-7

Clearly Condescending Comment

This comment seems very condescending to me. May I ask in what culture is such a comment acceptable?

I flagged this as unkind and the flag was declined. Why was the flag declined?

For anyone wondering why I dragged the word condescending into this:

Excerpt of Comment Flag Dialog Showing Hint for Unfriendly or Unkind Flags

Mark Amery says "that the minimum standard anyone who thinks otherwise should meet is to clearly state what the commenter should've done or said instead". Here's my suggestion:

A is a type of struct Something. *B is a pointer to a type of struct Something. The comma allows the user to declare multiple types with the same typedef.

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  • 4
    Did you flag it?
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:09
  • Yes, I flagged it. Now I realize I should have put that in my question. Sorry.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:13
  • 16
    To be honest, I don't see how it is condescending.
    – Tom
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:17
  • 9
    I agree with you, this sounds exactly like one of those subtle put downs. It violates the CoC: "No subtle put-downs or unfriendly language. Even if you don’t intend it, this can have a negative impact on others."
    – vaultah
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:19
  • @Tom Thank you so much for saying that. To me, that comment is so clearly condescending that it is painful. To you, it is not. Who is right?
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:22
  • 2
    I'm right here :P. But honestly if I'm not wrong a comment can still be deleted when multiple users flag it as "unkind" even when a mod declined your specific flag. Or was that only for other types of flags?
    – Tom
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:27
  • 1
    Moderators are elected by the community to make this judgements. You can bring out these cases here to try get a firmer consensus, although in the end the final decision is up to a moderator or above.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:29
  • 8
    I believe is really tenuous borderline case, not worth flagging unless the rest of the conversation was getting toxic. On its own, even if not a shining example, I do not believe it deserves to be flagged as "unkind". It looks to to me that the commenter is ultimately attempting to help there.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:31
  • 4
    Out of context, yes the comment does not seem very warm and fuzzy. But you have to understand that, while there is no such thing as a stupid question, some questions are so positively lazy, unmotivated, and unresearched, that you have no choice but to throw your hands up in frustration and facedesk multiple times.
    – cs95
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:40
  • 4
    That comment is about the person, not the code or the question. That's why it's unkind. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:41
  • 14
    @vaultah Are you seriously trying to accuse the mods of revenge-downvoting you for criticising their flag-handling decisions?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 16:55
  • 4
    @vaultah no no no. You have been downvoted twice by other users. Mods will never do this. Downvotes are there for a reason. Its not a possibility. How do you know that the downvoters are mods? That's really wrong to accuse someone of downvotes.
    – weegee
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:27
  • 2
    @cs95 It sounds like you believe comments should be used to punish the authors of bad questions. From the tour: "Use comments to ask for more information or clarify a question or answer. Remember: we're all here to learn, so be friendly and helpful!" Whenever I'm tempted to write a condescending comment (and I'm tempted a lot), I remember those two sentences. Maybe your argument is that the comment clarifies the question, but my stance is that it doesn't.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:51
  • 4
    @cs95: "I'm only rationalising their behaviour, not defending it." But you did defend it. You said "given the context it isn't as unfriendly (or "unwelcoming", if you please) as made to look here." You're saying that the reason for it is X, and in the context of X, that makes it not so bad. That's defending it; it's a justification for the behavior. Yes, it's undeniable that bad questions often lead to bad comments. But that should not be used to excuse them, to claim that they're not so bad just because they're on bad questions. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:25
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    @cs95: The problem is that I don't agree that this is "borderline". I have a difficult time imagining a context where this comment becomes OK. Even if the question was just "I know what A means and what * does in front of an identifier. But what does *A mean?" that comment is not appropriate. That is, the quality of the question cannot justify a comment this far across the "border". Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:20

6 Answers 6

16

I was the mod who handled the comment flag.

In hindsight, especially after seeing this meta post and the other answers, I probably should have deleted the comment. However, I do agree with Mark that the comment wasn't that unfriendly.

The issue with the borderline flags is that it totally depends on the moderator who is handling these flags. As you can see in this meta post itself, there seems to be a lot of debate on what seems to be unfriendly and what isn't.

I was handling around a bunch of comment flags on that day (June 23rd), when I saw that comment. Whenever I see a person other than the OP flagging a comment as unfriendly, I make sure that I open the post and see as to the context there, and the question did mention a "I know what this is, but I want to know what this other thing is", and the comment was "You know this right? You know some other thing right? Put them together", which certainly didn't seem unfriendly to me. I must admit that the fact about using "right?" seems to be condescending to others has left me confused, because I do use that a lot. I do feel (or atleast had the feeling) that adding a "right?" at the end is similar to asking for a confirmation from the other user. I would certainly love to hear more about this.

