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I happened to notice the new blog article "State of the Stack 2019": https://stackoverflow.blog/2019/01/18/state-of-the-stack-2019-a-year-in-review

It seems the "Powers that be" are still of the opinion that "women, people of color" and other, undefined groups are still being discriminated against. I have yet to see a clear statement as to how this can be shown, given that no such information is available in a question or answer, nor in a user profile unless the individual chooses to mention it. So frustrating...

Of even more concern to me is the statement:

Stack Overflow exists to help everyone who codes learn and share their knowledge.

That begs the question: what is the definition of "everyone who codes"?

Does it include those who copy code from somewhere, with no understanding of what the code does? Then expect others to modify it to fit their special needs?

Does it mean this is now "officially" become a tutorial site and/or free code writing service?

Where do we draw the line?

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  • 14
    Linking again to this answer. The way our community treats new users regardless of their background makes the already marginalized groups feel even less safe about trying to interact with our community.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 12:43
  • 6
    They're just partly repeating what's already said in the previous blog, that was expected, since you can't skip over that when reviewing the past year and their position hasn't officially changed. I interpret the Stack Overflow exists to help everyone who codes learn and share their knowledge statement as only reaffirming that we don't discriminate, the tour still says we're for professional and enthusiast programmers. As long as that doesn't change, I don't think we need to worry.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 12:55
  • 22
    I suggest just ignoring it. It's a U.S. company's point of view on certain problems in U.S. culture. Not that those problems don't exist elsewhere, but after all these years they still fail to realise that different countries/cultures means different (forms of) problems.
    – user247702
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 12:59
  • 20
    The blog post is, to me, obviously just reusing wording from a post earlier this year. We don’t need to reopen the can here or reignite the same discussion. Everything the community could say has already been said and all you are doing is venting frustration that the people who wrote that l post have not been sensitive enough to your frustration with those words. I think we need to let this go and just continue on the path we have already chosen: to weed out the types of comments that BoltClock refers to and communicate constructively when posts are off topic or otherwise low quality.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 13:17
  • 37
    I'm not a sexist or a racist, and even if I was, I don't know the sex or the race of other users on Stack Overflow so it would be impossible for me to discriminate against them. The whole claim is rediculous. Enough said.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 14:51
  • 8
    @MartijnPieters I disagree with the dupe closure. The thing last year was a independant discussion, this is specificly as it relates to the blog post. I won't gold badge reopen it (I think I can't), but I still disagree with the closure.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 14:55
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    Also using duplicate close voting (especially mod close voting) to express "we should just get over it" is problematic at best.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 15:01
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    @BoltClock I don't see anything in the link you post that is related to what you state in your comment. FWIW I belong to one of those listed gropus and I have never felt "unsafe" anywhere in any group I've frequented on the Internet; Stack Overflow is IMO a very nice, safe place compared to some. I perceive no marginalization here; not personally nor do I see it applied to anyone else. I feel more threatened, to be honest, by such blog posts where those in charge appear to let themselves be railroaded by emotional outbursts and the current wave of "policial correctness"... Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 15:12
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    @DavyM: "I don't know the sex or the race of other users on Stack Overflow so it would be impossible for me to discriminate against them." Nonsense. You don't have to know what race/sex/gender/etc someone is to be able to discriminate against people of that class. Using insulting language about people from a particular class discriminates against such people, even if you don't know if a specific person is of that group. That's not an accusation; I'm just saying that this notion that anonymity somehow creates a non-disciminatory zone is just wrong. Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 15:37
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    @JeremyBanks I sort of think you might be right, but as mentioned above, the tour still says professional and enthusiast programmers yet the content of these blog posts conveys a conflicting message. It'd be nice if we could get a consistent and honest answer to call a spade a spade. Pick one, because it can't be both.
    – Nate
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 16:07
  • 28
    @MartijnPieters "We don’t need to reopen the can here or reignite the same discussion." I've often felt the same way during the course of the past year. On seeing basically the same content again, however, it's a concern that the PTB seem to have taken little (if anything) from those discussions that addresses the concerns of those who support the site. If we just ignore it, it's not going to go away. Saying nothing is tatamount to acquiescence - it could very likely give the impression that, if we're not complaining it must be alright / we've given up. Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 16:19
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    @CindyMeister It can also mean that those that have given up have moved on. Sure, the PTB don't have to listen to the community. But the community also doesn't have to continue maintaining the system if they feel their efforts are not valued. Tim's already saying the attrition rate is concerning; it's only going to get worse until the curators are properly acknowledged.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 16:24
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    In a mainly anonymous environment, the whole problem is non-existent.
    – peterh
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 16:40
  • 5
    @fbueckert That's part of my concern, yes. That would fall under "given up" - people have moved on to a different venue (and I hope to learn, eventually, where that is). Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 16:42
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    Personally, I likely wouldn't move on to another venue. I'm busy enough as is; I'd just focus on other interests. Some days, I wonder why I bother. Those days are getting more and more frequent.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:22

