-43

Note: I refrain from deleting this question (which was ill-considered when asked) only because of the good answers given, especially the one by Nicol Bolas. My position evolved as I had to think it through based on the feedback provided, and eventually there was nothing left. I agree that immediate action on a bad post is the best.

I really, really wish that people hadn't viewed this as an attack on curation or on other users. I do hope that this experience reinforces the idea that not everyone reacts the same way to what you might think is a constructive action.


I was recently watching the progress of a Stack Overflow question about some problem C++ code.

This was a user with 95 reputation. Although the question had obvious problems, OP was engaging with people in the comments and responding to requests.

Nevertheless, within 9 minutes, the question went to -4 and was put on hold. The nature of the question was obvious and it could have been edited to work. But because of the rapid negative feedback, the user deleted the question.

The new Code of Conduct, at least in spirit, is about more than just nasty comments.

The problem isn't the necessary curation that goes on, it's the unnecessarily fast rate at which it happens.

Let's be clear. I do not object to downvotes and close votes; in fact, I use them all the time. Immediate close votes often give inexperienced users the very space they need to fix their questions.

But the problem may arise from the sheer volume of activity on SO versus other SE sites. I don't think everyone is aware of the cumulative effect of dozens of people giving feedback at the same time -- inexperienced users can feel like they've been thrown into a buzz-saw.

On other SE sites with a lower level of activity, it can take more than 9 minutes for the first substantive comment to show up! Even when there is an immediate VTC policy for some questions, there is a human time span to read the comment and respond to it. Or maybe just read your own post and fix it.

If you see a problem post on SO, there's a good chance that someone else is working on the problem already. So reading the comments (and taking the timestamps into consideration) is a good start. If it's already got negative rep, is another downvote going to make the asker work harder? Or are they just going to cut their losses?

So if you're going to engage in what you consider "quality control", at least think before you act. Take the time to read the comments and see if OP is trying to address the problems. If you see OP responding to comments, back off.

And even if you don't, count to 10.

25
  • 29
    Downvotes and close votes have absolutely nothing to do with being mean, hostile, elitest, or any other negative connotation. They are curation. Nothing more. Once a user clicks the, "Post question" button, it is subject to curation.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:27
  • 5
    question image for people <10k
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:28
  • 5
  • 8
    There seems to be plenty of comments there that suggests its not a case of itchy fingers. Why do you think voters didnt read the post?
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:31
  • 5
    screenshot of 1st revision
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:33
  • 12
    If we need to take a minute before voting, users need to take a minute before asking. Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:35
  • 5
    Considering you see downvotes and closure as hostile, yeah, it is. It means your expectations are misaligned versus how the site actually works.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:46
  • 3
    @Spencer Then correct your question and comments so you aren't indicating views about close votes and downvotes that you don't in fact have.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:53
  • 6
    I disagree with the part of your post about the code of conduct. When I read the COC, it seems mainly focused on nasty comments. It does not mention voting at all, and the main reason it exists now is that SO wanted specific expectations in writing so people wouldn't have to interpret the spirit of Be Nice, so if they had wanted it to be about voting, I think they would have said something about voting. Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:16
  • 3
    Viewpoints like this are also one of the reasons I don't like online communities that have no proper downvote feature. Users get used to saying whatever they want without receiving any negative consequences (you're either "ignored" or upvoted). Then when they come to a place where downvotes actually affect their score they get angry. Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:28
  • 22
    I do object to inexperienced users being thrown into a buzz-saw. What, exactly, is this doing but characterizing downvotes and close votes as hostile?
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:28
  • 2
    @Patrice that's something I don't get about complaints of lots of downvotes. Asking people to stop downvoting if the post is already at a certain score because it might make the OP feel unwelcome is the very definition of voting on the user, not the post (or I guess not voting). Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:46
  • 4
    @TheWanderer 100% with you. It, again, stems from "downvotes are mean". As long as people think that, we won't get out of this mess...
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:47
  • 2
    "close votes [...] I use them all the time" This does not appear to be possible, since you are well under the rep requirement. Unless you mean flagging.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:04
  • 4
    Ah, I suppose. Every day I become a little more convinced we need to formally separate SO from the rest of the network.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:17

3 Answers 3

19

The problem is that it all happened in too short a time span.

