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There have been two questions on meta asked 5 hours apart, both about declined NAA flags on what most people would find blatant cases judging by comments and question votes (first, second).

I usually tell people not care about a few declined flags, but

  1. both askers have 20k+ helpful flags on main, so presumably they have pretty good judgment on what the community and mods usually find not to be answers,
  2. both flags were declined "to give the OP the opportunity to respond", or in a similar vein, according to the mod who declined them (thanks for the explanation!), and
  3. it's not without recent precedent that moderators have changed how they do their job with somewhat problematic communication strategies.

These all raise the obvious question: should the community change in how they raise NAA, VLQ and other flags, or is this just a statistical fluke?

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    You're basing this off of two people posting a declined flag that they received yesterday as evidence of a change? So far we've handled 1600 flags today (as of 12AM UTC, of which it is 4am UTC as I write this). I don't have the stats for how many flags we handled yesterday, but I'd assume linear projection; so maybe 5000 a day? I think it's just the publicity effect of two people posting their questions about it.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 12:33
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    @GeorgeStocker thank you for your insight. Please raise it as an answer here, as it seems to be an answer to my question. Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 12:33
  • @George, just for clarification: those numbers you provide are for NAA flags only, or for mod handled flags in general? Thanks.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 12:35
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    Ok, thanks @George. But then I think those numbers on their own are kinda meaningless. I imagine the vast majority of those flags are for comments, for example; and hence their handling is not relevant to this question. Not saying that you are right or wrong, just that without context the numbers you propose as counter-thesis are not really helpful, IMO.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 12:38
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    @yivi if by "counter thesis" you mean "The mod that handled those flags" and "a moderator", then yea I guess it's a 'thesis'?
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 12:39
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    @GeorgeStocker honestly your answer here is very confusing, how could you even think of declining something similar?, so they edit?, edit to what?. LQP reviewer gets suspended if they continuously miss judge in review queue. According to me your stand should be "Sorry guys I messed up", which is not a problem at all, we know you do a lot of work, we have no problem with mods making a mistake, but we get very confused when they suddenly change the rules, which are neither shared by the community and probably not even with other moderators Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 12:40
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    George, your comment imply that these these two rejections are meaningless compared to the vast amount of flags moderators handle, IMO. If I'm wrong, please post an answer. FYI, I do not dig the condescending tone in your comment. I hope it's not coming that way because I offended you with my own comment. Bye.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 12:41
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    Do note that also the flaggers spend a lot of time, (raising >20K flags is dedication and take time) to keep SO good for future users, they merit clear guidance and answers. Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 12:45
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    @GeorgeStocker I posted an answer, so you can understand my view. I understand that you feel targeted on meta, but honestly I'm just trying to continue my work as a "caretaker" of SO and I'm getting worried that you feel you can decline any flag as you wish (no matter what content it have), I beg you to speak to other moderators and I hope you understand that we spend effort and take pride in flagging correct stuff. Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:30
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    @PetterFriberg You still haven't really answered why you're following me around as opposed to making your original comment here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/388912/… in the other post where it should have been made. That's what I'm curious about. Unless you're not looking for clarification at all?
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:31
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    @GeorgeStocker sorry, you are presuming too much bad faith "following me around", I saw this as a follow post of that post and in the end I decided to answer this since my feelings of your answer is that you feel that you can act as you like not considering other community members effort. However I think the best thing we can do now is to disengage. Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:42
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    @GeorgeStocker It's based on two flags that made it to meta. There's technically three if you include the comment one, but we have no idea how many flags are affected. You've already made an enormous presence around issues brought to meta, so is it really that unreasonable to assume there's more, and a policy change? Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:53
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    I hate to say this but, there is no consensus amongst moderators, and this is not a new problem. If it was me, I would have deleted both the posts, as that is what the FAQ mentions 1. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/297673/… 2. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/265552/…. It is very frustrating to see that even though we take the utmost care in flagging posts, according to the guidelines made by ♦ moderators, we end up getting declined flags, by those ♦ moderators themselves.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 17:52
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    Part of the problem is Bhargav and I handled a great portion of these flags and I'm now on a break. So other mods are more active in handling flags, so there is an inconsistency. @BhargavRao and I have discussed handling these flag types at length and I changed my flag handling style to be more in line with his, as he made good sense on the issue.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 19:14
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    The two problematic posts are not borderline cases, where moderators can reasonably be expected to have a difference of opinion. One of them was a me too comment in Spanish: unsalvageable. The other a link only answer that the moderator did not attempt to salvage themselves.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Aug 28, 2019 at 6:01

2 Answers 2

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No

Instead what I think we are seeing is one moderator having another view on how to handle flags, that for certain is not shared by the community and from what I can see (other moderator actions) nor by other moderators on Stack Overflow.

Let me start by saying; moderators making mistakes on Stack Overflow is not, nor has ever been a problem, they handle tons of flags and when they say "sorry" it's instead most often greatly appreciated

What remains to answer is:

Why is it important that moderators handle flags in similar way?

On Stack Overflow we have many dedicated "caretakers", they spend hours each day trying to make this site better for future users, flagging "Thank you, me too answers", finding plagiarism, spam etc. Having different moderators that act completely differently and against community standards is not only very confusing "How should I handle this now?" it's also a bit sad "That's what I get for the effort I made".

According to me moderators are like the police, they should follow and uphold the "law", inventing new laws or breaking current ones because of personal belief is not permitted.

How can we convince the moderator to align to current rules?

Sure we can complain on meta as any citizen, but ultimately I really hope the police (the other moderators) speak to this moderator. They get together, decide the rules on how to handle flags and convince users (to make them continue their effort) that these rules are correct.

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    Downvoted since the reasoning is incorrect "Instead what I think we are seeing is one moderator having another view on how to handle flags" (source: I'm the moderator you're referring to).
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:30
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    @GeorgeStocker Have you spoken to other moderators?, do they agree that you can/should decline flag on this meta.stackoverflow.com/a/388911/5292302 Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:33
  • Louis answer sums it up rather well: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/388917/16587
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:39
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    @GeorgeStocker Moderators still need to follow the rules. We have community guidelines, and while some mods handle stuff differently, there's a world of difference between handling an answer differently, and changing how a mod handles NAA flags (because that's currently the assumption I'm going under). If we don't have policies and everything is on a per-case basis, we won't need flaggers in the end. Petter's reasoning is far from incorrect, but you're not understanding the scale. If you start declining flags on link-only answers and other NAA's that could potentially be recoverable, that's a Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 14:10
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    policy change. Not the minor difference between two moderators, that's an individual policy change. If you go down that road without meta or someone else approving and making it official, we'll end up wasting our flags. The moderator lottery is far from what you're doing. Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 14:11
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    @zoe if everything was cut and dried you could create an algorithm to take care of it. The nuance is why you have human moderators in the first place.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 14:11
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    @GeorgeStocker An algorithm is still no match for a real brain, at least not yet. Talk to Google in 6-8 years. There's human difference in the way flags are handled, yes, but you're going against consensus on how posts should be handled. if you don't have the majority of at least the moderators (but of the community would be better), you're not upholding the rules of SE - you're making your own and enforcing those instead. Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 14:16
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    I totally second this answer. Mods don't get to make the rules, they are here to enforce them.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 23:14
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    The cops are working on it Petter.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2019 at 9:05
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I don't think there's been any concerted change in the way flags are handled. I've learned long ago that it is a fact of flagging that when you flag you are effectively playing "moderator lottery". Different moderators have different moderating styles. Some of those differences in style are apparent in the way our flags are handled. I've raised countless flags similar to the two examples you gave, most were deemed helpful, but once in a while I lose the lottery and I get a declined flag on something which is not sensibly different from the other flags that were deemed helpful. Some of those denied flags may be explained by the odd misclick but some are due to ideological differences as sometimes evidenced by a custom message attached to the flag, or discussion on Meta.

The two flags were handled by a moderator whose style is to go out of his way to try to save posts that others would just delete. (He's not the only moderator with this opinion, by the way.) If you flag a link-only post and this moderator gets your flag, you run the risk that the moderator will follow the link and try to edit a relevant quote into the answer, and decline your flag. If another moderator had handled the flag, things would probably have gone differently.

As far as I see it, following links to try to salvage answers is not where I want to spend my time. There may be the odd exception. Say I already know the answer to the question and by just reading the link's URL I know it points towards a reliable source, and not garbage. I may decide to fix the answer in such case. But that's the exception, not the rule.

All this boils down to for me is that I continue to flag link-only answers as I see fit, knowing that once in a while I'm going to lose the moderator lottery and get my flag denied.

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    This is largely accurate; though I'd say it's far more context dependent for me. What all of this reinforces is for me to just mark flags as 'helpful' and take no action when I feel there is a better step to take since the alternative is to be piled-on on meta.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:35
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    @GeorgeStocker I don't think that's a bad thing. One small but subjectively important impact of declined flags is the message it sends: "you are doing it wrong/don't waste our time". Declining should in my opinion be reserved for wrong flags. Good-faith, reasonable flags where you make a well-thought-out decision (rather than handling things "literally without a thought", see comment flags) should be marked helpful. Nobody will worry if they see a post sticking around with a helpful flag, because the message is "thanks, but this is OK". The same with a declined flag is "No, don't flag this". Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:39
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    @AndrasDeak The effect of the pile-on means I don't come to meta to explain what I did. I'm sure that's not your intended goal. -- Or maybe it is?
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:39
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    @GeorgeStocker of course not, I'm always thankful when a mod cares to explain why they chose a given moderation action (even though they should be accountable for their actions). I'm personally only interested in moderation protocol and whether this is changing (as you might have noticed from my earlier discussions with you). The fact that you're again involved is largely coincidental. Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:42
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    @GeorgeStocker you (or any other particular moderator) not coming at meta is not a big deal, system is robust enough to handle cases of AFK. Some other moderator could handle meta discussion and if needed talk to whoever was AFK later in Teachers Lounge. Moderators are expected to work as a team
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:42
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    If there is an intended outcome of people calling out controversial mod decisions that I'd like to see is moderators changing their choices or leaving controversial decisions to other mods, and definitely not mods migrating away from meta (and with that from accountability) while taking the exact same actions. But I know how you feel about meta, @GeorgeStocker, so I certainly understand your reaction. Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:44
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    "moderator lottery" ... great title for a TV format ...
    – rene
    Commented Aug 27, 2019 at 13:47

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