I am still not completely convinced that the comment was rude or discourteous. Anyway, the next time I see a "right?" at the end of a comment, I'll try to leave it to the other moderators who have a better grasp at English than me, or will try to learn the usage of "right?" before handling more flags.

Also regarding the comments that I've downvoted the users who opposed my handling, I can assure you that I've not done so.

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    Could the understanding be a linguistic issue? I ask you all. It can be a possibility that the context of the usage of the word "right" depends upon how one interprets it. In normal conversations, even with my teachers, I use the word "right" 10 times and I feel that it's fine and the person I'm talking to also does. Maybe if this is turning into this, then maybe we should open a question at English StackExchange.
    – weegee
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:24
  • 1
    It's actually the terseness of the wording combined with the use of the ", right?" clause that makes this comment come across as condescending. I grew up in the U.S. and frequently when people wanted to be condescending to me, they would use this type of wording to try to make me feel inferior for not already knowing the answer to something. I usually just felt bad for them that they felt superior to someone else just because the knew one more fact. However, a lot of people are put off by other people who speak in a condescending manner.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:32
  • 1
    All that being said, I have been in impromptu meetings with other engineers where the use of the ", right?" clause was to pause to verify that a colleague was following along with a line of reasoning. So I completely understand Bhargav Rao's confusion.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:34
  • Ultimately, my conclusion here is that I will no longer use comment flags. As I've said here already, it has always been my belief that asking us to police each other was ill-advised. I'm just a little astonished that I was right.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:36
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    Comment flag acceptance/declines don't count towards any flag bans or any other penalties, @DavidCullen. So there is no need to quit flagging after getting a single declined flag.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:38
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    Declined flags are meant to be an impetus for users to improve their flagging abilities. Similarly meta posts like these are the motivation for me to strive for more accuracy in flag handling.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:40
  • 1
    Look at how few flags I've used and then look at how high the percentage of declined decisions is. Narrow it down to these "kindness" comment flags. It's a really high false positive rate. Either the system is broken, or I'm bad at flagging, or both. I know I can't produce any more false positives if I stop flagging. It's not news to me that I don't operate well in these "grey" areas.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:42
  • What I've learned here today is that I would have to learn a lot more to become good at flagging posts. I would have to study the subject. I would have to deal with failures and setbacks. I would have to spend more time on Meta. This last problem is more than enough to make the decision to avoid flagging a simple one for me.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:45
  • I have 32 declined flags @David, most of which are from the first few days of flag handling. You'll soon get used to flagging them correctly, if you stick on... But if you've already made the decision that quitting is the only way, I will try not to convince you to continue what you don't like. I do respect your decision.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:46
  • I will admit that I'd be a bit sad and disappointed to see users who are genuinely interested in improving the community, leave.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:47
  • 4
    I'm not leaving the community. I will still answer questions to the best of my ability. Stack Overflow goes out of its way to avoid "grey" areas in questions. Also, working code is a wonderful proof of correctness. However, you and the other moderators have my deepest respect. As you can see, this is my first real direct experience with Meta, and I have hated every minute of it. I admire moderators, police officers, and anyone else who works at the coal face of trying to prevent the world from falling into anarchy.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:51
  • 2
    also it's a comment flag. sometimes they're declined. And the moderators handling the flags are human too, and I can assure that I see a lot of 'unfriendly' for nothing. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 22:29
  • @DavidCullen This is exactly why I said context matters. We finally have an explanation from an authoritative source regarding the context behind the comment (which you left out). The tone of the question makes it a little more plausible that "right?" was used as means for affirmation, rather than condescension. Where I'm from, "right?" is used quite frequently this way.
    – cs95
    Commented Jun 30, 2019 at 2:44
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On the one hand, yeah, I find the comment a bit curt. I'd probably not like to be on the receiving end of it.

I'm not sure I'd label it as "condescending", but only because to my mind "condescension" involves some faux-kindness that's missing here; this is blunt and there's no attempt to hide the implication that the person being addressed is missing something blatantly obvious.

But in the comment's defence, I'm not sure what it could've done better. The comment is basically expressing that the answer is so trivial that the commenter doesn't really understand why the question is being asked. That's likely to be a useful thing to express, since either the answer really is trivial and has now been provided, or it's given the asker insight into how their question is being misperceived so that they can try to make it clearer. But it's a difficult thing - perhaps an impossible thing - to express in a way that most readers will find polite. There's nothing egregious about the tone here; to the extent that the comment is insulting, that's mostly due to the core message it contains.