OK, so the issue is not with any particular activity per-se. Instead, the problem is that all of these things happened too quickly.

The purpose of closing a question is to prevent users from answering broken/bad questions. If the question is broken (missing information, etc), then answers to it are nothing more than guesses, and we don't want that. The sooner the question gets closed, the less likelihood that someone will come along and post guesses. This is precisely why dupe-hammering exists: to allow quick closures on dupes so that there is less of a chance for them to attract answers.

Now, you've effectively said that, in this case, the OP was doing their due diligence and thus should have been accorded more of an opportunity to repair their question. However, in the 9 minutes it took to close the question, the OP managed to make 4 separate edits. And even with that, still failed to achieve a proper MCVE.

Closure is not permanent. It can be undone once the post has been corrected. You might say that it is very rare for closure to be undone, but that's really not true. Edits do help get a question opened; it happens a fair amount of the time.

But there is another point to be made: responsibility.

Your overall post puts the responsibility of the closure on the users of the site. And yet... that's not really who is at fault here. The principle person in the chain of responsibility is the OP, the person who posted a poor, close-worthy question to begin with.

It is the responsibility of every poster on this site to follow our rules and community standards on quality. Nobody gets a pass on this, not long-established users nor new ones. If a question is validly closed (and nowhere have you claimed that the closure itself was invalid), then the fault of that is not on the community who closed it, but on the person who posted a question that merited closure.

You say that the community should "back off" if they see a user who seems to be trying to fix something instead of properly closing the question. Since close voting exists to enforce our quality standards, you are essentially saying that we should subordinate our quality standards based on whether we feel that a user is trying to fix their question, but simply hasn't yet. Under this notion, in order for us to properly enforce our standards, we would need to check back after a time to see if the question was repaired.

That's a pretty substantial time investment, and I cannot agree that our community should invest that time in such questions. There are plenty of questions that are well-formed and reasonably researched which users could be answering. So why should those users invest any more time in a question that should not have been asked in the form in which it was asked?

And again, we do allow questions to be reopened. We have an entire review queue dedicated to reviewing such questions. We do dedicate time towards that end. We have taken up that responsibility. Why should we take on even more responsibilities towards such questions?

I cannot agree with your suggestion. We must always act on the basis of what is certainly in front of is, not on the basis of what might happen in the future or what we think is happening. If the question as it stands merits closure for cause, then close it for that cause. If the question as it stands merits downvoting, then feel free to downvote.

And speaking of which:

If it's already got negative rep, is another downvote going to make the asker work harder? Or are they just going to cut their losses?

This is where we have to talk about perspectives.

Voting is not meant for the user being voted on; it exists as an indication of quality of the post for someone who is about to read it. As such, making "the asker work harder" is not and never has been the goal of voting.

That having been said, as much as we don't want people to do so, people do take votes personally. That's not the point of the thing, but that is still a thing people do. And it should not be ignored.

So the question is what matters more: the fact that some people take votes personally, or the ability for users to be able to access the quality of a post? Or more to the point, what matters more: voting for the content of the post, or trying to make sure the post has the "right" score?

See, once you start down the path of voting based in part on score (which is what you're asking for: to not downvote a post if it is downvotable yet already in negative numbers), you legitimize that behavior. And if it's legitimate for holding back a downvote, why would it not be legitimate to vote in order to "counter" downvotes you see as being improper, or to upvote a post because it's at 0?

Pity upvotes are a real thing, and they corrupt the meaning of votes. We shouldn't encourage the same kind of thinking.

And yes, that has consequences. Some people will think we're harsh and cruel. And maybe they're right to feel that way. We should not make this decision blindly, ignoring how our actions will be perceived. But neither should we allow perception to stop us from doing what is best for our site.


I do object to inexperienced users being thrown into a buzz-saw -- this is a result of the sheer volume of activity on SO versus other SE sites, and people need to be aware of it.

Here's the issue: which part of the response to this question constituted "users being thrown into a buzz-saw"? Because until you make it clear which part of the response was the bad part, we cannot have an effective, productive dialog.