3 Answers 3

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There are two things coursing through my mind when I read this Meta post:

  1. I'm really tired of having to hash through this feeling of being cast aside as a curator. But, I think I know why.

  2. Follow the money.

First and foremost, we've talked about this whole "unwelcoming" thing ad nauseam and anymore I'm a little tired of talking about it. Culling comments which are worthless is probably the fastest way to deal with this problem, and empowering us to remove comments faster is a better solution than blog posts and opinions from ranking employees about how we're marginalizing people.

But then you take a moment and read this line in the blog post...

Stack Overflow exists to help everyone who codes learn and share their knowledge.

...and you kind of question it.

I plan to write some of my thoughts up in a blog later on this, but the long and short of it is, Stack Overflow needs to be this size in order for the paid initiatives to pay off.

Teams, Jobs and Careers couldn't exist if Stack Overflow weren't the monolith it is today, and Stack Overflow does have to make money to survive (and all of this talk about "curation" would just not matter). So, the best way to make this work is to increase the scope of the site a little bit more so more people can come to know it and see what it's offering at a corporate level.

Admittedly I'm speculating, but it does make some sense on some level. I'm just unclear what the tipping point will be between curators and the community team, who haven't exactly seen eye-to-eye in a long while...

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    "Teams, Jobs and Careers couldn't exist if Stack Overflow weren't the monolith it is today, and Stack Overflow does have to make money to survive" Indeed. The pros-only SO of yesteryear was funded entirely by Venture Capitalist seed money with the promise of profits down the road. That was great for us users but now the users are part of the product. Any time users are on that side of the equation, there will naturally be friction; some folks seem to want to have their cake and eat it, too, not thinking long-term about what a site like SO will become in order stay the way it is (namely, free).
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 18:27
  • 4
    @JeremyBanks Clearly the people running the business (with access to things like balance sheets) disagree that it would be enough. And honestly, it's their company... so if they want to expand and do more things to serve more people, that's their prerogative. Just keep in mind when VCs contribute to a startup or other company, they expect two things: ROI and growth. If you disagree with the way the company is run, buy enough stock to create a controlling interest on the board. Or create an SO competitor and steal away all the users from here with a better site and business model.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 19:34
  • 10
    I would personally rather see that they finance the site with advertising, than by dropping the quality bar of the site content. Which already happened some 4 years ago. Now we allow everyone & their mother to post useless, zero-effort questions answered by reading chapter 1 of the beginner-level book. I'm far less bothered by some advertising on a side bar, than of floods of crap questions destroying the core of the site.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 9:27
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    @Lundin have you disabled your adblocker for SO?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 13:08
  • @Braiam stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/reduced-ads
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 13:29
  • @Lundin meta.stackoverflow.com/q/335956/792066
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 13:57
  • @TylerH Related to this, I wonder what the site would be like if it had gone the nonprofit direction like the Wikimedia Foundation. Sure, getting started would have probably been more difficult, and funding would initially rely on ads (and continually, unless donations eventually became sustainable), but It seems it could have followed the community consensus better. Even with my inexperience (I've only been aware of SO for 3 years), it seems that many high rep users in the community feel the welcoming crusade and the broader actions during the last few years are solving the wrong problem.
    – Graham
    Commented Jan 26, 2019 at 2:51
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That begs the question: what is the definition of "everyone who codes"?

The definition is quite clear, as long as you don't nitpick about "writing code" versus "copying and pasting code". In doubt, the company has to turn the community into a product, and there's hardly something that is easier to measure than the number of users. Stir some social justice in there, and you end up with the blog posts and discussions that we already had.

Does it include those who copy code from somewhere, with no understanding of what the code does? Then expect others to modify it to fit their special needs?

That's already happening, and seems to be an inevitable side-effect of the incentive system: Even the crappiest question will receive an answer that will be upvoted and accepted, and we all love upvotes. There is a feedback loop of bad questions that are rewarded with an answer and the answer that is rewarded with an upvote/accept. The question and answer are then somewhat "justifying" or "validating" each other.

