 12
    According to George, we'll get a reply tomorrow or in two days.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:43
  • 9
    @Zoethetransgirl No doubt that means 6 to 8 weeks
    – j08691
    Sep 30, 2019 at 20:42
  • 3
    @j08691 assume good faith. They know lying will make things worse - I've started doubting that their intention is to kill off the community
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Sep 30, 2019 at 20:45
  • 2
    @DenysSéguret doesn't really matter, does it? SE is busy with a lot of answers, and there's not much to say about it aside that one is coming
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Oct 1, 2019 at 7:36
  • 4
    Would be nice to hear from the new CEO who just started today
    – j08691
    Oct 1, 2019 at 17:16
  • 2
    @j08691 in private I suspect his reaction was some form of "ARGH!!! Why right before I started!!!!" because outside of the the fire department no one likes walking into burning buildings. Oct 1, 2019 at 17:48
  • 2
    ...or until compilers and linkers admit to their race, colour and sexual orientation. Oct 2, 2019 at 6:04

3 Answers 3

33

I think we should all pause on creating new threads until SE releases an official communication (tomorrow or in two days). No purpose is served by speculating on what happened without hearing both sides of the story. While I don't agree with SE on most of their decisions, I'd love to see more objectivity on both sides of the table as the dust settles.

We can grab our pitchforks once both sides have had their say, and the new CoC is publicly released.

9
  • 1
    I was just made aware of their intended response time a few moments ago. Also, I wasn't hoping for any speculation at all - "I want to hear from you, not commentary from those outside of the company." Thanks for your answer, though - it's still a good thing to hear (definitely no plans for pitchforks here)! Also, if SO answers via blog or MSE, I'll make sure to post a self-answer here.
    – Brandon_J
    Sep 30, 2019 at 19:53
  • 5
    As near as I can tell, no less than three distinct debates are happening everywhere this is being discussed. Some of which are useful and some of which...aren't. At this point the damage has been done, and I suspect SO LLC is waiting for tempers to die down a little bit before making any sort of official announcement. Sep 30, 2019 at 19:54
  • 13
    @MikeTheLiar considering that they didn't take that time before an SE employee responded (thus, making it quite official), I think that the damage has been done by themselves, sadly
    – Lamak
    Sep 30, 2019 at 20:03
  • 7
    I'd like to reiterate before this comment chain goes too far (it hasn't yet) - I'm not looking for any sort of commentary, suspicions, or analysis of SO's actions that don't come from a representative of SO, the company.
    – Brandon_J
    Sep 30, 2019 at 20:07
  • 2
    Then you are not actually asking for a discussion, which is what you tagged this as.
    – Raedwald
    Oct 2, 2019 at 8:38
  • 5
    @Raedwald: Every question on Meta has to be tagged as either bug, feature-request, discussion, or support. Since not every question actually falls into one of those four categories, you need to take those tags with a grain of salt, and actually read the question to see what it's asking for.
    – ruakh
    Oct 2, 2019 at 19:14
  • 2
    It has now been two days, still nothing :/
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Oct 3, 2019 at 10:44
  • @Zoethetransgirl still hopeful here, though slightly less optimistic :/
    – Brandon_J
    Oct 3, 2019 at 12:40
  • 6
    We have our response now. It's quite a lot less than I expected, an doesn't answer much, but it's at least better than copy-pasta and probably the response being referred to. /cc @Brandon_J
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Oct 3, 2019 at 16:05
14

At this point, it's clear that the SO community is deeply divided.

Actually, I think it's rather the opposite. In fact, the community - such as it is and AFAICT - is not deeply divided. It is rather generally united in decrying SE Inc.'s recent actions and its treatment of Monica Ciello, moderators, and the community at large. At least that's the sense I get from observing discussions and voting patterns on meta.

If there's any division, it's about whether and what needs to be done towards being more "welcoming"; but that in itself is not what the crisis is about.

0
4

SO, Inc. has posted a response on MSE via Sara Chipps. Here it is:

Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior. We recognize it has caused concern in the community as a whole. We made a hard decision, and we stand by that decision. But we must also acknowledge the way in which we implemented it and our communications surrounding the decision could have been much better.

Moving forward, we will release an official process around removing moderators. We have a policy for users, but this is the first time we’ve had to remove a moderator for a Code of Conduct violation. If we have to remove a diamond in the future we will follow a published process. We’re finalizing the policy internally now and will ship it ASAP.

We learned (or were painfully reminded, rather) to never ship at 6 PM (EDT) on a Friday. We didn’t follow that rule last week and as a result there was a lot of confusion over the weekend. Even more, this weekend was a religious holiday observed by many on the site. We’re sorry for the confusion and uneasiness that caused.

We’re doing a postmortem internally on how we can do better next time. As we build a more welcoming and inclusive network we’ll continue to learn and to improve.

