79

It seems that any user can edit a closed question. If a user doesn't have the rep then such an edit triggers possibly two reviews, an edit review and then, assuming the edit is approved, a reopen review.

That's a lot of work, and in my experience almost every edit by a third-party is unrelated to the close reason. So a lot of work goes into reviewing relatively inconsequential edits.

I propose that if you do not have enough rep to skip the edit review then you should not be allowed to edit any closed questions except your own.

As an alternative, you can decide to relax the rule for duplicates. A good duplicate adds value to stackoverflow.

To clarify the proposal, here is the timing of the actions I'm describing:

  1. Owner asks question
  2. Question has problems and gets closed
  3. Low rep user edits this closed question triggering an edit review
  4. Two edit reviewers approve the edit
  5. Because the question was closed and then was edited, question pops into the "Reopen Votes" review queue with the reason "Question was edited after it was closed. Should it be reopened?"
  6. Five more reviewers look over the edit and decide the question should remain closed.

As a worst case but common scenario, all of this work can be triggered by a low-rep user taking an off-topic question and improving the formatting a little bit. My proposal cuts this process off at step 3 by not allowing low-rep users to edit questions that are closed.

Edits that would not cause the question to be pushed into the reopen queue, such as those done more than 5 days after closure, would not be impacted.

23
  • 5
    Does it happen often? Edits by owners or by users with sufficient rep would anyway not be reviewed. Commented Aug 21, 2019 at 22:21
  • 7
    It seems to be a signiicant percentage of the reopen queue, but I admit I haven't taken the time to actually count. Commented Aug 21, 2019 at 22:23
  • 61
    "in my experience almost every edit by a third-party is unrelated to the close reason" - And if suggested gets approved as well, I would like for OPs to have a single use "nominate for re-opening" button that they can press only after editing their post, but that's unlikely to happen Commented Aug 21, 2019 at 22:25
  • 4
    @NickA I really like that idea. That will remove all those "edit: found the solution" from the queue, and the OP is aware that folks are looking at his question again ... Commented Aug 21, 2019 at 23:11
  • 14
    Not sure I follow what you're proposing. I agree that there are a lot of inconsequential edits that kick a closed question into the Re-open queue, which is a waste of time and deprives the OP of the opportunity to edit in order to trigger the re-open process. This, for me, is the bigger concern. My thought would be that low-rep users can't edit closed questions. They're usually out for rep points and have no "filter" about the results of their action. Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 3:57
  • 3
    "I propose that if you do not have enough rep to skip the edit review then you should be allowed to edit any closed questions except your own." what if a user suggests an edit, and afterwards the question is closed? I see a sizeable portion of edits fall under this situation, too.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 11:29
  • 3
    What if I’m helping a newbie to make his/her question (was closed as too broad), a little less broad? Or any other help
    – weegee
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 12:09
  • 2
    Every edit to a closed question deserves to go into the reopen queue. So people can learn about SO and learn to edit questions from too broad to an on-topic one. This will really remove the point of editing in the first place
    – weegee
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 12:11
  • 13
  • 5
    @weegee: This proposal does not affect question owners, only third-parties editing a question. Question owners can always edit their question. And if your helping? Well, I'm sorry, you need to get 2k rep first. I have reviewed a lot of questions and the number of cases where the edit is good enough to get the question reopened is very, very small. Weigh that against the heavy burden this places on reviewers. Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 13:44
  • 1
    @JamesKPolk Okay, now would you like to support your “very very small” approximation with some concrete examples?
    – weegee
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 14:58
  • 2
    I quote from the relevant thread that Andrew linked ” There is very little evidence of cases where a (third-party) edit actually ends up stealing an OP's chance of getting their question reopened in the queue.”
    – weegee
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 15:00
  • 2
    @JamesKPolk if your points and evidences are all anecdotal then why the argument? Why not research more into it
    – weegee
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 16:07
  • 4
    While I think the goal here of not having questions uselessly in the reopen queue is really good, I don't feel what's proposed in this question is the right way to obtain that goal. I think that what TylerH mentions in their answer (and which has been proposed at various times elsewhere) is a much better solution. I don't believe I've ever seen an edit by a 3rd party, who can't also vote to reopen, change a question sufficiently such that it should be reopened. It'd be better to just not have 3rd party edits automatically put questions in the reopen queue.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 1:25
  • 5
    With the review queue changes, this is no longer a problem, because edits must now be explicitly marked as having resolved the close reason (and this is reviewed for suggested edits).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 12:13

4 Answers 4

175

Instead of preventing where users can suggest edits, I would rather see a system where edits by non-OP do not bump a closed question into the reopen queue. As it stands, only the first edit (if I recall correctly) after a question is closed will do so, meaning a question edited non-substantively (e.g. spelling fixes or retagging only for a question that's lacking a minimal repro of a code issue) will have its one shot at the reopen queue hijacked from the OP, who definitely ought to have the ability to send their question to the reopen queue via an edit.

