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Sometimes people get blocked from asking new questions, because a few of their previous ones have been downvoted.

The guidance in these cases is for the user to improve his poorly received question, and in case it then gets upvoted, they could eventually get out of the ban.

But in a recent discussion, the user edited his off-topic question so drastically, that it was completely different than the original. This was the only way to bring it back on-topic.

A moderator reverted the question to the original off-topic state, and then three members of the community deleted it.

My question is why is this behavior not allowed? What harm does it do to the community for an off-topic question to become on-topic, if there are no existing answers to invalidate?

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    To give them a chance to edit it if it's repairable. Blocking all will also prevent cases where it's actually repairable.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:04
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    one of the reasons: confusion: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/389618/… Sep 21, 2019 at 21:44
  • "because a few of their previous ones have been downvoted" nobody is banned because a few of their questions were downvoted.
    – Raedwald
    Sep 23, 2019 at 9:49

5 Answers 5

13

This seems to be happening a bit more frequently than it used to, but it's still a fairly exceptional situation. I've referred to it as "lead boots" when talking about it with moderators and internally on product discussions.

Here's the scenario:

  1. User posts a few questions that are off-topic in a manner that no amount of editing will ever fix. Sometimes people post several of these at once. We've been around for a while, but our rules are kind of quirky when it comes to questions that ask for book or library recommendations. While it is documented, new users miss a fair chunk of the reading we make available for help.

  2. All of the questions end up getting downvoted. Some might get an answer or two. The OP gets a little overwhelmed and deletes stuff. So now you have a perfect storm of:

    1. More than a couple of questions, with very little time between them
    2. Post history records indicating deletion
    3. A very negative average score
    4. Maybe one or two edits (more on that later)

... and at that point the user has gone from zero straight past the rolling rate limits that are designed to slow people down. They went completely over the guard rail and right down to the bottom of the ravine. That's closer to a year than mere months or weeks in most cases.

They can't edit any of their questions because no amount of editing is going to make a library recommendation question on-topic. The user is basically stuck until the most downvoted and deleted question falls out of scope of the advanced block query.

If they edit their posts, the rolling limit system will acknowledge the effort, even if the edit didn't result in upvotes or re-opening. Thus, if:

  • The question has no answers
  • The OP has an on-topic question they could put in place of the one they asked
  • The OP makes an edit and it's well-received / re-opened

... they can pull themselves out of the long-term block and then the rolling limits will politely tell them that they need to wait (n) days before they can ask another question (which I think is reasonable).

That's hacky as all get-out!

I know. We need to fix the system surrounding this because conditions that were once "perfect storms" unlikely to repeat are becoming more common. But, while we do that, I want to let everyone know George is right that there's no real harm if the question has no answers. And, it's not helping people circumvent restrictions. Think of it as seeing a car fly over a guardrail and land in a ravine. But it's a Matchbox car, so you can just pick it up again, put it on the road, and let it slam into the guard rail instead.

That's a terrible analogy and why we really need to get this sorted, but work on that front starts at the input itself (where folks ask) while we iterate and study outcomes, and then look at how big of a problem we have left.

Ideally, we can get rid of the long-term advanced block and just use the rolling rate limits going forward. Users can always help themselves out of rolling limits. Hard blocks require a CM to get involved and lifting them quite often just isn't possible.

Having someone try to stay invested in a single account is always preferable. While I know editing a question to be something else completely is at odds with the rules, if there aren't any answers, there's no harm done especially when all the guidance out there says "edit, edit, edit and improve!"

Y'all can use your votes as you feel you should, I'm just saying, this isn't as harmful as one might think, and can actually be beneficial.

