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https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/382694

Based on a discussion of the comments of another self-deleted answer, this answer was deleted by a community manager, and someone (a mod? A CM?) was quoted saying: "This isn't an argument we wish to give you a platform to make, and we have no obligation to do so".

From my admittedly limited perspective, it sounds like that this post was deleted because it made a "forbidden argument", rather than being something that was against the CoC. However, this quote may be in reference to a comment, rather than an argument made in the answer. It also might not have been made by the entity that deleted the answer.

Assuming it was the "forbidden argument", what was it? Why was this answer deleted?

I would hate to accidentally make such an argument out of ignorance, and suffer mod/CM wrath because of it.

EDIT:

Now that I can see the answer, thanks to the image, it seems like the arguments made here are little different than those in this answer, such as "biological differences", "I don't see a problem that needs to be solved", and "If fewer women choose to become programmers, so what?"

So I'm having trouble spotting the "forbidden argument" that exists in one answer, but not the other.

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  • @davidism That assumes that the "someone" that was quoted here was the same person that deleted the answer. That might not be true
    – user773737
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:11
  • 3
    Try this argument: what makes it worthy of keeping, exactly? I don't see anything in there which is constructive or really motivates a positive discussion about this matter.
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:21
  • @Makoto I couldn't tell you, as I can't see it. From my perspective, it seems like someone crossed a political line by bringing up a "forbidden argument", hence the question.
    – user773737
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:24
  • @davidism: This is more for the sake of discussing the specific answer. We're not allowing the OP of this answer any air-time nor are we discussing the subject matter. We're discussing the post, and the post only. Furthermore the OP couldn't see this and thus couldn't form a complete perspective on the answer. If the post isn't good then the discussion is going to be pretty quick, isn't it? (I also didn't see a comment to the OP's effect on this answer...)
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:38
  • @davidism: Where? I'm not seeing that in the comment chain.
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:40
  • 1
    @davidism: To be totally fair, if they wanted to remove the answer, employees have the power to completely remove it. Or at the very least, do what they do for "spam/abusive" posts (edit them down to nothing, with a link to the history if you really want to read it). Leaving it deleted means that it's visible for 10k+ rep users. Apr 11, 2019 at 1:41
  • Right - echoing Nicol's sentiment, I wouldn't have linked to it if it was genuinely not something that the CMs wanted us to discuss.
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:42
  • Ah - I found the comment - meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/309908/…. So, fair play; I'll remove the image.
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:48
  • Looks like a repost. More things make sense now @davidism. I'll just compile my thoughts into an answer on it now since I finally have all the context I need.
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:49
  • 1
    @Makoto the image still exists in the edit history, but I suppose you could raise a special flag for that.
    – user773737
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:50
  • 11
    Not sure if there is or isn't a "forbidden argument" but that deleted answer wasn't constructive at all. The analogy with "pregnant men"? It seems to be trolling to me. Apr 11, 2019 at 2:24
  • 3
    @Houseman You can't really compare the deleted post with the one you linked. In the latter, the poster actually gives scientific sources for their claims instead of just dropping a long rant of personal opinions. There's no denying that men and women are different biologically. If that somehow has an impact on the choice of career isn't really something that average Joe can/should speculate about. But If there's scientific research leading to such conclusions then of course we must be able to discuss that.
    – Lundin
    Apr 11, 2019 at 13:28
  • @Lundin So the only difference is that one cited sources, while the other didn't?
    – user773737
    Apr 11, 2019 at 14:20
  • 1
    @Houseman The main difference is that one is subjective and the other is objective. Objective, open-minded discussion = good. Subjective personal opinions = bad.
    – Lundin
    Apr 11, 2019 at 14:24

2 Answers 2

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There was no discernable good-faith attempt at contributing to the discussion. Multiple users, staff members and moderators felt that the 'answer' was barely more than an incendiary rant, and I fully agreed. There was just so much wrong with it that it wasn't worth saving, and comments strongly indicated that any additional criticism of the views expressed wouldn't be met favorably. So, I deleted it, hoping that the strong evidence of contention, along with the down votes, along with the fact that it was removed would be sufficient.

I've been doing this for quite a while (8+ years), it's not a stretch to think that should have done it.

But it didn't. The answer was re-posted, exactly as before, and it was again quickly obvious that the person who wrote it wasn't interested in having a discussion about what was wrong with it. At this point it's becoming clear that they're more interested in the effect their 'point' is having rather than the point itself, so I left a very strong comment.

I completely stand behind all actions I took.

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  • 3
    I'm curious since I'm internally unsure about how such things could be best handled without giving people who were only interested in rants a persecution complex: Do you think having that answer out in the open, but thoroughly downvoted and refuted would be a valid choice as well, or would that amount to bait for people to get lost in needless and unuseful discussion?
    – Magisch
    Apr 11, 2019 at 13:09
  • 3
    I'll be the first to admit that the comment, shorn of context, made me jump straight to a bad faith interpretation of those actions. When explaining those actions, though, it seems far more reasonable. I apologize for the accusation I made.
    – fbueckert
    Apr 11, 2019 at 13:25
  • 8
    @Magisch A "head on a stake" can be problematic for many reasons. The answer was incendiary and had no use other than making people angry. I can't conceive a well-articulated version of that argument lacking hyperbole and fallacy (thus, also likely to be very incendiary), but I wouldn't delete it if it somehow appeared simply because I disagreed with it, I'd leave a comment saying I speak for the company and we disagree with it. I don't know if you can make an argument with facts that just don't exist, so it would depend on what someone pulled out of thin air.
    – Tim Post
    Apr 11, 2019 at 13:36
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    I don't like this kind of interference, why not let the vote speak ? This action is on the red line.
    – Stargateur
    Apr 11, 2019 at 14:08
  • 20
    @Stargateur Us permitting certain things on our platform can be seen as an endorsement of those things, however tacit it might be. It is rare, but there are certain kinds of things that we simply will not host, and I submit that it's those things that cross a red line. We are not a government, and we will remove content that violates our code of conduct or does nothing but create disruption.
    – Tim Post
    Apr 11, 2019 at 14:12
  • 20
    @Stargateur It's not censorship, but I have a feeling that we will disagree on that.
    – Tim Post
    Apr 11, 2019 at 14:15
  • 4
    @Stargateur Users (not staff, not moderators) are able to delete negatively scored answers if they see fit. It's a 20.000 reputation privilege. This post was before Tim made the executive decision to delete it already heading that way. It's not really censorship, more quality control. Irky viewpoints aside (and there are), this post's quality was sufficiently lacking to support its deletion on those merits alone.
    – Magisch
    Apr 11, 2019 at 14:18
  • 9
    @Houseman The sarcastic humor, the undertones in the other paragraphs (when you know something is likely to be ill-received, you need to exercise more care in how you defend it), all of the comments (deleted and visible) as well as a myriad of complaints piling up .. this one was different in enough ways that sent it across some lines.
    – Tim Post
    Apr 11, 2019 at 14:19
  • 7
    @Stargateur It can be both. Posting a trashy rant will get you downvoted, posting disagreeable stuff will too. In this case it was both. Besides being a quite bad argument largely unsupported by reality, it was also an antagonistic rant and borderline rude or abusive.
    – Magisch
    Apr 11, 2019 at 14:21
  • 3
    I appreciate that you answered here. As already mentioned in the other Q/A: The answer in question was shallow, inconsiderate, and unnecessary. But I don't see how it should have violated the CoC. Therefore, simply deleting it, vaguely talking about an "argument+platform" is problematic. It was just a "bad" answer, and the downvotes already started raining. Deleting it will (yeah, make some people scream "censorship!!11", but) at least give the impression that certain arguments are not allowed, and that there's a questionable amount of ‎arbitrariness in the moderation...
    – Marco13
    Apr 11, 2019 at 16:28
  • 5
    This is a bad justification for deletion. That answer was relevant to the question, and was no more badly argued, no more bigoted, and no more insulting to the other side, than Jay Hanlon's "welcoming" post or plenty of the commentary that's been posted by Stack Exchange staff. I can't speak to the supposed abusive comments that led to the suspension, since I have not seen them. But, bluntly, it seems to me that this post was treated differently - to the point of threatening suspension over it - primarily because you disagreed with the political beliefs expressed in it. That's not okay.
    – Mark Amery
    Apr 11, 2019 at 17:56
  • 8
    The suspension was fully justified, @Mark. The comments motivating it were in flagrant violation of the CoC. Regarding the answer itself, I tend to agree with you. When moderating Meta, I try to check my own (strong) political beliefs at the door, and while the site has the right to suppress this material (a la the XKCD), I think it’s important that they tread very lightly in doing so for a variety of reasons. I see what irks Tim and others about it. Yet I wouldn’t have deleted it. I think downvotes send a stronger signal. I also don’t think allowing this to be posted suggests endorsement. Apr 11, 2019 at 19:59
  • 7
    At the same time, it’s not valuable enough that I think it would be worth another moment arguing over it or protesting its deletion. Tim is a reasonable, level-headed person, and this is very far from creating a slippery slope. Apr 11, 2019 at 20:00
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    @YvetteColomb "Trust me, I'm a highly political person" I know, that was pretty obvious from your original question. "A problem we have." Thinking demographic differences as a problem is a political stance. In the opposing political sphere we find top-down social engineering to be authoritarian, divisive, and almost always counterproductive to it's own goals.
    – gunfulker
    Apr 12, 2019 at 1:01
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    @EthanTheBrave Deleting SPAM is, arguably, censorship as well. Some of my colleagues are more amenable to simply embracing the concept and saying look, some censorship is necessary in order to maintain a thriving, rule-abiding community. I feel the word takes on a very pejorative sense, and speaks more to intent than action when it goes from curation to moderation to censorship, so I'm just probably not going to align with your view, as much as I don't disagree with you, if that makes sense?
    – Tim Post
    Apr 18, 2019 at 12:34
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So this might take a moment to unpack...

The original answer was deleted by a CM because the conversation after the answer was posted started turning downright hostile. As in, the OP decided to comment that this wasn't a constructive answer and didn't contribute anything to the conversation.

But instead of taking the hint about this, it was reposted. This is where the CM came in with the comment:

enter image description here

What happened next is between that person and the moderators.

So, long story short: the answer posted wasn't exactly constructive or conducive to the conversation, and the follow-up from the post wasn't going to make this into a good discussion, either. So, it was removed - which is totally justified by the CoC.

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  • "As in, the OP decided to comment that this wasn't a constructive answer and didn't contribute anything to the conversation." Do you mean "the CM decided to comment..."?
    – user773737
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:56
  • Actually, it was originally the OP that commented on the answer, which likely kicked things off. I'm...not going to put a picture in of that comment thread for Reasons™...
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 1:57
  • "The original question was deleted by a CM" Do you mean "the original answer"? The question still exists, right?
    – user773737
    Apr 11, 2019 at 2:00
  • Now that was a legitimate slip, thanks for catching it.
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 2:01
  • Cool. One last thing to help me understand: the OP commented on their OWN answer that "this wasn't a constructive answer and didn't contribute anything to the conversation"?
    – user773737
    Apr 11, 2019 at 2:03
  • The OP of the question commented on the answer in question saying that it wasn't constructive.
    – Makoto
    Apr 11, 2019 at 2:03
  • 2
    Oh okay, now it makes sense. It seems that the content of the answer wasn't too different from other answers, but I'm relieved that just arguing something like "biological differences" doesn't seem to be forbidden.
    – user773737
    Apr 11, 2019 at 2:06

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