More broadly speaking, this decay can only be controlled by the part of the community that is concerned with the quality of the site. And admittedly, I'm occasionally tempted to do something that I still criticized a few years ago: Downvote answers to (really) bad questions, even if the answer is technically valid and helpful. It might be the only way to break this cycle. This leads to the next point:

Does it mean this is now "officially" become a tutorial site and/or free code writing service?

When someone posts a homework assignment as a crappy question, there are different options:

  1. You can completely ignore it
  2. You can answer it, as a code writing service
  3. You can write a comment saying: "This site is not a code writing service!", downvote, and move along
  4. You can downvote, and move along

Where do we draw the line?

Taking a step back, I'd like to quote Hanlon's Razor *

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

People are not intentionally writing bad questions. And people are not intentionally establishing questionable policies. That does not mean that one should naïvely assume "good intent"! But at best, people who are posting bad questions are just stupid or lazy, and people who trying to "improve" the site by incentivizing or legitimating this are just wasting some of their (and other peoples) time. Downvoting bad questions and ignoring certain parts of blog posts seem to be a viable solution (at least for me), as long as there is no profound technical evidence that certain changes to the site have any influence on the overall quality (or "welcomingness") of the site whatsoever.


* Obviously in no way related to Jay Hanlon, the author of the original "Welcoming" Blog Post

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    Y'know, I downvoted this, at first, out of reflexive irritation your steps 3 and 4. I got most of the way through writing a comment saying that, while I also dislike the social justice nonsense, hyperbole does us no favours and the staff have at no point advocated treating posts differently based on the race or gender of their author. And then I remembered what happened to Interpersonal Stack Exchange.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 12:05
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    The presence of steps 3 and 4 is indeed a sign of the potentially PC-fueled priorities suggested by the welcoming bandwagon. Anyone on the site can feel unwelcome one way or another. We know it because they tell us. However, the company keeps on building a strong focus on defending new contributors and underrepresented groups, rather than just thinking of ways to pull all kinds of users out of the victim triangle. I don't endorse steps 3 and 4, but it sure feels like the PTB want us to follow them.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 12:48
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    @TylerH The edit removes the most important option: You can downvote and move along. I already anticipated that people might see the difference of 3 and 4 critically, but there was a message in there. And the message was not "rude". Everybody got along pretty well here. People who asked crappy questions received snarky comments (and rightfully so). Then someone wrote a whiny blog post, and suddenly, there was s sexist+racist issue, made out of thin air. This caused the urge to treat certain people differently, which is, in fact, the definition of discrimination. That's appalling.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 15:18
  • @TylerH I've no strong views about whether the suggestion that you should decide whether to vote based upon the poster's sex and race should remain (nor am I certain whether it's meant sincerely or trollishly), but since you've removed much more than just that in your edit, I've rolled back. If you were to edit again with a finer touch that doesn't entirely remove the suggestion of taking moderation actions like downvoting and commenting against bad posts, then I'd leave it alone.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 15:21
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    @MarkAmery You got the main point, namely that the downvoting part should remain, at least. Beyond that, the difference between 3 and 4 only refers to ""unwelcoming"" comments. I wouldn't start an edit-war with someone who'd like to merge 3+4. If someone feels ""offended"" by the sarcasm in 3+4, then this is rather a symptom of a deeper, underlying problem, and admittedly, I'm a bit tired of interfering with that.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 15:26
  • @MarkAmery I removed it because it was meant trollishly (hence the "sorry; could not resist" tagline below it). Fair point about the actual objective options; edited to keep those this time and remove the trolling only.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 15:28
  • 2
    @TylerH The (scnr) doesn't mean that it was trolling - at least not in the sense of pure provocation. I'd like to encourage people to think about the whole Welcoming-issue, with the appropriate scrutiny. The point here is, roughly speaking, that "non-discriminatory behavior" here on SO exactly means that race+gender should not make any difference. (Whether it ever did make a difference remains to be proven, but the Welcoming-post skipped that and just started with this presupposition, which turned out to not be the brightest idea...)
    – Marco13
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 15:34
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    @Marco13 FWIW, it was unclear to me whether it was intended as sarcasm. I wouldn't treat posters differently based upon their race/gender, but I wouldn't much blame someone who did in the aftermath of the IPS debacle. If I were to give any negative feedback to a visibly female user these days, at the back of my mind I'd fear it would end up screenshotted on Twitter, that the site staff would back up the narrative against me, and my career would be harmed. Not discriminating risks the wrath of the feminists, and I think others have the right not to take that risk, depressing though it is.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 15:36
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    @Marco13 FWIW it seems pretty trollish to me to say "sorry I could not resist making topically-relevant racially/socially insensitive jokes" (which is how I read those original lines, honestly). It may be a joke, but inside a serious discussion about cultural sensitivity is not really the appropriate place to satirize said serious discussion (if there is an appropriate place), especially in such a charged way, IMHO. Sorry if I offended you w/ the accusation of trolling... it's (as usual) a more complex situation than that.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 15:44
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    @TylerH No problem. I'm basically unoffendable. People who see these comments and are interested in that will look at the edit history anyhow, and can make up their own minds. (Wouldn't that be great?). Let's leave it at that.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 15:46
  • 2
    I don't entirely agree with the phrasing/sentiment, but I don't believe the edit was appropriate either.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 17:21
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    The one person who hasn't edited this post since the rollbacks started is the OP. Marco, edit the post to say what you want and let's all call it done. If you think it's trolling, vote how you want to vote. Removing part of the answer because you think it's trolling isn't really the right answer. Flag it or vote or comment. Getting in an edit war here is a distraction.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jan 22, 2019 at 19:33
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    I posted a comment to another answer here with a link to one of the worst "give me the codez" questions I've ever seen and the reply was: what's the point. What you write is exactly the point - and the situation worsened noticeably in the tags I cover during the past year. What's more, the others who help in these tags, in their attempts to conform to "welcoming" don't trust themselves to DV or VTC. Some (with substantial rep) even write "Welcome to Stack Overflow!" in their answers. When it's edited out they roll-back; when you ask they say "we have to do that, now".... Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 10:48
  • 2
    ...since these are low-traffic tags it's very difficult to clean out the dross. (Side-note: I went into the edits to see the original and could appreciate the humor!) Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 10:49
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    @PetterFriberg That's assuming there's no accepted answer, which is increasingly the case. FWIW when I posted that link the Q had been on the site for hours. It was edited to "tone it down" since I posted the link - by people who should know better, but, again, feel they're required to "be welcoming". Which is why it's becoming difficult for me to feel I can rely on roomba. Commented Jan 23, 2019 at 11:09
-6