I don't see a reason for mods to delete it. (And - since this answer has immediately drawn a downvote - I'd argue that the minimum standard anyone who thinks otherwise should meet is to clearly state what the commenter should've done or said instead. As is often the case in these conversations about comment tone, we're currently lacking any alternative.)

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  • "I'd argue that the minimum standard anyone who thinks otherwise should meet is to clearly state what the commenter should've done or said instead" -> "A means this. * means this. When you put them together you'll get this." Or as David already put it: "Also, that comment could have easily been converted into a good answer, especially after removing the unnecessary ", right?" clauses."
    – user2285236
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:12
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    "we're currently lacking any alternative" -- The comment author might have made whatever point they wanted to make about A and * without the superfluous "put these two together" stuff. If the point is obvious, it will presumably be obviously obvious, with no need to point out the obviousness explicitly. If it doesn't address the real question of the OP, as in a XY problem, the OP will be able to say that by replying to the comment.
    – duplode
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:18
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    @Mark: "to my mind "condescension" involves some faux-kindness that's missing here" That's not what "condescension" means: "to behave as if one is conscious of descending from a superior position, rank, or dignity." And the presumption that the OP does not understand what A and * mean in whatever language seems on the face of it very much is that. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:31
  • I'm sure about what could have been done better: The comment author could have made a useful answer or decided not to comment. Both options would have been better than the one that was chosen. I find your lack of imagination disturbing, to paraphrase Darth Vader (It really helps to imagine him saying it).
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 17:41
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    @NicolBolas "the presumption that the OP does not understand what A and *` mean" - Are we interpreting the comment differently? To my eyes, the comment is clearly presuming that the OP does understand what A and * mean. I mean, it literally explicitly says so. Do you take it to be insincere?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:05
  • @ayhan "A means this. * means this. When you put them together you'll get this." - Yes, he could've spelt out A and *, and perhaps it'd be more useful to do so. But more polite? If you spell them out, you risk implying that you don't think the OP knows what A and * are, which just means - if you're having any effect on level of insultingness at all - that you're adding in an extra layer of condescension.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:08
  • @NicolBolas "That's not what "condescension" means" - it's not what the dictionary says it means, but it's how - in my experience - the word is used. Overtly saying "You are stupider than me" doesn't normally get described as "condescension". See for instance quora.com/What-are-some-examples-of-a-condescending-attitude, where user-provided examples of "condescension" all exhibit the faux-niceness quality. Maybe I'm missing some nuance in the meaning of the word, but I think, at least, that the dictionaries are too.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:13
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    @MarkAmery: That's an interesting interpretation of the statements on that Quora question. My interpretation of them is that they're all talking down to the person. They're all implying that the person is having trouble with basic things. Just like the comment under discussion here. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:20
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    @MarkAmery: "I'd argue that the minimum standard anyone who thinks otherwise should meet is to clearly state what the commenter should've done or said instead." If the user believed that the question was so utterly trivial that this was a legitimate response, they should have simply down/closevoted the question as appropriated and moved on. We don't need people to take their time to condescend to a user about their bad question. We need the bad questions downvoted and closed. In the face of a question that is legitimately that trivial, there is nothing productive to say. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:28
  • @NicolBolas Silently downvoting / closevoting and moving on is only preferable as an if we assume that 1) the commenter is definitely correct, not misunderstanding the question, and 2) all else being equal, it's inherently preferable not to provide help to people with stupid questions, even in the form of a comment that won't block the question from getting roombaed. I don't accept the second premise, and I think the former is frequently an unwise thing to take for granted.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:37
  • @MarkAmery: "it's inherently preferable not to provide help to people with stupid questions" At best, stripped of all of its condescending nature, the only informational content is to ask them to verify whether they know what an identifier and an operator means. And I don't see how that is helpful to the person asking the question. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:41
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    @MarkAmery I have made such a suggestion in my first comment to this answer.
    – duplode
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:46
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    @MarkAmery: "But as far as I can see, the sole reason that this comment is taken as condescending is that the solution it's describing is trivial." Yes, but it's kind of hard to explain something to someone who is working from a different dictionary from the rest of us. Saying "you do know the sky is blue, right?" is condescending, but with your definition, it isn't. It's somehow a perfectly neutral statement, without any hint of suggesting that the person you're talking to has less knowledge of basic facts than the average 6 year old. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:48
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    @MarkAmery: I can't find a way to phrase that comment in a more overtly insulting way without putting a direct insult like "you idiot" in there. If that comment is not overt enough in its condescending nature, then nothing is condescending without putting a literal insult in it. That's the problem I have with your answer; you're basically defining a line where we're allowed to be clearly insulting but we get to pretend we're not. That's what the whole "you can Google that in 5 seconds" thing was meant to prevent. Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:57
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    @MarkAmery I can't give a suggestion for the wording of the full comment because I don't know what the question was, and therefore I don't know what A and * are, nor what the comment author wanted to convey about them. That clearly would not be a problem for the comment author.
    – duplode
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:58
6

I would like to thank everyone who commented and answered. This was an illuminating experience.