There are 3 independent sets of user responses to this question:

  1. Downvotes. Are you saying that the post should not have received 7 downvotes? Are you saying that if the user is engaged with commenters, that users should wait before downvoting?

  2. Close votes. The question was closed after 9 minutes. The OP edited the post four times before it got closed. But the OP never managed to make it a good question. Are you saying that we should have given the OP more opportunities to fix the question? How long should we wait before the question gets closed?

  3. Comments. The question accrued 9 comments, one of which was from the OP saying that he felt that he'd fixed the question.

    Now when it comes to this, I would agree that the multiple restatements of "post an MCVE" were probably unnecessary, but even some of them were defensible. They were likely posted as responses to edits, informing the OP that the edit wasn't enough. How exactly is that a bad thing?

So I ask you: what do you think should have happened to this question? What behavior exactly are you objecting to? Are you objecting to the downvoting of a question that is currently bad but may be in the process of being fixed? Are you objecting to the close voting of a question that is currently missing crucial information but may be in the process of being fixed? Are you objecting to comments requesting more information?

You said that people should "think before they act". Well, we did that. We looked at the question and thought, "that's a bad question", so we downvoted it. We looked at the question and thought, "there's no MCVE", so we close voted it. We look at the question and thought "the OP edited it, but it's still not an MCVE", so we posted comments letting them know that they question still has problems.

You don't want us to "think before we act"; you want us to "think differently". OK, so exactly how should we think differently? What should our thought processes entail?

Until you provide this information as specific, actionable recommendations, you're not going to get much traction here. Remember: one of the major improvements of the CoC compared to the "Be Nice" policy was that it provided specific examples of good/bad behavior. That makes the CoC a lot less subject to interpretation and personal whims.

2
  • Well, I've added some more stuff to the original post. I hope that helps.
    – Spencer
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 19:10
  • @Spencer: I've updated my answer accordingly. Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 20:30
16

This was a user with 95 reputation. Although the question had obvious problems, OP was engaging with people in the comments and responding to requests.

Good so far, that still means the question should be closed until it is fixed however.

Nevertheless, within 9 minutes, the question went to -4 and was put on hold. The nature of the question was obvious and it could have been edited to work.

Right, closing the question is a part of that process. By preventing premature answers, and by being eligible for reopening, the question can then be properly edited into shape.

But because of the rapid negative feedback, the user deleted the question.

This is where it all went wrong. Negative feedback is inevitable when asking a poor question. All the niceness in the world will not make an unuseful question (which is part of what downvotes indicate) useful.

So if you're going to engage in what you consider "quality control", at least take the time to read the comments and see if OP is trying to address the problems.

All the actions you described (closing, downvoting) are reversible and by design so. Part of the quality control process is signaling to the OP (and others who can help) that a question needs help. Closing is part of that process as is categorizing via votes.

Generally speaking, it is the prerogative of the user to ask a helpful, complete and answerable question right when posting it. Of course, that doesn't always work out. In that case, some negative feedback is inevitable. But negative feedback isn't bad in and of itself, as long as it remains constructive. Close reasons and the downvote description are desinged to be as constructive as possible.