This question seems to be more of an attempt at opening a can of worms than the blog post.

It seems the "Powers that be" are still of the opinion that "women, people of color" and other, undefined groups are still being discriminated against. I have yet to see a clear statement as to how this can be shown, given that no such information is available in a question or answer, nor in a user profile unless the individual chooses to mention it. So frustrating...

What the blog post says is that women, people of color, and other underrepresented groups too often don't feel welcome or like they have the same access to help. In general. It does not say "Stack Overflow users [still] discriminate against women and people of color." Seems to me like you are reading quite a pointed accusation where there is none at all.

That begs the question: what is the definition of "everyone who codes"?

Everyone who writes code. Seems straightforward enough to me. While this isn't verbatim what SO's mission statement has been ("professional and enthusiast coders"), it's pretty much the same thing; everyone who codes is likely in one of those two camps -- doing it because they enjoy it or because it's their job. I don't know anyone who codes as a hobby and doesn't enjoy it...

Does it include those who copy code from somewhere, with no understanding of what the code does? Then expect others to modify it to fit their special needs?

Does it mean this is now "officially" become a tutorial site and/or free code writing service?

Where do we draw the line?

I would like to draw the line in front of asking such loaded questions. You should not assume such ill intent of people, whether it's newbies asking questions, or people writing blog posts. Putting aside that articles for public consumption are written a certain way with certain language that is often entirely different from technical documents or legal documents (everything from the code of conduct to the site rules to the help center), the technical answer to your questions is:

Yes. It includes those people. Everyone should be able to come to SO and ask a question. But we still have rules and expectations.

However, just because SO is "for everyone who codes" doesn't mean we start accepting tutorial requests or broad "write the next 'Facebook-Killer' website for me" questions (or any of the myriad other questions that are off-topic). It's not a reasonable interpretation in my opinion to think that's the outcome or future of SO just because a blog post is written using inclusive terms.