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    I wasn't quite convinced until I read the second to last paragraph: "Having someone try to stay invested in a single account is always preferable". Those who wish real hard can already circumvent the hard limit by creating a second, third, even one-use accounts, which is certainly not unheard of. If a significant portion of question-banned users are exploiting this already, we're not gaining as much of a benefit as we would wish from a hard ban. With that said, it would be interesting indeed to experiment with different limiting algorithms on the site, and see how they affect moderation.
    – E_net4
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:36
  • 13
    Continuing along the Matchbox analogy, supposing that someone didn't want the OP to go back into the ravine to get the Matchbox, would it make more sense to write that car off and get a new one? They are Matchbox cars, after all. That is to say, from my perspective it'd be cleaner to volunteer disassociation from the post in that perfect storm, along with a warning to mind the guard rails. Since it is exceptional, it should be dealt with in a very explicit and deliberate fashion.
    – Makoto
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:37
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    I tend to agree with @Makoto on this. This goes along the same lines the comment I left on George's answer.
    – yivi
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:39
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    Shouldn't the rate limit of a question every 40 minutes already cause askers to hit the guardrails? How many questions can someone ask one after another where there's no feedback that they're low quality? It seems like it's deliberately hard to hit the ban in the first place, so getting that feedback in front of them while they're in the process of going over the guardrail would help ensure it's a deliberate action to actually go over it.
    – fbueckert
    Sep 20, 2019 at 17:02
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    I actually agree with this, although I'd wish the user to also mark comments that will then no longer make sense as "no longer needed" to avoid confusion. Of course, a new user will be struggling just with re-asking... Perhaps provide some kind of guideance via the system (or a moderator/mentor)? Sep 20, 2019 at 17:32
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    @Makoto My feelings on this are scattered in a few places. The first thing that pops into my head is, if we're having this problem, the correct thing to do is figure out a way to stop having it in a manner that benefits newcomers. So, work happening on the question interface itself gives me a lot of hope there. With everything else? It's .. well, kind of like pick-a-kludge: rewrite the question to save it, or contact support to see if we can possibly help if we can determine that the person is likely to succeed. But the joy for me is, this is all temporary [1/2]
    – Tim Post
    Sep 20, 2019 at 18:42
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    .... now that significant resources are being put into the question interface. My ideal outcome is we get rid of the comprehensive (long-term) block altogether, because the rolling limits will be sufficient for those that weren't completely helped by overhauling the question interface. That's my picture of success and what I'm pushing to reach. So, we'll see, we look at it monthly and there's progress for sure. I'll be glad to be rid of this particular temporary kludge altogether (along with the need for it) [2/2]
    – Tim Post
    Sep 20, 2019 at 18:44
  • @CindyMeister I need to go incognito and look at what exactly they see because it's been months since I last did so. There might be some low-hanging fruit there. The comments do tend to get flagged pretty quickly (sometimes not as accurately as we'd hope), but they do draw mods to the question relatively quickly. Encouraging new users to flag that stuff is good in most cases anyway, as long as we're teaching them how. I'll look into it.
    – Tim Post
    Sep 20, 2019 at 18:51
  • @TimPost: I don't see it as a problem, necessarily. There is a bigger and deeper philosophical discussion about how many people actually hit the q-ban and how effective it is, but I'm not really talking about that now. I'm more referring to the notion that this instance is more exceptional than anything else. So, fixing it in an explicit and precise way is likely appropriate. I don't disagree that long-term, the actual root cause should be fixed, and getting rid of the long-term block may be a solution to this, but...
    – Makoto
    Sep 20, 2019 at 18:53
  • ...what we have in the here and now is adequate to address the issue, and it'd be useful to address it in this way now and make a plan for the future. Forward-looking statements are good, but they can't solve immediate pains like this.
    – Makoto
    Sep 20, 2019 at 18:53
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    @fbueckert AHA! That's a completely different (and very unintelligent) rate-limiting mechanism altogether. That's more of a defense against bad actors than intelligent analysis. That limit stops a whole CS class from asking the same C++ question 15 different ways, or Tupac from taking over the front page again (because that totally happened).
    – Tim Post
    Sep 20, 2019 at 18:56
  • Okay...but I'm having trouble seeing how it wouldn't help with the overall question ban; it's very unintelligent nature blocks a rapid fall off the cliff for new users. Someone can't ask quickly enough in a short timeframe to careen over the guardrails, without getting some warning the cliff was coming in the first place. About the only scenario I can think of is someone asks a number of questions, over a period of days or weeks, that flies under the radar, but then gets nailed once they actually become a blip. I can see some need for something from such a swift change in attention.
    – fbueckert
    Sep 20, 2019 at 19:03
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    "While I know editing a question to be something else completely is at odds with the rules" this was something created to prevent people from changing an acceptable question onto another acceptable question, not an unacceptable to an acceptable one, since it annoyed answerers. That one has unintended consequences that I've been very vocal about every time the topic about editing comes around. No rule should ever get into the way of improving content, so such rule should only apply to questions where no other quality guidance where not followed.
    – Braiam
    Sep 21, 2019 at 2:55
  • Now, talking about rules and guidance, lets remember that they don't exist in a vacuum. They interact with each other, sometimes in unintended ways. Like when passing an object between functions, sometimes you get something you don't expect.
    – Braiam
    Sep 21, 2019 at 2:56
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    How many questions can someone ask one after another where there's no feedback that they're low quality? @fbueckert This seems doable in low traffic/less watched tags, especially if they only use the one tag. Like someone wants a CSS book but they use the “block-overflow” tag instead of the CSS tag because that’s what they’re having trouble with.
    – BSMP
    Sep 22, 2019 at 8:03
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This is a surprisingly common tactic for someone who's already under the question ban to circumvent it - they change their question wholesale to make it seem like they're asking something entirely new.

Supposing that a question like this got an answer, what would happen if an OP decided to change their question again to something else? It'd invalidate all of the existing answers.

In general this sort of behavior is discouraged. Asking questions is a privilege, and the attention of answerers is a finite resource. The OP in this case should simply realize that they didn't meet standards on this occasion, and try again with a new question in the future.

Now if they've had too many questions like this, then they've pretty much run out of chances. Again, the attention of answerers is only so finite.