The conclusion I've come to is that any attempt to guess whether or not the comment in question is unkind is fraught with peril. Some very smart people have argued quite convincingly that this comment is perfectly fine. Some other very smart people have argued the opposite. The best that can be said is that everyone is right, because we are all entitled to our own opinions. And any decision about whether or not this question is unkind is ultimately just an opinion. We don't have a machine that can measure the amount of condescension in this comment.

The only thing I think I can add to the discussion is to remind everyone of that great Latin phrase, "In dubio, abstine". In English we say, "When in doubt, leave it out."

That is to say, if you are composing an answer, or adding a comment, pause at some point and ask yourself, "Is there anything in this, however small, that might be perceived as unkind?" If so, stop writing. Go do something else. There is no question on Stack Overflow that must be answered so hastily that kindness must be sacrificed. At the end of your life, do you want to say, "I answered a great many questions," or would you rather say, "In a cruel world, I was kind."

Especially in your comments, be guided by these words:

Use comments to ask for more information or clarify a question or answer. Remember: we're all here to learn, so be friendly and helpful!

On those days when I don't feel friendly or helpful, I just visit Reddit.

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    "At the end of your life, do you want to say, "I answered a great many questions," or would you rather say, "In a cruel world, I was kind."" - For definitions of "kind" that are violated by a comment like the one here, I'd absolutely rather be able to say the former. Declining to help anybody or do any good in the world if it could conceivably offend somebody isn't noble; it's a tragic waste. Though I don't accept the framing, in any case; declining to provide concrete help to somebody out of fear of causing offence does not fit my conception of what it means to be "kind".
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 14:03
  • I am not suggesting that we avoid helping people because we fear that we might offend someone. I am suggesting that we spend a little more time thinking before we comment or answer to make sure that we are not angry at the question author and that anger is not making its way into our response. As I hopefully showed, with only a little bit of thought, the comment in question could be turned into a good answer. Someone might still be offended, but hopefully it is clear that the change is an improvement.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 17:05
  • "The conclusion I've come to is that any attempt to guess whether or not the comment in question is unkind is fraught with peril" - it's fraught with personal opinion and agenda, I would be more inclined to say. There is unkindness and people trying to find unkindness, in everything. Both have no place on this website.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 7:29
2

Contrary to the various rationalisations elsewhere in this discussion, I'd say the comment does come across as condescending, and that its author could have done better.

An improved comment would have made whatever point they wanted to make about A and * without the "right?" and "put these two together" turns of phrase. The only extra information those turns of phrase appear to convey is an implicit evaluation about the obviousness of the solution. Expressing such an evaluation not only tends to cause tone problems, but also is superfluous: in general, an obvious solution is obviously obvious, and so there is no need to point out the obviousness explicitly.

I can only speculate about the judgement call made by the mod who declined the flag -- it would be useful to have an answer from the mods here. One factor that might have contributed to the decision is that the comment does seem to include relevant on-topic information about the question itself, which might conceivably have led to a mod holding back before deleting it.

4
  • I can see the two uses of "right?" coming across as a tad obnoxious, and have no particular objection to dropping them. But I can't make sense of objecting to the phrase "Put these two together". What's wrong with it? What other phrasing would be less insulting? Is "Use these two together?" better? Is "Using these two features in combination solves your problem?" better?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 19:16
  • 2
    @MarkAmery Without the "you know"s and "right?"s, the "put these two together" wouldn't, on it own, come across badly. "A does X, and * does Y; use them together" is perfectly fine tone-wise, as is "Use A and * together".
    – duplode
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 19:22
  • Okay - I've no objection to either alternative wording you suggest; they convey the same information as the original and are probably mildly less likely to abrade. On the other hand, it's collectively taken us all man-hours of dialogue to get here, and I'm still not certain this addresses the concerns of everyone who found the comment objectionable. Is the tone difference you've achieved really marked enough to justify all that labour? Was the comment objectionable enough before to warrant deletion? Is this a sustainable standard to apply to comments? I think the answer is "no" to all three.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 19:35
  • 2
    @MarkAmery My answers to those questions would be: (1) To me, it was a quite straightforward conclusion to reach, so there wasn't much labour involved; (2) I'm honestly not sure; that's why I didn't pass judgement on the mod call; (3) Yes, it is -- granted, we won't get it 100% right every time, but it is reasonable to strive for tone improvements in comments, even relatively minor ones in situations that wouldn't necessarily justify comment deletion.
    – duplode
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 19:47
-2

The comment referenced in the OP is condescending and unkind. It follows a pattern that appears in many comments: It's not about the question or answer, and it's not about the code. It's about the person.

