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I dupehammered Sorting contents of file alphabetically with trailing numbers (*) (another one of the "I want do sort a list of strings by part of a string (which is a number)") with following dupe targets:

The answer to this kind of questions are:

  • use the key parameter to sort using either
    • regex to extract a tuple of things to sort by or
    • use string splitting to get the same tuple

There are dozends to hundreds of questions like this on SO - answers are always the same, the difference is maybe the special kind of "function" provided as key.

The question got unhammered : https://stackoverflow.com/posts/55844977/revisions

which leaves me with my own question:

How perfect does a dupe need to be?


(*) The question itself is perfectly fine - it contains data, attempt, problemstatement, wanted result

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  • 8
    It was reopened by one goldbadger. The pertinent question is: was that a correct choice? IMO: no.
    – Gimby
    Apr 25, 2019 at 9:44
  • 1
    It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to answer the base question, for example in the JavaScript tag a lot of question are about getting the value from something asynchronous and are dupe hammered, even though the answer to that question doesn't directly answer the OP it does give them enough information to answer it themselves. Also I agree with Gimby, shouldn't of got unhammered.
    – George
    Apr 25, 2019 at 9:52
  • 1
    Side-note: In my personal experience (mostly java tag), there are many cases where dupe-Mjölnir smites based on the answer rather than the question. I find it a bit tricky. On one hand, the target answer will solve dupe OP's problem with some research. On the other hand, it adds some indirection with regards to search indexing et al. I guess nothing's black or white.
    – Mena
    Apr 25, 2019 at 10:42
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    @Mena that's exactly the purpose of the dupe closure, to direct people to the right answer without having to duplicate said answer.
    – Gimby
    Apr 25, 2019 at 10:45
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    For future reference, the asker of the question mentioned in a now deleted answer that they did find the answer to their issue in the first dupe target.
    – yivi
    Apr 25, 2019 at 10:48
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    @Gimby I'd argue that's not the only purpose. Exact duplicate questions do occur, e.g. when op is engaged enough to write a proper question but too lazy (or unlucky) to find the dupe beforehand.
    – Mena
    Apr 25, 2019 at 10:48
  • @Mena The dupe link will still be because of a pre-existing answer, not because questions are word for word the same. You're just describing another occurrence of the exact same action: dupe close to link to an existing answer. Whether someone is lazy or not has absolutely no bearing on it. Besides that, the closure is more for all future attendees than for the OP itself.
    – Gimby
    Apr 25, 2019 at 11:21
  • 1
    @Gimby I don't think I've managed to communicate well enough on this. The only thing I meant was that questions are often labeled as duplicates either because of non-duplicate existing questions whose answer answers the new question, or because both questions are virtually identical. The second case is pretty obvious. While the first case can be harder to understand for both newcomers and sometimes seasoned users, it is common practice and works intended, albeit at the cost of some indirection. That's pretty much all I meant.
    – Mena
    Apr 25, 2019 at 11:32
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    @Mena unfortunately using SO requires some ability to read and comprehend text - not just copy-paste code blindly... While "This question already has an answer here:" banner on duplicates may be too hard to understand by some I don't see how it can be made shorter to explain that "the question asked in this post already has existing set of answers that cover this topic and can be found at the link below". Maybe you are trying to suggest that "duplicate" is not an ideal word for this - consider if new feature request with better wording is appropriate. Apr 26, 2019 at 0:36
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    I disagree with dupe-closing just because an answer would work. The question has to cover the same grounds as well. I also think that in some cases a question could benefit from a tailored answer, rather than being dupe-closed with a generic question. However in this case, I personally don't believe that any new, useful information is present in the tailored answer, and I doubt reopening was the right choice.
    – g00glen00b
    Apr 26, 2019 at 6:11
  • I downvoted the question because it's ... very poorly researched. The attempt is ... weak, and unlikely to add value. They need to start with: "why doesn't sorted(['11', '2', '1', '3']) work the way I expect".. and that's been answered many times. Then they can get a bit closer.
    – jpp
    Apr 26, 2019 at 9:25
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    @jpp yet, in 3 questions (both here and another that shared titles), I haven't seen the answer that explains it.
    – Braiam
    Apr 26, 2019 at 10:23
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    We need some feedback from the person who unhammered this. Personally I feel they're wrong and Patrick is correct, but context is always important. I've also voted to close the question as a dupe again with the original target.
    – Ian Kemp
    Apr 26, 2019 at 12:22
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    @jpp lets be serious for a second. If I didn't know that re returned a string to sorted, would I ever figure out that the problem is how sorted treat strings vs integers/floats? This isn't poor research, but poor meta-cognition. OP doesn't know what he doesn't know, and that's a hard problem to solve. No amount of research would help you there, since you don't know what to search for.
    – Braiam
    Apr 26, 2019 at 14:21
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    no one has even acknowledged that the person that un-hammered it turned around and answered it and got the checkmark when they could of just added another duplicate question for the missing meta-problem. abuse of privileges much? People doing this kind of thing is why I had them reset my account and make sure I do not break 150 rep so I would not be tempted to waste my time on the site anymore. I am just bored right now, compiling :-)
    – user10677470
    Apr 26, 2019 at 15:30

2 Answers 2

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The fact that questions do not have to be even close to exact to be duplicates is even further re-enforced by the fact that you can close a question as a duplicate of multiple questions now. Mainly because the site is flooded with the same beginner questions in every language/technology with multiple questions/problems in each question to the point that a single duplicate target only answers one of the questions in the question.

That question should not have been un-hammered, if the person that did it thought there was a better duplicate target they should have added it or replaced the ones already there ( you can put up to 5 duplicate targets per question ) or just left it alone. It is not worth of being open for multiple other reasons as well as far as I am concerned. But what they did was just as lazy as the OP not researching before asking the question to begin with.

There are two competing factions of "community moderators" that that think every question is sacred and nothing should ever be closed for any reason, especially questions with multiple questions like this one and especially duplicates because the person asking is different makes it a completely different question.

And those that are of the opinion that if you can not find what a Null Pointer Exception is before asking a question you do not deserve to even get pointed to the duplicate much less the effort to fixed your code and post a copy/paste answer so you do can expend even less effort to get your promotion at work to management. it is probably obvious which camp I lean towards.

I think un-hamming and answering it borders on abuse of privileges as well and have argued many times in the past, that if you un-hammer a duplicate you should not be allowed to answer it. Just like answering and the hammering it as a duplicate to keep competing answers from being added is the other side of the abuse coin.

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  • 2
    There are two competing factions of "community moderators" that that think every question is sacred and nothing should ever be closed for any reason - I would argue those aren't actually engaging in moderating. Hard to call them moderators or curators when the tools aren't being used.
    – fbueckert
    Apr 26, 2019 at 15:13
  • I have sympathy for Jarrod's point-of-view. What should have happened after the dupehammer is the question should have been improved to reflect what had been learnt via the duplicate. A better quality specific question would likely have been more readily accepted. (And, of course, improves SO.)
    – jpp
    Apr 26, 2019 at 15:26
  • " The fact that questions do not have to be even close to exact to be duplicates is even further re-enforced by the fact that you can close a question as a duplicate of multiple questions now" Which is why I don't believe this feature had to be ever introduced. A question with multiple duplicates is a too broad question. They are asking several questions in a single post. If that's not too broad, someone please correct me.
    – Braiam
    Apr 26, 2019 at 20:40
  • it is "Too Broad" but getting something with multiple questions closed promptly is next to impossible. Those in the first camp just think it is that much more reason to never close anything, those questions are even more of a challenge to answer and those people need the most help, etc. ... again why I quit the site, it is a turing tarpit that is just making the industry worse.
    – user10677470
    Apr 26, 2019 at 22:33
  • I think that if you want to make other close reasons more effective, you are barking at the wrong tree. The only reason why we needed 5 users was to slow down the close-reopen wars, the wars never stopped, but we are stuck with the 5 users to close. Focus on reverting that feature instead.
    – Braiam
    Apr 26, 2019 at 23:02
3

Answers can serve as a hint towards questions being duplicates, but that is not the only consideration. To know what a duplicate means, lets go back to the time the feature was introduced as part of the system, shall we?

At first, you could mark any question as duplicate of another question, even if that other question had no answers. Having an answer wasn't required for closing duplicates. So, how did the "if they have the same answers, they are duplicates" work? It didn't. The requirement to only allowing questions to be closed against questions with an accepted or positively scored answer was because it was argued that we were robbing the opportunity to the answerer from answering a fresh question, which would motivate them. The reasoning was: if two questions without answer are duplicate, once one is answered, we close the other one against the answered one.

This requirement was bastardized, in part because another rule of thumb that was bastardized, into the current "if they have the same answer, they are duplicates". This blog post even argues against the incarnation of such rule of thumb. But, enough of that, you ask "How perfect does a [duplicate] needs to be?". Not perfect, word for word, the same question, but they have to be semantically the same question, or for the non-linguist among us: ask for the exact same thing, using different words.

How to know if two questions are semantically the same question? An actual good rule of thumb is to think of all possible answers to both questions. This can be used for both knowing when to questions aren't duplicates and when they are. If there's a potential answer that applies to one question, but not the other: they are not duplicate, just related. Note, this is just a rule of thumb, not an universal one. It's good for fast decisions, but don't marry to it.

In this specific case, if you remove all irrelevant information from the questions, would they still be the same?

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