Shog made a proposal a while ago about a change to the closure system that would directly affect this and implement something that addresses the common case where it takes an edit from OP to save a question. It's almost a year old now, and there hasn't been any activity, but it's highly likely it's just a case of a million other things being higher on his list of priorities.

20
  • 3
    " I would rather see a system where edits by non-OP do not bump a closed question into the reopen queue." -> wouldn't that penalize the OP when others try to help them fix their questions?
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 18:55
  • 52
    @GeorgeStocker No, it would empower OP. I've seen a lot of discussion recently about the reopen queue being filled with posts that are only there because someone made some inconsequential (for the state of the question) edits. Such a change would fix that problem and the problem of OP editing their question into shape having no effect WRT to the reopen queue. At any rate, Shog's proposal goes even further; it's much more ambitious by virtue of being a response to a broader call to action than this post, which is simply addressing the idea of preventing suggested edits in some cases.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 19:33
  • 1
    This is a good point, but my focus was entirely on eliminating what I believe is wasted effort by reviewers. Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 19:41
  • 3
    @JamesKPolk You don't think achieving the same outcome (no longer having these questions in the review queue due to edits by >2k users) by different means solves the problem of wasted effort by reviewers?
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 19:45
  • 7
    No, that would be a great result and would satisfy my work-reduction goals entirely, just wanted to make sure people understood where I was coming from. Commented Aug 22, 2019 at 19:48
  • 1
    The Metas describing what edits put questions in the reopen queue are: Which edits push closed questions to the reopen review queue? and Lots of questions in the reopen queue. The main difference from what you've said is that tag-only edits don't put the question in the reopen queue. The edit must be to the body, not just the title and/or tags.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 1:29
  • 1
    "only the first edit after a question is closed will do so" IIRC if that person has not voted to close. If someone voted to close the question and then does cosmetic fixes, the question is not bumped into the queue.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 7:44
  • 1
  • 3
    I would rather see a system where edits by non-OP do not bump a closed question into the reopen queue. Does this include 2K+ users as well? Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:11
  • 5
    @NathanOliver By default, yes, but easy to tweak to just be sub-2k. That decision should probably rely on statistics though. In an ideal world, we'd just have a tickbox that was unchecked by default that an editor or OP could check that said "this is a substantive edit - please submit it to the reopen queue for review".
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:31
  • 3
    I agree with the idea that only OP can edit question into the reopen queue. If the OP themselves doesn't edit the question, then 99% of the time it should probably remain closed anyway, and if it does reopen, it probably isn't the result of the queue.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 20:12
  • 6
    I like this suggestion as it's on point. The question being closed means it has some problem that only the OP can fix (e.g. missing information). So it's only natural to only trigger reopen review for OP's edits. Commented Aug 25, 2019 at 9:44
  • 3
    A problem I think we need to address independently is, don't encourage edits at all for something that is just blatantly off-topic. With the post notice re-design work, I think we can communicate that gently and effectively. Any edit that gets something that can't ever be salvaged more visibility is actively harmful because it's more likely to be heavily downvoted and the OP is more likely to encounter rolling rate limits and an eventual q-block faster. That's been sticking in my head ever since we introduced "on hold". I'm wondering what impact that alone might have.
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 29, 2019 at 16:27
  • 2
    @TimPost It's not clear how much impact that will have (assuming were talking only blatantly off-topic questions). How many of those are from people that come back and contribute? I'd expect most edits to be in a relatively short period after the question was asked/closed. If the score is <=-3 then it's not on the homepage. For questions in tag lists, if edits are grouped near posting or closure, then the Q isn't going to be bumped in the tag lists all that far, probably not even for quite active tags. While Qs will get some additional views from an edit, I'm not sure if it's all that much.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2019 at 18:45
  • 1
    @TimPost sadly, we have shoehorned the unclear with specific guidance into the off topic reasons. There are some questions closed with off-topic typeflag that would benefit from editing.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 3, 2019 at 12:35
53

I propose that if you do not have enough rep to skip the edit review then you should not be allowed to edit any closed questions except your own.

I'm not a fan of this. While a lot of edit suggesters don't improve the question enough to get it open, from what I've seen, they normally do a decent job of at least editing the question into a readable form. What I would propose is still allowing them to edit, but not letting it count as entry into the reopen queue. This, IMHO, would provide a lot less friction as nothing is being taken away but our process gets improved.

13
  • Isn't this what TylerH is proposing? This would be an acceptable solution. Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:13
  • @JamesKPolk I'm not sure. When I read I would rather see a system where edits by non-OP do not bump a closed question into the reopen queue. to me that includes everyone, not just suggesters. I've left a comment to get clarification. Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:14
  • How is this different from the other answer?
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:39
  • @JL2210 Right now the other answer proposes that all edits after closure will not put the question into the reopen queue. This answer would do that just for edit suggestions. Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:40
  • 1
    @NathanOliver OK, but will edits from 2K+ rep users still be able to improve the question to a point where it can be reopened without intervention by the OP? I honestly don't think so.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:42
  • @JL2210 I've done it multiple times myself. Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:43
  • 1
    Yes, but in the majority of cases (no MCVE, too broad, maybe some unclear), is it possible? There are thousands of questions on Stack Overflow, "multiple times" is a very small percentage of them.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 13:44
  • 7
    @JL2210 Sounds like we need to ask shog or someone on data about the % of 2K+ edits that get reopened. Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 14:12
  • 1
    @JL2210 meta.stackoverflow.com/a/266844/792066
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 21:42
  • 1
    8 to 13% isn't too bad. I'd rather have that and a little extra work in the queue. Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 21:44
  • 1
    @Braiam But that's just "edited and then reopened". It's not "edited by someone other than OP, and then reopened".
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Aug 24, 2019 at 13:53
  • 1
    @JL2210 that's counting all the non-OP edits. If they were that prevalent in the site, we would see a higher difference between the proportion of questions that gets edited and reopened vs edited and stays closed. Yes, it may happen, but it's not that significant right now, specially looking at the questions closed with unclear.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 24, 2019 at 14:15
  • 3
    Users with >3k have the ability to vote to reopen, which should be used to indicate they feel the post can be reopened. Thus, automatically putting the question in the reopen queue for their edits is superfluous. If edits by < 2k users aren't going to put the question in the reopen queue, then the automatic entry into the reopen queue is only useful for users with 2k < rep <3k, but that would be after the system has trained them for 2k that their edits don't put the post in the reopen queue. Do posts from users with that range of rep really make the question on-topic all that often?
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Aug 26, 2019 at 14:10
-11

As a point additional to the other answers here, this would make the new badges Lifejacket and Lifeboat much harder to achieve, and by the introduction of the badges I think that is behavior SE is trying to promote or get more of, rather than restrict or make harder.

This is especially because people tend to use Close Vote in many cases where a Downvote would be more consistent with the somewhat distinct intentions of those systems.

10
  • 5
    "because people tend to use Close Vote in many cases where a Downvote would be more consistent" [citation needed].
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 29, 2019 at 15:42
  • @Braiam What kind of evidence are you looking for? I see it happening on a regular basis.
    – WBT
    Commented Aug 29, 2019 at 15:49
  • 3
    Well, show us an example, since it's readily available as you see it happening on regular basis.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 29, 2019 at 17:16
  • 3
    @Braiam Just looking at the latest closed question, it's clear what OP want to do: "I want to add something that says "The Number you have entered is too high/ low". The correct answer is four lines of very simple code. It's not a great question and maybe deserves downvotes, but not "Closed as too broad." It apparently got more close votes than downvotes, because people went more quickly to Close Vote instead.
    – WBT
    Commented Aug 29, 2019 at 19:43
  • 3
    Here's another one in a similar vein. OP provides multiple input/output examples and a clear description of the desired behavior, along with showing code to illustrate. It's not a great question, but "Closed as too broad" seems like an inappropriate response for the way downvoting and close voting are supposed to be distinguished.
    – WBT
    Commented Aug 29, 2019 at 19:59
  • Neither of those examples constitute an actual question. They are 'unclear what you are asking' and/or 'too broad' Commented Aug 31, 2019 at 11:55
  • @WBT Both of those questions are (for lack of a better word) crap. They should be closed.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Sep 2, 2019 at 0:21
  • @JL2210 They should be downvoted, not closed as too broad. I think the comments here do a good job of illustrating the point in the answer about people using Close Vote instead of Downvote. The attitude displayed here, at least as explained in that comment, suggests that you would in general on the main site not Downvote a question without also casting a Vote to Close, even if the close reason doesn't apply to the question.
    – WBT
    Commented Sep 3, 2019 at 13:27
  • @WBT No, they should be closed. They don't show effort and aren't clear. I downvote some bad questions without voting to close them, because they don't show effort (although they are clear).
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Sep 3, 2019 at 14:49
  • 1
    What do you mean by "aren't clear?" OPs do clearly state exactly what they want to accomplish.
    – WBT
    Commented Sep 4, 2019 at 12:26
-20