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    citation needed on the 'surprisingly common tactic' part. Sep 20, 2019 at 16:07
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    You might be closer to the source on that one than I am @GeorgeStocker. I can't search at this current moment, but back in the era when the q-ban was more permanent than anyone realized, I've heard tales of users actually doing this.
    – Makoto
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:08
  • 10
    Speaking as someone who had a question ban as a confused, low-rep user, it's a natural move to fix a badly received question by changing it. The block notice made it seem like that acceptable. (Improving by replacing is still improving - the rule preventing that isn't visible enough).
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:09
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    the question ends by "What harm does it do to the community for an off-topic question to become on-topic, if there are no existing answers to invalidate?". If there are answers, then everyone agrees that the question cannot be changed. Sep 21, 2019 at 22:05
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Okay, if there are no answers, changing the question doesn't disrupt the answers.

Besides, when question-banned users create a new account to circumvent question bans, it's an even worse offence.

So "recycling" a question appears preferable to throwaway account creation.

But still, there are strong arguments against completely changing a question:

  • it disrupts the possible comments below the question, they appear to make no sense
  • it leads to confusion. Example here: Why is this question off topic?. The question has been closed as it was blatantly off-topic, so OP changed it for a valid programming question because they were probably question banned at this point. Then people wondered why a valid question was closed.
  • it is a ban circumvention too. Besides, the new, valid question starts with a lot of downvotes/closure, so it's a bad strategy.
  • Moderators cannot condone this habit.

So changing the question completely would be only acceptable in the few seconds after the question is posted, before anyone can react to it by comments, answers, close votes (unless OP posted the recipe of chili con carne because it was in the clipboard and realized their mistake shortly afterwards, I don't see that case happening much)

In other cases, if the advice given in What can I do when getting “We are no longer accepting questions/answers from this account”? doesn't apply because the questions are unsalvageable, the best solution would probably to contact StackOverflow team and explain the situation.

For instance, I would try:

Hi, I have asked x bad questions and now I'm blocked from asking. I have understood why my questions were off-topic, and I can't possibly make them on-topic, so I would request that you dissociate those questions of my account so I can ask a on-topic question that I have on a javascript program.

That may convince community managers to give OP another chance, without gaming the system at all by creating new accounts or chameleoning questions.

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    This more aligns with how I would want this circumstance to be dealt with. We mere mortals can't offer any relief since all we can see is the janky edit history, and we're not privy to any other details about a given OP's post history.
    – Makoto
    Sep 22, 2019 at 3:53
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The harm to the community is that it makes the entire question ban moot. It allows users who aren't supposed to ask more questions (hence the rate limit/question ban), to ask more questions. Now any votes/answers/comments on the edited question are invalidated, and it has to be reviewed again, leading to more curator overhead.

Users don't hit rate limiting or question bans from one question; there's always more. The ban is meant to make users realize there is a problem with their behaviour, and that we expect better contributions from them. Warnings rarely work. Until the privilege is removed, users tend to continue in the same vein as what worked for them before. By not focusing on a single question, we're trying to ensure that users don't just look at it as one thing that caused the ban, but a pattern. That pattern needs updating, so that they can become positive contributors, instead of a drain on curators.

That doesn't work when they can just alter an existing question. It just contributes to the drain.

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    It doesn't actually make the question ban moot (I know this because I wrote one of the algorithms) - I'll have an answer out shortly.
    – Tim Post
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:11
-10

In the case where there are no answers to the question I'm OK with drastic edits as a means to respond to feedback given. If a user is Q-banned due to the most recent question sending them over the threshold because it's off topic, it only makes sense for them to be able to fix it (as long as there are no answers).

The reason why we disallow drastic edits when there are answers is that it completely disrupts the answers.

In the case where the user isn't Q-Banned; there really isn't a need to edit the question drastically, they can always ask another one. Q-Banned users don't have that luxury.

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    This does not seem useful neither to OP (effort spent, few people will see it) nor for SO since we will have questions with "strange" voting, probably it's better that they concentrate effort on the good ones. Sep 20, 2019 at 16:09
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    If the banning algorithm is too hard to get out of, change it. don't cheat it.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:16
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    If the situation is truly exceptional, as "it's impossible to edit any of their posts into shape, and yet the user does show promise into accepting the site rules"; I think that using a more exceptional solutions would also be not only more appropriate, but ultimately more useful. Drastically editing closing questions rarely goes well, and no matter what we do, rarely will go well in the future. Better try to find other means to get the user on track, as working with the CM team with disassociating the user from one or several posts to help them get on track, or something like that.
    – yivi
    Sep 20, 2019 at 16:34
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    Here's a positive reaction for you, George :-) Although I've put the actual comment under Tim's post. Sep 20, 2019 at 17:33
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    completely changing a question is still preferable to user creating a new account to workaround Q ban Sep 21, 2019 at 7:23
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    Let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good. Until we get a better algorithm, this is a perfectly fine workaround. Disclosure: I'm on the record as being quite for question rewrites: softwareengineering.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/7947/… Sep 22, 2019 at 0:32

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