26

I asked the following question, which received 2 downvotes and zero feedback on why it was downvoted. As far as I am aware I asked a legitimate question and I followed the 'asking a question' advice template as I originally typed it:

Hi all,

I am working on a Neural Network problem where each example should be assigned 2 classes from a pool of 20, but where the 20 classes are actually 2 subsets of 10 classes. i.e. Each example needs to be assigned an 'A' class and a 'B' class:

A classes = [0 , 1, 2 ,3, 4, 5, 6 ,7, 8, 9] 
B classes = [0 , 1, 2 ,3, 4, 5, 6 ,7, 8, 9]

Assign classes to examples:

Example 1: [A0, B5] 
Example2: [A1, B3] 
… 
ExampleN: [An, Bn]

etc.

What final function should I use in my NN output layer? I could use a sigmoid fucntion with 20 outputs, but this seems rather crude, given the precondition that each example must have both an 'A' and a 'B' class. I need something that would be the equivilent of using 2 separate softmax functions…

Also what would the best associated cost function be for such a problem?

I feel like I am overcomplicating what should be a simple problem in my head.

Thanks,

T

After receiving downvotes over a couple of hours, I deleted my question (assuming I had somehow offended stack overflow), but not really any the wiser about the error of my ways.

I am now unable to ask another question for 1 day because:

You've asked 1 question recently which has not been received very well by the community.

So, rather than be put off from asking questions entirely or trying to take part in Stack Overflow's community in the future, I am seeking some advice on how I should have worded my question differently.

My only guess is that the question wasn't 'codey' enough, so should I have posted the code for my entire neural network along with the question?

Edit: in case it helps anyone with a similar Q I solved this myself using multiple softmax output layers and a custom combined CE loss function

19
  • 16
    One thing worth mentioning: question legitimacy doesn't make a question immune to quality standards. It's a frequently used defense that a problem someone is having and they need an answer means it's a good question. Generally, they're not. Focus on the quality standards, and you'll do much better.
    – fbueckert
    Jul 8, 2019 at 17:48
  • 2
    Thanks. What quality standards does my question not meet in your opinion?
    – Tristan HB
    Jul 8, 2019 at 17:55
  • 7
    As Makoto said in their answer, I see what problem you're facing, but I'm not seeing any attempt at actually solving the solution. It feels rather broad; try working on the problem, and see what you run into. That generally makes a question much narrower, and something we might be able to help with.
    – fbueckert
    Jul 8, 2019 at 18:04
  • 2
    Okay that makes sense. I am getting the impression that my question is just too broad for SO. I appreciate that SO seems to encourage people to try to code something and only post when they are stuck. I have no problem coding any solution, but as I have literally no idea where to start with the theory on this (I have exausted Google), I think I will just leave this question for a more general data science forum.
    – Tristan HB
    Jul 8, 2019 at 18:15
  • 6
    Trying to get direction is one of the very things that SO can't help with; it's just too vague to be useful to many people. Some people will have a focus on solving their problem; others will want a grounding in the basics. Unfortunately, if you're trying to learn a field, your best bet is to find a course, somewhere.
    – fbueckert
    Jul 8, 2019 at 18:19
  • 11
    Hi, T. One other thing to avoid in questions are greetings and signatures. They'll only get edited out as they are discouraged here. Thanks, W.
    – user1228
    Jul 8, 2019 at 18:22
  • 3
    Also, you might want to check out questions that share the same tags as this one. They often reveal what the folks who watch those tags think are good questions. What do those questions have that yours does not? Do the same with negatively scored questions in those tags. What does your question share with them?
    – user1228
    Jul 8, 2019 at 18:24
  • 2
    Try guided mode when you ask a question. Then you will get a ton of advice.
    – klutt
    Jul 8, 2019 at 22:08
  • 2
    I also must ask, have you read How to Ask?
    – klutt
    Jul 8, 2019 at 22:08
  • 3
    I am a bit irritated that since posting this somebody has taken the time to seek out my old question from last year and downvote it. That behaviour points to some rather toxic members in the SO community (despite some helpful and understanding responses here). I thought my career experience could be helpful to others, but I am a bit put off from asking or answering questions in the future. I may just go back to “lurker” status.
    – Tristan HB
    Jul 8, 2019 at 22:29
  • 4
    @TristanHB Sad to hear it. But hey, you meet that kind of people no matter where you go. And maybe someday in the future you will have a really crappy day because your boss is a b-hole and your toilet overflooded, and you are the one acting out. Just shake it off. There are loads of helpful souls here.
    – klutt
    Jul 8, 2019 at 22:44
  • 1
    I have certainly benefitted from the helpful souls here while lurking, and maybe my answers will be more useful than my questions.
    – Tristan HB
    Jul 8, 2019 at 22:52
  • 1
    P.s. thank you whoever upvoted my old question, that was really kind of you. :)
    – Tristan HB
    Jul 8, 2019 at 22:53
  • 1
    One more thing. Votes are not intended to be personal, and writing questions is a skill that takes time to develop. Wouldn't it be strange if you wrote good question from the beginning? We're voting on the questions quality, no matter your intentions and effort.
    – klutt
    Jul 8, 2019 at 23:06
  • 1
    To be honest: That question is actually quite okay (not an expert in neuronal networks (except my own) though). It might need some clarification, but that can be requested with a comment, and not with downvotes. It's also fun that yet no one from that tag has shown up Jul 9, 2019 at 6:02

