-2

Rambling introduction

Most of the other network sites are doing fine, but Stack Overflow… is currently having some issues. Could we revisit the Reputation for useful flag proposal?

The diamond moderators, I gather, are already rather good at marking helpful flags as helpful and unhelpful flags as unhelpful. The "automated" system does the rest. However, not flagging / closing things is currently incentivised by the system.

Our best moderation tool is the community. Community moderation is essential for the site's continued success. So why isn't it incentivised?

Proposal

  • Helpful "flags" (including close / delete votes) should earn a small amount of reputation for the flagger, upon the "helpful" decision being made. I want to say +2, but +1 would be fine.

    Even fractional reputation would be good, though I hate to think how that could be implemented. (A separate counter of "replings" that, upon overflow, would add a single point?)

  • This reputation is conditional on the state caused by the flag's action being maintained.

    Example: If users A, B and C flag a question for closure, and users D, E and [ • tag ] F cast binding votes, they get the reputation. If G, H, I, J and K re-open it, they gain reputation and A–F lose the reputation again. However, if it's then re-closed by [ • other-tag] L, A–F regain the reputation, G–K lose it and L gets it for the first time.

  • Flag limits continue to function as normal.
  • (Depending on whether the SO diamond moderator team think this would be useful,) no such reputation bonus for custom moderator flags. This'll incentivise people to use the existing ones. (This might not be necessary, considering that custom flags will be less likely to get the "bonus" if they shouldn't be custom flags…)

Reasoning

Flags and close votes and stuff are currently dis-incentivised on Stack Overflow. You can get more reputation from writing an answer than dup-voting. The reputation system serves no purpose if it's not actively encouraging good behaviour.

Additionally, more flags on things as they come in has a two-fold benefit:

  • Stuff gets dealt with faster.
  • If things are hit with enough flags, the system (sometimes) deals with them "automatically", reducing the load on the queues.

This might be prone to abuse, but the existing flag limit system deals with that quite nicely. I anticipate a brief spike of flags upon implementation, followed by those who are abusing the system getting flag banned and no longer finding it efficient.

(In anticipation of this, it might be prudent to only give pre-200-rep new users only a couple of flags until they've proven themselves with helpful ones.)

Please also note that the existing system is prone to abuse, too.

Many other sites are getting on fine with the system as it is. Stack Overflow of the past was getting on fine with the system as it is. Stack Overflow now? Not so much.

Would this proposal be useful? Have I missed anything glaringly obvious?

7
  • 2
    You can already earn badges about such actions. Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 20:41
  • 6
    badges ain't no reputation. I mean, having badges is nice, but the main motivator is rep, istn't it? I like the idea, as it encourages a much needed behavior (to keep clean the site)
    – PavoDive
    Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 20:43
  • 1
    @πάνταῥεῖ Badges are very delayed gratification, whereas the (proposed) reputation system for helpful flags is similar to that for helpful answers (i.e. acceptably-short delay, but sufficiently long to prevent too much gaming).
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 20:44
  • @PavoDive "badges ain't no reputation. I mean, having badges is nice, but the main motivator is rep, istn't it?" Well, gaining badges might unlock privileges you can't get just from reputation. Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 20:49
  • 1
    @πάνταῥεῖ Tag badges, and that's it.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 20:50
  • 2
    I do need to point out that high-rep users could potentially have 100 post flags, 100 comment flags, 50 close votes, and 30 delete votes, for a total of up to 280 rep per day, or 560 if +2 rep. If it doesn't count towards the rep cap, users could potentially earn 480/760 reputation per day with no accepts and no bounties. Doesn't exactly seem fair Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 20:54
  • 1
    "if +2 rep. If it doesn't count towards the rep cap," Good point. The main idea requires neither of these things to be true, though. I don't see why it shouldn't fall under the rep cap; +2s from edits do.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 20:56

2 Answers 2

23

This might be prone to abuse, but the existing flag limit system deals with that quite nicely.

No, no it doesn't. It's perfectly fine at tolerating very small numbers of abusive flags given that there's almost no incentives to abusively flag content, and so very few people do it. By creating huge incentives for people to flag content, abusive flags are going to skyrocket, well beyond what the current system can keep up with. On top of that, if you just go around spamming flags on whatever, even if you get flag banned for a few days every now and then, you'll still be earning rep from all of the flags you cast between bans. This is simply enormously open to abuse, well beyond what the system can handle.

This also means that users are going to be even more upset than they already are at any declined flags, and will start complaining to the ends of the earth every time a flag isn't marked helpful, as it's costing them Imaginary Internet Points.

Finally, it creates major false incentives. Rather than flagging content because you actually think it's a problem and want it fixed, you have people flagging content for the rewards. Even for those not being intentionally abusive and flagging completely randomly, these extrinsic motivations are far less effective than the intrinsic motivations people have.

Finally, and probably the biggest nail in the coffin, the problem SE has is not in flagging potentially problematic content, it's in having qualified capable reviewers to evaluate that content and see if action is in fact merited. We already aren't reviewing a huge percentage of the flags cast. We don't need more people telling others what content needs curation, we need more people qualified to actually curate content.

So all in all there's basically no possible room for upside, because the problem with the site isn't lack of flags, and doing this would only add more noise to the people handling flags, wasting their valuable time sifting through the abusive flags of people not actually interested in improving the site.

1
  • 1
    You're right; that is the biggest nail in the coffin. It's a pretty big nail.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 21:09
11

No.

Reputation for flagging will incentivize behavior we really don't need - mindless flagging to collect reputation.

It is also against the current long-standing policy - reputation is given for visible contributions. The only flag that has a "visible contribution" is close question - while this possibly may be useful, I doubt at this point giving reputation for close votes/flags would help (if closing stays the current level, flags will simply age out. Otherwise there is a good chance of "VTC for rep" farming).

5
  • 1
    One other problem that could arise is close vote rings that close for an instance questions on low-visibility tags. They could close everything, regardless of quality, just for the rep. The abuse potential here is far too big compared to the advantages. Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 21:13
  • @Zoe what if we deduct some rep for junk flags? Like very little rep. That will allow the flags to carry some weight
    – weegee
    Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 21:23
  • 2
    @weegee - if only we would be able to automatically decide what flags are junk... So far any flag requires non-trivial effort of one or more people. See excellent point from Servy's answer - " it's in having qualified capable reviewers to evaluate that content and see if action is in fact merited"... Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 21:27
  • What do yo mean by "if closing stays a current level"?. Do you mean "if closing stays at the current level"? Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 22:26
  • @PeterMortensen "at the current level" (Really appreciate your edits!) Commented Jun 27, 2019 at 22:56

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .