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I was searching for questions to answer and I found this one: Shuffling list of dictionnaries always return the same list noticed it is labelled to be duplicate of How to clone or copy a list?

I would like to object. The person thinks that there's something wrong with his shuffling, and doesn't realize that it's the problem in copying.

I think the question should be answered with:

new_dict = dict_student doesn't create a copy, it just creates another reference to the same list object. See the duplicate

as it is in a comment, with See the duplicate replaced with

See the answer to How to clone or copy a list?

If someone has the same problem, they will not search for question about copying; they will search for questions that mention shuffling, potentially only those that have answers. So, they will not find this question, because it doesn't have an answer.

The only reason I stumbled across this question is because it was not answered. If this was my problem, I would search for questions with answers, and so I would not find this one.

Thus I think this question is related to the older question, but not really a duplicate.

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    wait... so your answer is "With new_list = my_list, you don't actually have two lists. The assignment just copies the reference to the list, not the actual list, so both new_list and my_list refer to the same list after the assignment."? (cause... That's the first line in the dupe of the answer... so it seems you agree the dupe is ok)
    – Patrice
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:12
  • I do not agree it's a dupe. See the If someone has the same problem, they will not search for question about copying; they will search for questions that mention shuffling, potentially only those that have answers. So, they will not find this question, because it doesn't have an answer. part. Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:14
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    Then you misunderstand dupes. "I search for shuffling, find the shuffling question" -> "I go on the shuffling question" -> "I see the dupe notice" -> "I follow the dupe link" -> "I have my answer". That's how the duplicate system is supposed to work.
    – Patrice
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:15
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    So, the way we make sense of duplicate is "if the answers to one apply to the other, they are duplicate". It's not about the question, it's about the answers.
    – Patrice
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:22
  • @Patrice when I have a problem, I search for questions with answers. So I would not see such a dupe notice. Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:37
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    ok, but that's how you use the system. That's not how it was intended or designed. Maybe you need to change how you look at these questions then, cause you're likely missing some good content by only looking at that
    – Patrice
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:48
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    Wow, I got -5 for my question.... I know all of you disagree with me, but does that make it a bad question that shouldn't have been asked? Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:54
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    @Granny in meta many times down-votes are used to express disagreement, on top of the usual meaning pointed out by the tooltip. Vote are casted much more liberally on meta.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:56
  • See also: How to shuffle a copied list without shuffling the original list?, which I've added as an additional duplicate.
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 15:28
  • @jpp Awesome. That one is an actual duplicate! Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 18:48
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    @GrannyAching real question should be "why people don't care to create MCVE". If author of linked question actually tried to create MCVE they would have found that random.shuffle(new_dict) line is absolutely not necessary... and hence they question not about shuffle at all... But requiring to put an effort is borderline not welcoming - so now it is your responsibility to edit post to make it clear - by either removing shuffle part or adding another duplicates that cover all variations. Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 23:02
  • @AlexeiLevenkov - Are you telling me to go to SO and change the wording of the shuffling question? Commented Mar 12, 2019 at 13:40
  • @GrannyAching Given that it's a duplicate, there's not really any point. If the question wasn't something with numerous duplicates, and was in fact something novel and to which an answer could actually be useful, then yes, editing the question to remove irrelevant information would be useful. But the duplicates mean there's no need to do that.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 12, 2019 at 14:46

2 Answers 2

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If someone has the same problem, they will not search for question about copying; they will search for questions that mention shuffling, potentially only those that have answers. So, they will not find this question, because it doesn't have an answer.

The idea is if someone has the problem, they will find the unanswered question about shuffling, notice the large banner pointing the user to the duplicate Q&A, follow the link and then find the answer which ~2,700 people have found helpful. Win-win for everyone.

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  • Am I really the only person who searched for questions with answers when I have a problem? Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:43
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    @GrannyAching, I'm not sure. I search for questions, not answers, when I use Google or another search tool. If the question doesn't have an answer, I follow the duplicate link if it exists. Concentrating useful material is what makes SO so successful.
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:44
  • When I have a problem, I search for questions with answers. When I want to help, I search for questions without answers. I'm sure different people have different ways, but I'm guessing that some use my strategy. Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:47
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    If a user without an account encounters a dupe, they are silently redirected to the original. They won't even see the dupe. That's definitely a win for everybody.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:47
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    @GrannyAching, I suggest you not restrict yourself to questions with answers. XY problems are almost always duplicates. You are missing out on the connections SO prides itself in making via the duplicate-marking process.
    – jpp
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 15:01
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    @GrannyAching Why are you using SO search in the first place when you're trying to find a solution to your problem? Not only is it going to do a worse job of finding good content than a real search engine, but a real search engine will be able to point you to good answers anywhere on the whole internet. You're just needlessly hurting yourself by not searching the entire rest of the internet.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 15:43
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    @GrannyAching There are closed:0 criteria or something like that to filter out closed questions.
    – user202729
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 16:55
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That question is a dupe because it's an X/Y problem.

The asker thinks that the problem is X (list shuffling), when it's actually about Y (copying vs. cloning).

There is nothing to be gained by answering it directly. The closer was even polite enough to point the asker into the right direction in a comment. But if they followed the dupe link and read the Q&A they would have very quickly realized their mistake.

If someone has the same problem, they will not search for question about copying; they will search for questions that mention shuffling, potentially only those that have answers. So, they will not find this question, because it doesn't have an answer.

Dupes serve as way signs, pointing users to the place where the answers are. So if they find that question because of its specific keywords, it will become useful to direct them to the place where the actual answer is.

Your point about looking for questions with answers is rather far-fetched, IMO. Users search for their problem using keywords related to the issue they are facing. If a question contain those keywords and they find it, they will be redirected to the appropriate dupe.

Most users come from external search engines, and that's the expected behaviour. If you use SO's search engine to find answers, I advise you to change tack and use Google or something similar. The internal search engine is more useful if you are looking for questions to answer than for looking answers to questions.

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    Note as well than the closer is our top ranked Python expert, and a moderator at that. Not that that would mean they are automatically right, but just that it's probably worth not to dismiss their advise carelessly.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:27
  • This wasn't my question. This is a question I found when searching for questions I could answer. Also, I am not carelessly dismissing the closer. I thought about it and decided I feel strongly enough to post in meta. Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:30
  • About: Dupes serve as way signs, pointing users to the place where the answers are. So if they find that question because of its specific keywords... -- that's exactly my point. If one searched for questions with answers, they will not find it. Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:39
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    Edited so it no longer says it's your question. Thanks for pointing it out. The bit about Martijn is an aside from the answer. I wouldn't get hung on that. Didn't want to imply you were uneccessary dismissive, but to point out that we are lucky to have user of that caliber curating and moderating questions directly.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:39
  • I edited my question -- see the second to last paragraph. Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 14:41
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    @GrannyAching: "This is a question I found when searching for questions I could answer." If you're going to look for questions you can answer, shouldn't you look for open questions? Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 15:54
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    @Nicol Bolas - it was open when it appeared on my search list Commented Mar 11, 2019 at 18:50

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