3 Answers 3

32

First, thanks for seeking advice. I can appreciate your frustration, but I'm glad to see that you're actually looking to improve here.

Second, I won't speak specifically to the downvoters, but here are some key phrases which may have triggered them:

What final function should I use in my NN output layer?

I need something that would be the equivilent of using 2 separate softmax functions…

Also what would the best associated cost function be for such a problem?

Having no domain expertise in this, those sentences definitely read like a problem which is "too broad". This could be why it incurred downvotes.

Not sure how you could turn it around, but you'd want to start with those three sentences. If you're looking for advice for which function you should use, then you should be as narrow as you realistically can when asking for it, since anyone could simply interpret this as something which is too broad.

3
  • Thanks. Just to additionally point out I tagged the question with #deep learning #python #keras and #tensorflow in the hope it would be seen by the right expertise.
    – Tristan HB
    Jul 8, 2019 at 17:51
  • As it seems to be generally accepted by people viewing this post that my question was indeed too broad, I have marked your answer as my accepted answer.
    – Tristan HB
    Jul 8, 2019 at 20:10
  • One thing to note is brevity, salutation and what else which distract from the main question is annoying.
    – Shinjo
    Jul 9, 2019 at 1:47
12

I'm not an expert in your field, but I can say what I believe.

Many people here judge questions way too much by the book, and also does so without having enough expertise to do so. I know that I have done it in the past, and I would be surprised if it never happened again. I try to avoid it, but hey, not only askers do mistakes. Answerers and reviewers also make mistakes.

We have a rule that states that you should provide a Minimal, Reproducible Example. It is quite common that people asks for this, even for questions where it's clearly not needed. Often the reason is that the commenter not only lacks the expertise necessary to provide an adequate answer, but also to understand the question at all. Many people are very quick to downvote or closevote for off topic, why isn't this code working? for this reason.

Similarly, it is quite common to get close votes for off topic, recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource as soon as the asker even hints that they are open for a solution based on a tool.

The same thing if you ask a question that is just a tiny bit subjective. Boom! Close vote for primarily opinion based.

So for your question then. As I said, I'm not expert, but I definitely get the feeling that it is too broad. This would make a close vote appropriate. Also, I get a small feeling of "gimme teh codez", which is basically just a specification dump and then hoping that someone will solve your homework. I don't see any of your own effort in the question. That's a reason to downvote for lack of research. You are also writing "Also what would the best associated cost function be for such a problem?" and the word "best" is often a sign that a question is primarily opinion based.

If I saw this question I would not do anything, because it's way out of my expertise. So any vote, up or down would be like tossing a coin.