As we continue on this path to doing better, we want to thank you for everything you do and for being such a huge part of this community. We do value every one of you. We’ve seen your pings on chat and on the network and have been actively working to get you answers as soon as possible. Thanks for your patience. We never wanted to leave people wondering about their future in the sites they've worked very hard to moderate.

If that seems rather short, that's because there's more coming:

There is more coming, apologizing here was our first step. We've been working hard.

Here's the "more":

MSE post link

I’m David Fullerton, Stack Overflow’s CTO, responsible for the product, engineering, and community teams.

I joined Stack Overflow in 2010 because I believed in the vision and mission of Stack Overflow. I wanted to be a part of building a community where programmers come together to help one another learn and share their knowledge with one another. I loved how the site was run in the open, in collaboration with its community, and moderated by members of the community.

I’m here nearly a decade later because I believe we can continue to build this community together and make it an even more welcoming and inclusive place than it is today.

In the last few weeks, we made a series of mistakes, both in our actions and in the ways that we communicated those actions. In doing so, we hurt people who believe in that mission and who want to help us make the community welcoming and open to all. While Sara and others were on the front lines of that, I was personally involved at each step along the way and ultimately responsible, and I’m deeply sorry for the hurt that we’ve caused.

First of all, we hurt members of our LGBTQ+ community when they felt they couldn’t participate authentically and we didn’t respond quickly or strongly enough in supporting them. Worse, through our handling of this situation, we made them a target for harassment as people debated their right to express themselves and be addressed according to how they identify.

I am responsible for that, and I am deeply sorry. We absolutely support the LGBTQ+ community, and we’re committed to making our community a place that is open and welcoming to everyone. We’re working on an update to our Code of Conduct which we’re sharing with moderators for feedback tomorrow and the rest of the community later this week. We’ll also work on making more resources and materials available to our moderators to help them support members of the community as we all learn together how to be more welcoming and inclusive.

Second, we hurt a longstanding member of the community and an important volunteer moderator. She deserved the benefit of a private, comprehensive process. In the absence of a clear process for handling this kind of situation, we should have taken inspiration from our existing Moderator Action Review Process. We made a decision to act quickly, which I personally approved, but in doing so skipped several critical parts of the process. In acting quickly, we also acted at a time which coincided with a Jewish holiday which she and many other members of our community observe, and we should have taken that more into account in the process.

I’m responsible for that, and I’m sorry. We’ll be reaching out to her directly to apologize for the lack of process, privacy, and to discuss next steps. We’ll keep those discussions completely private unless we both agree to share any of it with the community.

We’ll be sharing with our moderators this week our proposed processes for handling situations like this in the future. This includes a process for handling moderator removals, and a process for reinstating moderators who wish to be reinstated.

Third, we hurt the moderators and members of our communities. Community moderation is the backbone of Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange, and our moderators are a vital part of us creating a more welcoming and inclusive place. We need to be working with our moderators and community, rather than working against them, in order to create the kind of community where everyone feels welcome and able to share their knowledge.

I’m responsible for that as well, and I’m sorry for the hurt that we’ve caused. Going forward, we will be working with the community to overhaul how we gather input and feedback from our moderators and members of the community to make sure that your voices are heard and involved in the process, not just informed after decisions have been made.

Finally, I want to apologize again for all of the pain we have caused. I am more committed than ever to creating a welcoming and inclusive community across Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange, and the mistakes we made over the past few weeks made that worse, not better. I know we have lost the trust of many of you, and that trust must be re-earned over time by more than just words. That starts this week with some of the concrete steps we are taking with the moderator removal process and the Code of Conduct changes, but the hard work will continue for years. Those first steps are:

On Monday, October 7, we’ll be sharing a second draft of an update to our Code of Conduct with all moderators for feedback On Thursday, October 10, the update to the Code of Conduct will be announced publicly By Friday, October 11, we’ll share the processes for moderator removal and reinstatement with moderators for their feedback

Looking forward, Stack Overflow is just beginning this new stage in its growth as a company. One of our top priorities across the entire team is to continue to make the community more inclusive and welcoming. We recognize that the community is the heartbeat of Stack Overflow, and we deeply appreciate all that you do. We know that our moderators care deeply about the future of our community, and we’re committed to involving you more as we evolve. We have an incredible opportunity to impact the world, and we hope that you will continue to join us on that mission.

Thank you for listening, and thank you for your patience with us as we continue to work our way through this.

This post was written with the input and support of Sara Chipps, Tim Post, and the community management team.

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  • 5
    Well, at least SE took the time to apologies for the bad timing, but nothing else. Why this had to be the first step is a bit strange, though.
    – Tom
    Oct 3, 2019 at 18:08
  • 25
    Except that it wasn’t an apology at all. Oct 3, 2019 at 21:55
  • 2
    I recommend readers of CTO Fullerton's post quoted above take a few moments read my analysis of it.
    – einpoklum
    Oct 8, 2019 at 21:05

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