9
  • You've given the stock answer to this issue, which misses the point. The point is that while negative feedback is OK, a torrent of it isn't.
    – Spencer
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:41
  • 15
    @Spencer So who is and is not allowed to give negative feedback? Why should certain people not be allowed to give feedback just because other people have? Why is a torrent of positive feedback so useful, if you think only a small number of people should be allowed to give negative feedback?
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 15:50
  • @Servy Again, it's not an either/or proposition, it's about tact, situational awareness, and judgement. Especially for inexperienced users. Leave them space.
    – Spencer
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:39
  • 2
    @Spencer short of us coordinating on EVERY question, how do I know what others are doing/voting? If I see a -2 post and go "hmmm, not worth -3 now, let's be nice to the user", but then that same post sees 2 pity upvotes... it's at 0, instead of -1 had I voted as I saw fit. Community moderation, which is a big concept for us, implies that there is a good chance there will be a LOT of feedback. Either way.
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:45
  • @Patrice You could read the comments, look at the time stamps, and think "Hey, someone else is handling this in the same way I would."
    – Spencer
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:53
  • 6
    @Spencer Providing feedback on problems with a post is helpful. It is not representing a lack of tact, situational awareness, or judgement. It doesn't matter who the user is. Refusing to give people feedback on the quality of their posts is harmful. It's even more harmful for someone who is not familiar with the standards of how to ask a good question; they need feedback to even know that they need to fix anything. If you don't want to know when you do something wrong then do go to a site that has high standards of quality for posts.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:55
  • @Spencer Ok.... but I am talking about voting here, not commenting at all. I try not to repeat comments (or delete them if I fail to do so, or get in a weird timing issue). But I don't see how you can make the same argument to downvotes.
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:55
  • 1
    @Servy: "Why is a torrent of positive feedback so useful, if you think only a small number of people should be allowed to give negative feedback?" Um, the reason for that is kind of obvious: you don't need to respond to positive feedback, whereas negative feedback generally suggests that something needs to be fixed. If the OP is trying to provide an MCVE because someone has already asked them for one, what good does it do to add your voice to again ask for what the OP was already asked to provide? Votes are a different matter, of course. Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 17:55
  • @NicolBolas And this whole post is about votes, not comments requesting information already requested earlier, so it seems your point is entirely off topic here. No one has said that comments requesting the same additional information were helpful.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:03
8

Let's take this in parts.

This was a user with 95 reputation. Although the question had obvious problems, OP was engaging with people in the comments and responding to requests.

Good! This is what users should be doing. They've made a good faith effort to ask the best question they can, but they've run into problems somewhere. People asking for clarification can then help the asker provide additional information in a very timely manner. Sticking around after asking shows good investment.

Nevertheless, within 9 minutes, the question went to -4 and was put on hold. The nature of the question was obvious and it could have been edited to work. But because of the rapid negative feedback, the user deleted the question.

Yeah, because votes happen on the post as it stands. Not how it might be, not how it could be, but how it is. There's never any guarantee that a question will get better, nor do we expect anyone but the asker to actually fix it. When voting, you vote on the post alone. Not the comments, not the related posts, just what you see in the post section. I don't know why the poster deleted it, and neither do you.

The new Code of Conduct, at least in spirit, is about more than just nasty comments.

Not really. It just means we should be commenting less. But curation, like downvotes and closing, should still happen. With less comments, the (un?)intended side effect is it happens more often, and quicker.

The problem isn't the necessary curation that goes on, it's the unnecessarily fast rate at which it happens.

So if you're going to engage in what you consider "quality control", at least think before you act. Take the time to read the comments and see if OP is trying to address the problems. If you see OP responding to comments, back off.

No. Vote on the post as it stands. Nothing else matters.

And even if you don't, count to 10.

I only have so much time, and this post wants to waste more of it? Nah.

Let's be clear. I do not object to downvotes and close votes; in fact, I use them all the time. I do object to inexperienced users being thrown into a buzz-saw.

User experience is irrelevant. All that matters is post quality. Curation isn't a buzzsaw; it's curation. When building a castle, if a contractor provides substandard materials, you don't use them so you don't hurt their feelings. You reject it because it doesn't meet the quality standards. Using it just means the castle will eventually fall down, and now you hope there's nobody under the part that just broke.


We're not here to help every asker. We're here to build a lasting repository of high quality knowledge, that helps readers far into the future. Curation is an integral part of that process. Rejecting low quality now saves untold amounts of time in the future.