The bottom line is to remember the purpose of SO. It is not intended to be a forum where anyone can get help with their problem. Granted, it often works that way, but it's not the purpose. The purpose is to build a database with good question-answer pairs. If SO ever reached its goal (which it never will) no more questions would be asked.

About 90% of the time I plan to ask something here at SO, I find the solution here when searching for similar problems. For those times when I do start writing a question, the process of writing a good question makes me understand the solution. I would estimate that in at least 80% of the cases I never post the question because I found the answer. Sometimes, when I find the question valuable enough for others, I post it anyway and answer it.

An important thing related to the above is this: If you are asking for a "nudge in the right direction" then - although I can give you credit for trying not to be a help vampire - you're missing the goal. Such questions and answers are not suitable for the Stack Exchange model.

8
  • I appreciate you insights. To be honest I didn't want any code, just a quick sentence of advice. In the end, my own solution, for example, was: "Use two separate softmax activation layers, one for each class set". I would have preferred an all-in-one solution, but I genuinely don't believe one exists. I could have left out asking for an associated cost function, as that would probably require custom "do my work for me" code; but that was really a side point for me. Anyway, advice noted, thanks.
    – Tristan HB
    Jul 8, 2019 at 22:51
  • @TristanHB As I said, I'm no expert in the field and you don't have to explain yourself to me. I just gave my impression of the question. I added some extra stuff in the end in the answer that you can read.
    – klutt
    Jul 8, 2019 at 23:02
  • 4
    Fully agree with the fastest-close-vote-in-the-west problem re: any question that says "Are there any libraries that do X?" Which is an objective question (the intent behind that close vote reason was to stop the "Please recommend the best library for X" questions), but people pile on. Why, it's almost as if people are chasing review-queue badges rather than thinking about their close votes!
    – rmunn
    Jul 8, 2019 at 23:37
  • @rmunn It's especially interesting since you can get the review badges just as easily by just clicking "Leave open" :)
    – klutt
    Jul 8, 2019 at 23:41
  • 1
    Maybe it would be a good thing if those badges worked like if you fail an audit, you back five steps from getting a badge.
    – klutt
    Jul 8, 2019 at 23:42
  • 1
    "It is not intended to be a forum where anyone can get help with their problem. The purpose is to build a database with good question-answer pairs." Could we please have that emblazoned across the top of every page of the site????
    – matt
    Jul 9, 2019 at 0:12
  • 2
    @matt I'm afraid that would go against the new "welcoming"-policy. ;)
    – klutt
    Jul 9, 2019 at 0:13
  • 3
    @klutt We could put "Welcome to Stack Overflow" in front of it.
    – matt
    Jul 9, 2019 at 0:31
10

I'm definitely no expert on asking great questions, but I think the following might help:

Show your workings

Showing an example of what you've tried will help a lot, especially if you're a new member of SO.

Even if you don't think what you've done so far is a good approach, it can help clarify the question and it also shows people that you have already tried to solve the problem.

Stack Overflow gets a lot of questions that are essentially "do my college assignment for me while I go out to the pub" so it's important to separate yours from those.

Try to only ask one question per question

I'm really guilt of not doing this, but the more questions a question contains, the more subjective things get and so the longer it takes to craft an answer.

As you say, a more codey question will do better

I don't know the subject area, but if you could make the question more along these lines then it might do better:

I'm trying to do [something]

I tried function X as follows:

[code or pseudo example of Function X]

but that's crude because [show results of function X and explain why this is slow, uses too many iterations, etc.]

I also tried function Y as follows

[code or pseudo example of function Y]

but that's crude because [show results of function Y and explain why this is also slow or 'bad' etc.]

Can either of these functions be improved, or is there a better way to try and achieve [preferably specific objective, e.g. under Z no. iterations]

Hope that helps. Don't give up and leave, this place is wonderful! I run four monitors now so I can have SO open on one of them at all times!

Doing the above may solve the question

One of the great benefits of the above approach is that taking time to really frame the question often leads me to the solution, or to find that I don't actually know exactly what question I'm asking or that there's a hole in my logic.

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .