48

I've been given guidance by at least one mod that if I include a link to the answer being duplicated in my flag, the duplicate answer should be deleted. There is also precedent on Meta for this:

What you should be looking out for is identical (or nearly identical) answers posted weeks, months or even years later. In those cases follow the advice in milz's answer. Also be on the look out for spam hidden in obscure places.

ChrisF - Oct 19 '14 at 17:47

More recent precedent for deletion of duplicated answers being a proper use case of a flag: Declined flag on answer copying another answer in its entirety, although with attribution; the reasoning there by Yvette was:

But, the answers were completely the same, and really don't offer value. So I should have deleted it.

Yvette - Feb 23 '19 at 4:27

I have mod-flagged such answers for deletion on several occasions, all with success. Yesterday, however, I went through and downvoted/mod-flagged six answers, but they were each declined (screenshot) with the message:

flags should only be used to make moderators aware of content that requires their intervention

Note that I do not have 20k+ reputation, so I cannot vote to delete answers at all.

The aforementioned mod said they'd ask about it in mod chat, and two other mods also indicated in chat (in addition to the mod guidance linked above) that they'd have deleted the answers had they handled the flags. Unfortunately, the mod has not received any response there as of yet.

Is this a case where it's left up to each mod to handle as they see fit, or was a mod perhaps unaware of an (informal?) mod policy?

Here's the list of answers I flagged, in order of lowest score to highest score:

16
  • 4
    Are you looking for a response that's specifically about the flags you mentioned, or a discussion about general policy? If you're looking for responses about the specific flags, then, as with many things, the details may be what mattered to the moderator. It's difficult to form an independent opinion about the specific flags without knowing A) the answers which you flagged, and, at least, the answer you linked in each flag which you were directing the moderator to as a duplicate (better would be the exact flag text).
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Mar 1, 2019 at 20:18
  • 3
    If you're interested in a general policy discussion, then it might be good to focus the question more clearly on that. One way you might do that is to reorganize the question with the policy portions at the beginning, with very little intro-explanation about your declined flags (e.g. "this came up because some of my flags were declined"). You could then use the declined flags as specific examples near the end of the question.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Mar 1, 2019 at 20:19
  • 3
    @Makyen I'm looking for a general policy declaration that also covers/addresses the flags I cast. That's a fair point; I will add the specific flagged posts in and restructure the Q
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 1, 2019 at 20:30
  • The text after those links - is that the text that you entered into the custom flag, or a comment?
    – Wai Ha Lee
    Commented Mar 1, 2019 at 21:00
  • 1
    @WaiHaLee The text I added here is extra. You can see the text I entered into the custom flags by clicking the screenshot link I provided.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 1, 2019 at 21:01
  • 2
    If this wasn't a judgement call then we wouldn't need moderators. There is no need to box them in. Commented Mar 1, 2019 at 22:50
  • 2
    This reads more like a [bug] report on a specific moderator than an actual [discussion]. What are you hoping will be accomplished here? We don't actually need a policy on every little detail. The existing policy that useless answers which do not make the Internet a better place should be deleted is sufficiently clear. Flag what your conscience tells you is worth flagging. Recognize that moderators are human and may not agree with you or even each other when making judgments.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Mar 2, 2019 at 0:55
  • 21
    @Cody Gray: It's not fair to users when a single mod who disagrees with every other mod on a specific policy declines enough of their flags in one fell swoop to cause a flag ban (that cannot even be lifted manually). But, IMO, this is more of an issue with how flag bans work. I've never liked the implementation, in part because it doesn't account for users who don't flag often enough to ever be banned (or indeed, warned).
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 2, 2019 at 5:05
  • 8
    @CodyGray This was a policy action taken by a moderator, not a problem I encountered with some 'mechanical' aspect of the system or site. This is a case where at least five mods are on record as doing things one way, and yet when I flagged according to that way, my flags were declined. This event is particularly grating because it caused a flag ban. I'd like to know why they were declined, and also whether the mod team as a whole has discussed how to handle these flags. If the answer is "it's left up to the individual mod", that's valid... but should be posted as an answer, not as a comment.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 3, 2019 at 4:04
  • 3
    @HansPassant By that logic, we wouldn't have any policies for mods to adhere to at all. Asking why a mod flagged a certain way and whether there is a policy regarding this kind of thing is not at all 'boxing them in'.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 3, 2019 at 4:07
  • 2
    You're on slightly shaky ground flagging stuff like this, because ultimately it comes down to a judgement call about whether the duplicate answers add value. Sometimes what reads to you as a "duplicate" will be perceived by someone else as a clearer explanation than the previous answer. While I expect most mods would happily delete the most egregious cases, I tend to downvote and comment on these answers instead. My instinct is that these judgements - which are at least sometimes technical, idiosyncratic, and impossible to codify in a policy - belong in the hands of the community, not mods.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Mar 3, 2019 at 12:45
  • 4
    I'm not sure why we worry about "mod policy", there is no such thing according to me, moderators should follow "community policy", I think this question boils down what should be left to >20K to delete and when is answer sufficiently a plagiarism/copy of another answer to merit mod flags and immediate deletion. Commented Mar 3, 2019 at 14:37
  • 2
    Moderators ought to follow community consensus, yes, but there's a lot of daylight between that and guidance/policy on how to proceed with their job (making judgment calls/handling exceptions). Moderators have an extensive on-boarding process and have places like the mod-only chatroom to discuss how to handle various situations in an ongoing fashion; it is not just 'do what Meta tells you'. Even if it were, a Meta Q reviewing/inquiring about an action should be viewed as a good thing, as that will either affirm that things are going well or it will highlight an opportunity for improvement.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 3, 2019 at 19:40
  • 1
    duplicate? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/363118/… Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 11:13
  • 1
    wow, viewed 2,547,727 times Some mods probably forgot guidance provided by Jeff Atwood for cases like that: How aggressively should we maintain and improve very popular questions? As for your flags, you'd better refer 2 million views in flag message to help mods see the issue. In fact, at such high views question possibly even deserves dedicated meta discussion for cleanup - there are only 66 questions all time viewed that much
    – gnat
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 7:48

3 Answers 3

22

In general:

These kind of "canonical" posts are very valuable to the site, but always attract a lot of late crappy answers. Therefore, continuously moderating them should be made a high priority.

The problem with cleaning up "canonical" posts is that you most often need technical domain expertise in order to make the call of what to delete. I think diamond mods are probably not the most suitable for that, unless they do happen to be domain experts in that specific area.

I think the best solution here is not to flag, but to make a list of answers that are dupe candidates and then petition for domain experts on meta with 20k+ to go through the list. And in case of disagreement, they can voice it through answers on meta.

It would be great if we could establish a routine for maintaining/preserving canonical posts.

Related, it would be great if "protected" status blocked everyone below 2k rep from posting, instead of 100(?) rep like today. Surely it must be in SO's best interests to preserve high traffic, high quality posts.

7
  • 5
    protection protects users with less than 10 rep earned on the site (association bonus doesn't count). So it'll be 110 for new accounts with 100 bonus, 10 for new accounts. Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 11:02
  • 4
    2k is a bit steep, or we'd need 2 different levels of protection... Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 11:02
  • 4
    @Jean-FrançoisFabre The point is, the protect mechanism today is mostly some manner of anti-spam protection. It could have been an anti-crap protection too, if the amount of rep needed to answer was higher. Where to to place the rep bar is open for debate, but clearly it should be much higher than today. Today there's almost no canonical posts on the site without a tail of no value crap answers.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 11:35
  • 3
    I've seen crap answers by 1k+ rep users too. We have to fight this, but there's no miracle solution, specially for the already existing bad answers. For the new ones, there's "late answer" queue. Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 11:41
  • @Jean-FrançoisFabre Mostly it is because the post is old though, and they have gotten their rep long after posting. Yeah there's the occasional rep hunter posting late bad answers. But more often it's something like this: Student finds a curious post about "x problem" on SO. Student Googles "x problem" and finds an answer somewhere. Being a rookie at SO, student tries to answer the SO question as way of explaining to themselves what they just learnt. Then either misunderstands something or fails to add something not already mentioned in present answers.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 12:27
  • 7
    "it would be great if "protected" status blocked everyone below 2k rep from posting" - Yes to that. I was thinking about proposing something like that for a long time now. 10 rep is a joke. Though 2K is indeed a bit high. I think 500 rep should be enough- from my experience it will cover about 95% of the "Hoah! a high volume question, let's post all the crap!" users. Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 13:55
  • 1
    @DavidArenburg I think even 200 might be enough. There are some old questions where the highly upvoted answers are not that relevant anymore (think JS questions) Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 15:15
17

I didn't handle these flags, the mod who did is tired and I put my hand up.
Personally, I'd have marked some as helpful and I'm not sure if I'd have marked others as helpful.

The best way to address flags is to treat mods as literal thinkers.

I sure am.

  • If an answer is an exact duplicate, feel free to state that.
  • If an answer is a rough copy of another answer and adds nothing else to the original answer, state that. Don't state it's a duplicate, our brains look for copied content, not what is essentially an identical answer.
  • If an answer is an abbreviated version of another answer and adds no more information, say that. I have an auto comment I use when deleting such answers.

    This answer doesn't add anymore information that is already provided in the previous answers. Try not to duplicate content. See How do I write a good answer?.

Mods are human, can't you catch the nuances?

Well, you'd think so, but we're dealing with technical information and we're not domain experts in all things. We cover some areas, and with a lot of programming, can apply principles from one language to another. The real issue, though, is having to make critical decisions about the technical validity of a post. So if you are a domain expert, spell it out to us.

Personally, I've used powershell, but am no expert in it.

I hope this clarifies things a little. I fully support that we need to be consistent, so people know what to expect when flagging. We are not perfect and do drop the ball from time to time.

Going through each flag from latest to earliest:

  1. This is a duplicate of this and should have been deleted. I have deleted it.

    enter image description here

  2. This essentially adds no more information than the linked answer this and should have been deleted. The community and myself deleted it.

    enter image description here

  3. The same applies to This and this. It was deleted by the community.

    enter image description here

  4. This is a duplicate of this and should have been deleted. It was deleted by the community.

    enter image description here

  5. This isn't a clear duplicate of this and this is where these types of posts are line ball, they offer a slightly different context to say the same thing. The community has deleted it.

    enter image description here

  6. This is not an exact duplicate of this and is again one of those posts that mods have to make difficult calls on. It was deleted by the community.

    enter image description here

1
  • 6
    If I were to write an answer, it would be your post Yvette. While duplicate answers should be deleted, it is not entirely clear that the material in question here is an "exact duplicate"; if it were it would strongly indicate mod deletion. As you state, the community should be deleting material or voting accordingly when they are aware of the technical accuracy. I think this post is good guidance.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 19:45
7

Moderators can decide to delete but if they don't have the technical expertise, they could just decide not to delete.

In those cases, I just flag as VLQ and I add a comment linking to the copied answer for reviewers. A moderator could get to the review before a non-mod reviewer, and could decide to decline the flag, or skip and let experts decide. Normal users can delete the answer in the VLQ, so that's less flags to handle by the moderators. They're thanking you already.

With only 20 reviews per day on VLQ, non-moderators have more time to play the "7 mistakes game" with other answers.

Now, if the same user is copying/pasting other users answers, you can flag for moderation for repeated plagiarism.

I agree that canonical/historical Q&As should be protected (if not already done), and watched, but that's the purpose of the "late answers" queue (sometimes helped by the "first posts" queue). So a new answer on those popular questions cannot go undetected.

That said, a "late answers" reviewer would have to check other answers for duplicates, and not judge only the quality of this answer, but the number of existing answers can give a hint. When the question has already 30 answers, I open the link to check if the new answer hasn't already been proposed.

Another great help would be from a bot which could try to detect copy/paste, like the already existing ones which detect rude or nonsensical garbage posts.

Related: Newly registered users copy whole answers

7
  • 3
    I'm not sure VLQ is a great flag, the LQP queue looks for "not an answer", "link-only-answer" since over time the VLQ and NAA flag have pretty much been merge to same flag. In general I believe that we don't want the 2K queue to judge "answers". Too me it feels like either the answers are sufficient copy/plagiarized that you can raise a mod flag or you need to somehow find 20K users that are willing to review (meta or chat) Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 17:16
  • @PetterFriberg If you're knowledgeable enough to judge the content of an answer, where else would you handle copied/redundant answers that aren't necessarily verbatim copies? It is the "low quality posts" review queue allowing community moderation after all.
    – ohmu
    Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 19:54
  • 1
    @cpburnz meta.stackexchange.com/a/180029/320339, as you will see you should not recommend to delete "answers", cleaning up bad answers is a 20k task not a 2k LQP queue task Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 20:03
  • 1
    I should add that reviewer is not even expect to check for duplicate answers, since users are expected to raise custom mod flag on plagarism explaining the issue (as you may know you don't even see other answers in queue) Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 20:08
  • 2
    Infact this question is interesting since there is no good way (apart from meta and maybe chat) to clean up (get reviews from 20k users) these canonical questions. Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 20:13
  • 2
    "Moderators can decide to delete but if they don't have the technical expertise, they could just decide not to delete." Sure, so they could mark it as helpful and not delete the answers in that case... and likewise a given mod doesn't have to be the one to handle the flag, either. The declination and accompanying messages in this scenario indicate that flagging these answers was an actively wrong thing to do, not a case of the mod not being able to make a qualified decision.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 21:53
  • 1
    "In those cases, I just flag as VLQ and I add a comment linking to the copied answer for reviewers" None of these answers were flaggable as VLQ because they were too old. The VLQ flag option is only available for a short time after the answer is posted (something like a few days/weeks), and the score plays a part, too; you can't flag positively-scored answers as VLQ, either. Had they all been new answers, I definitely would've flagged as VLQ instead (and maybe even posted some [tag:del-pls] messages in SOCVR)
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 4, 2019 at 21:55

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