The suggestion would give up from what we have not enough (improvements), in order to spare what we have enough (reopen, suggested edit reviews).

  • If a question should be closed, it should be closed.
  • If a low-rep user suggests an edit, and it is an improvement, it should be accepted.
  • If a closed question becomes reopenable by edit(s), is should be reopened. Who did the edit (low-rep user, OP or others) should be not an issue.

That the reviews are a lot of work, is the problem of the reviewers. The suggested-edit and reopen queues are not overloaded, we have enough reviewers. The VtC queue is overloaded, but it is not affected by the suggestion.

In general I also disagree to make the system more and more restrictive. A well-working, healthy cooperation should catalyze the work, should attract more volunteer contributors into the system, instead of rejecting their free work for the site.

I would not disagree to reject the suggested edits from users whose suggestions were already many times rejected - but it should happen only if they have a really bad suggested edit history. I.e. it should depend on their suggested edit history, and not on the posts they are active on.

9
  • 3
    "The suggested-edit and reopen queues are not overloaded" -- I would argue against that. There just always seems like more material there, and we can only go through 20 each day.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 14:13
  • 3
    @JL2210 The stats (reopen, suggested-edits) are below 200 at the moment. This clearly shows that there is no overlasting. Why and how, it does not matter in this context - there is no reason to spare, what we have enough. There is no reason to give up potentially worthy edit contributions to spare the suggested-edit and reopen review contributions.
    – peterh
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 14:23
  • 2
    Its not clear, what this answer wants. While you disagree that the system should not be more strict but you dont want to accept edits from people who have a bad history. If they have a bad history and they provide a meaningful edit then what? Can you gurrantee that every edit by a user who’s history is bad is always bad?
    – weegee
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 16:15
  • @weegee It is not clear, what your comment wants. My answer is clear.
    – peterh
    Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 17:02
  • 7
    "If a low-rep user suggests an edit, and it is an improvement, it should be accepted." - robo-reviewers approve all kinds of trash, including edits that should be rejected under policies established on meta. IIRC, and it might've been mentioned too, the post is only bumped to reopen review once. It's not really worth wasting that chance on a robo-reviewed edit imo. "The suggested-edit and reopen queues are not overloaded, we have enough reviewers." - We haven't been able to get it down to 0 in a long time. I'd argue we can keep it at bay, Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 17:53
  • 2
    but don't have enough reviewers to push the queue size down, and keep it there. We're reviewing backlogs, not brand new edits. VLQ used to hit 0 a while ago, but now it's relatively high up (I'm not sure what happened there tbh). Reopen isn't exactly low either. Relative to the CV queue, sure, but not really relative to the queue size. I suppose it depends on how much ages away instead of being reviewed. Commented Aug 23, 2019 at 17:55
  • 1
    @Zoe You are conflating two things. The answer you cite says "rejected for not making a meaningful improvement or making the post easier to read", while peterh says "user suggests an edit, and it is an improvement". Your citation doesn't support your argument.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 24, 2019 at 1:54
  • 1
    @Braiam sure, and edits that actually are an improvement should naturally be approved. My point, if I didn't make it clear enough, is that terrible edits are still approved, and bumping questions into the reopen queue over an edit like that is a waste of reviews for one, and it doesn't help the author of the question. I mentioned it because, in my opinion, it didn't look like the answer remembered to address robo-reviewers and other ways horrible edits get through without being an improvement (such as human error). The answer looks like it's, in part, based on that as well. Commented Aug 24, 2019 at 7:13
  • One caveat from current system is meta.stackexchange.com/questions/316115/…. How would you address (in your answer) OP missing the opportunity of their own edits not triggering their Q for reopen review? Commented Sep 2, 2019 at 17:07

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