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  • I agree that immediate VTC on a bad question as it stands is very often a VERY GOOD idea.
    – Spencer
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:55
  • 6
    @Spencer Then why did you say that people should stop doing that in your question, and why is your question and comments filled with personal attacks and insults at people doing that?
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 16:58
  • 5
    @Spencer We keep asking how we're mischaracterizing it, and you just dodge or ignore the question. Either answer it, or don't, but continually saying we're reading it wrong with telling us how is a pretty bad faith argument. Until you elaborate on that, I stand by my assessment. If you want to debate in good faith, then debate in good faith. Adding sideways character attacks does nothing to actually help your argument, either.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 17:10
  • 1
    @Spencer: The problem is "think before you act" tells us nothing about what we're supposed to think about. How do you know we didn't "think before you act"? How do you know that any of the responses to the post were thoughtless or unaware of the situation or context? You seem to want some behavioural change, but you're unwilling to actually say what it is. The post got 7 downvotes, 5 close votes, and a bunch of comments; which part of any of that was wrong? Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 17:30
  • 4
    @Spencer Considering that that perception is the key point to your argument, it requires proper explanation. Your deliberate attempts to sidestep that explanation doesn't sidestep the escalation; it just refuses to move the discussion forward. Couple that with the comment on how your characterization of voters is, "unthinking", or, "a violation of the code of conduct", and taken altogether, it's an attack on the entire curation process. So clearing up that aspect can only help you.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 17:31
  • 1
    @Spencer: You want us to change our behavior, but you won't say exactly how. And you won't say that because you want to "avoid the endless back-and-forth and escalation". But because you won't say how we should change our behavior, we're left with no actual substance to your post; it's merely a complaint about people doing something wrong without any idea of what the wrong thing was or what the right thing would have looked like. Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:00
  • 2
    @Spencer Easy. Tell us why you think curation activities are hostile. You have mentioned we're throwing users into a buzzsaw. That's a hostile and negative perception. Explain why you think that is, and we might be able to move forward. You're equating curation with negative actions, and that requires explanation.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:01
  • 1
    There we go with the negative comparisons, again....
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:03
  • 1
    @Spencer what piece on that question was "too much" and should be prevented? the 7 downvotes? The comments? CVs? the whole thing? The issue people have here is that you are complaining about the reception of this question in general. But then when we deep dive, it seems like there's nothing concrete: you just wanted that question to not have been moderated that way. Ok.... How do you think effective moderation in this situation should have happened? We're trying to reach a consensus, but we don't know what you think is a correct moderation here, so it makes coming to a consensus.... hard
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:12
  • 1
    @Spencer No, all you've done is continue to propagate the argument without clarifying. At this point, I don't think you're actually trying to participate in good faith, so I'm done.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:15
  • 1
    @Spencer AH. Ok then, that's something we can discuss, thx for clarifying that. However, I don't think talking about how long it took is really relevant. IMHO (and from what I gathered over time, it seems to be shared with a lot of the meta regulars), moderation should happen ASAP. The faster it happens, the clearer the signal to the OP, and the less time we have a bad question left open that others can then point to and go "BUT YOU ACCEPTED THIS, NOW ACCEPT MINE TOO".
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:16
  • 1
    @Spencer Do you think that's what people focused on in your original post, with the way it was written? This is unfortunate, but the climate on meta means that if you don't thread carefully, people jump up in flames over the wrong things, because they are part of your question. If your issue was JUST time, why talk about the CoC? Why throw random "people don't read, just like in Usenet"? I am not saying that it is EASY to do, but if you want your question to stand a chance, be objective, clear, and don't devolve in passive/agressiveness or anything "ranty". It won't go well on Meta...
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 18:58
  • 1
    @Spencer Rather than just telling me that that's all in the OP, provide the quotes. What does the original post say that says which actions should be deleted, and by how much, and why it would be helpful for them to not get the feedback on the quality of their post until [some period of time you haven't described how long it should be] later. Your post says that you want feedback to be later, not what, not how much. You say that you think waiting would be useful, and talk about how horrible, mean and cruel people are for not waiting, but you don't say why waiting is helpful.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 19:11
  • 4
    @Spencer You have no basis for assuming that people haven't read the comments before voting. Nor have you provided any reason for why they'd need to. (You'd want to make sure, before posting a comment, that others haven't already covered what you want to say, naturally.) Saying you want people to "think about how fast things are" doesn't mean much. Plenty of us think about how fast curation happens a lot and we regularly feel it's too slow. If you think it should be slower, you need to both explain specifically how it should be slower, and why it would be helpful. You haven't.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 19:29
  • 2
    @Spencer I wish I could have made you answer the very direct questions asked of you, instead of having you only accuse people of not reading your comments when you haven't actually answered the questions asked of you. Updating your question to again accuse people of not reading what you say, and refusing to answer the questions asked of you, is not helpful, and isn't going to "make people see what you saw".
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 21:10

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