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    You should not assume such ill intent of people, whether it's newbies asking questions, or people writing blog posts. Er. Have you seen the amount of no-effort homework questions we get? There's no assumption of ill intent; it's literally right there for curators to look at and have to deal with.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 16:52
  • 9
    glaring example of what we're dealing with, more and more: stackoverflow.com/questions/54294336/… Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:02
  • 3
    @Magisch "that have to code" If you "have" to code, it's for your job, no? For students, academic work or research is their "job".
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:33
  • 3
    @fbueckert Yes, I have seen the amount of no-effort questions we get, and I am a very prolific close voter of questions. That's also not what I'm referring to when I say assuming ill intent. People not knowing (even if it's not bothering to read the help center) our rules are not posting with ill intent... they are simply ignorant. Laziness is not malice. We should educate them and expect them to know the rules, yes, but we also should assume good faith. CIndy's question here jumps to the worst possible conclusions that aren't backed up by the blog post
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:39
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    I would disagree. I would say this is an extension of the actions SE has taken over the last few years. For someone who says we're supposed to assume good faith...I'm not seeing a whole lot coming from you about this question. You yourself are jumping to seeing ill-intent. As for those homework questions, there are so many that assume downvotes and closure are hostile, egotistical, elitest, etc., etc. No good faith going on there. But it's always the curators that have to continually, ad nauseum, assume good faith, because the poor new user just doesn't know any better.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:42
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    @TylerH just like, the blog post could have assumed good faith and the fact we are moderating content, not being discriminatory? This is a debacle, because each side keeps on asking of the other to use good faith, while being incapable of using it themselves.... it's a weird dichotomy to be honest. But overall, the main issue is that Stack has a goal: make money, which implies things like "get the most users to join and stay". And that doesn't work with the "heavy moderation" philosophy of Stack
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:44
  • 2
    @fbueckert Yes, that's how any social system works. There will always be people who don't assume good faith or put in a good effort. If everyone gives up and starts assuming everyone else is out to get them or score a quick buck then society fails, and this website is no different. If you want SO to be good, keep being a good contributor. Vote to close, comment, educate, etc. If you don't want SO to be good, stop doing that. As far as your whataboutism point, I'm just responding point by point to Cindy's question.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:45
  • 3
    And assuming the question was asked with ill intent. Meh. Yeah, we can assume good faith, but actions speak louder than words. SE has a lot to answer for if they want to regain the trust they've lost over the last year.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:46
  • 4
    @fbueckert When the post makes claims that weren't there, drums up controversy where there was none, and concludes with a bunch of loaded questions about how the company must be interested in the decline of its own product... yeah, actually, I honestly do view that as ill intent. But I'm responding in good faith by actually addressing each point, rather than simply voting to close as not seeking any real input from the community (an argument I think has quite a strong case). I agree SE can do a lot better by its contributors/vets. That has no bearing on how you act as an individual, though.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:51
  • 4
    @TylerH I don't see that emphasis on "that's how they were feeling, not how you guys were acting" in the blog post, and everything afterwards (except some messages from certain specific moderators) didn't make me feel like that the stance was anything but "curators are the problem". But again, that's just ironic, cause we have 2 sides that right now don't want to listen to the other. I don't see how anyone thinks we'll get out of this, unless one of those sides gives in a bit...
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 17:55
  • 8
    @TylerH because linking to "implicit bias tests", with a notice of "you don't think you're biased? Take this test. If you're like me, it'll hurt." doesn't imply there is at least a bit of the "isms" in the way the veterans act? That's surely the impression it left for a lot of people (me included). If the intent was always to just say "that's how our users feel, but we don't think the veterans are discriminatory", then why link to such tests? But in any case, that doesn't change much of where I was going. I am willing to take part of the blame, but the fact of the matter is that the two sides
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 18:06
  • 4
    @TylerH well considering that the sentence you quote up here is almost used verbatim in Hanlon's post, I feel like the two are hard to dissociate. The claim that we are discriminatory started there, and it seems like it's continuing now, without so much emphasis on "you are the problem", but the established post by Hanlon will make it so the discussion looks like it's always headed there. And for someone talking about good faith, you're quick to use snark(was your last sentence really needed? and phrased that way?). Anyway, I am leaving this convo now, don't think this'll result in anything
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 18:16
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    @TylerH The entire... "movement" has a name, and jay's blog post is part of said "movement," maybe even the basis of it. The blog post has not been removed, edited, or denounced by the staff any any way shape or form. Therefore i don't see it as much of a stretch to take the current blog post mentioning that movement as being something they're still progressing on as still pushing forward with the very lopsided opinions of the movement.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 18:28
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    @Kevin that same post is ALSO linked in the currently discussed blog post, but you know, we need to forget about it and never discuss it again, even if Stack uses this to continue justifying themselves...
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 18:29
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    @TylerH and the blog post accused of doing that is still up, unaltered, and still being linked. So I'm not sure why the distinction is useful. You admit yourself that no apology or retraction ever happened, so I'm unsure why you're arguing against its merit wrt to the discussion.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 21, 2019 at 19:41

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