You know what A means, right? You know what putting a * before a name means, right?

Some other variations on this that I see frequently:

Why would you think that doing "X" would cause "Y"?

What makes you think that "XYZ" will do "ABC?"

Where did you get the idea that ... (you get the idea.)

These aren't the worst type of comments and the intentions may not be bad, but they make a potentially useful comment unnecessarily personal. The person already realizes that they don't know something. That's why they asked the question.

If someone literally answered one of the above comment/questions, what would the answer be? If they didn't understand it, then any answer: "I thought it worked like that because..." would be useless. Do we really want someone to explain why they were wrong about something? What could that accomplish other than making them feel stupid? If we don't want an answer, why ask the question?

It may seem small to some, but the reason why I find it inexcusable is that it's far too easy to rephrase any one of those comments as statements.

Doing "X" doesn't cause "Y".
"XYZ" isn't the same as doing "ABC."

That's so easy and doesn't detract at all from what the comment needs to say, unless the intent really was to make someone feel stupid for not understanding something.

It's often hard to perceive a person's tone or feelings through comments. We can't fully control that, but we don't have to be oblivious of it, either. If we phrase our comments as questions asking why someone doesn't understand something, it's reasonable for them to perceive a superior, condescending tone.

-4

Its tone can be taken as unfriendly or unkind to some users but judging by the core I don't see anything wrong with this comment. While its meaning is to deliberately "put down" the user, judging by the location where you live. It certainly doesn't mean that it's the same on StackOverflow. What if I say that this comment is not taken in the same context by me as you took it?

You know what A means right?

What if the user is trying to check that the OP knows the meaning of A? Or the user is trying to clarify that "Do you know the meaning of A"? I can ask the OP that

Do you know what is b? It a function that does....., Use that

This is not unfriendly or unkind. This can even answer the question.

You know what putting a * before a name means, Right?

Here, the user is again clarifying that does the OP knows what putting a * before a name means. There's nothing wrong here. The user might want some validation regarding the knowledge of the OP and by that, the user can proceed further to put forward their solution.

Put those two together

In the end, the user is even trying to tell what to do after they are validated with the rest of the information they asked. This is again not unfriendly or unkind.

I'd suggest you also read When is a comment hostile or unfriendly

6
  • In your first paragraph you seem to be trying to establish that Stack Overflow gets to have different standard for what's considered insulting than the rest of the world, just because it's Stack Overflow. This is the definition of condescending. The rest of your question is a bizarre attempt to justify the wording of the comment. At the end you link to a post that did not have any information relevant to the issue at hand (that I could find).
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:06
  • @DavidCullen in the question, I linked, there's a part called Poor Flag Examples Kindly see that. Also, Stack Overflow gets to have different standard for what's considered insulting than the rest of the world How do you know about the rest of the world? We know about StackOverflow and the place where you reside. It's not unfriendly or unkind to me.
    – weegee
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:17
  • Yes, I read that part and it's not relevant. None of the example comments could be construed as unkind except by the most naive of readers.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 18:19
  • 2
    If there is not a global standard for kindness, then any effort that anyone using Stack Overflow makes to be kind is in vain. However, I believe that kindness is universal and I'm not the first person to make such an assertion. I also believe that being kind requires significantly more effort than not which is why kindness is in such short supply. And oftentimes, the kindest thing I can do is keep my mouth shut, which is why I rarely do anything as silly as post a question on Meta.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 19:53
  • Ah, you have fallen into my trap. I have always believed that Stack Overflow's plan to recruit users to police other users was doomed to failure: If you ask amateurs to act as front-line security personnel, you shouldn't be surprised when you get amateur security.. If Stack Overflow really wants to police its users' behavior, it needs to hire and pay police. I'm guessing that would cut too deeply into profits to ever happen.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:14
  • Also, the paid YouTube and Facebook police have been traumatized.
    – user3657941
    Commented Jun 29, 2019 at 20:19

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