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I found a question on main about a memory error which used almost perfect grammar and was completely clearly phrased, but it included a term along the lines of

one file has 5 lakh lines

It was quickly settled in comments that a lakh means 100 000 in Indian English which is evident from a quick google search.

Some time later (but with the explanation that "lakh" is a real word still visible in the comments) a user posted a comment along the lines of

Add 3 boobla memory to your computer.

As far as technical aspects go this comment is completely unhelpful, but socially speaking it's clearly mocking the asker for their use of Indian English. (Let's ignore now that the first google hit for "boobla" is horrible racial slur, this was probably not intentional.)

I flagged the comment as "harassment, bigotry or abuse", because mocking someone for their use of English (and valid use of Indian English) is exactly the kind of put-down that the whole welcome wagon is about. The comment didn't contain any actual technical help, so it was only posted to take a jab at the asker. The comment was soon deleted, but later I noticed that my flag was declined. As far as I know only mods can decline comment flags.

So I don't understand. If it was an appropriate comment, why did it get deleted? If it was inappropriate, why was my flag declined? Is it inappropriate, but only a little? Is some amount of non-constructive mockery allowed towards users? Did the moderator make a mistake or am I wrong?


Just a quick note on timings: the question was posted today at around 9 AM UTC, the comment was posted sometime after 10 AM UTC, I flagged it at 10:19 AM.

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  • 43
    I guess the moderator was unaware that lakh was valid Indian English, and that the user was just mocking a nonsense word instead of valid Indian English. That's still unkind in my opinion, but not harassment, bigotry or abuse. That flag is reserved for severe cases
    – Erik A
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 16:03
  • 12
    @ErikvonAsmuth I know what a lakh is. I didn't realise that the term referenced was a racial slur.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 16:11
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    @ChrisF as I said I don't think the racial slur is intended, I'd guess that the commenter intended to post gibberish but failed. Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 16:12
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    I've spent some time on the internet and have seen my share of pixels, but I've never heard of that UD definition. UD isn't exactly the OD. Note, boobla is the name of an ebay competitor. Maybe. It appears to be broked, anyhow.
    – user1228
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 18:26
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    I agree with the spirit of this post. However, there is some disagreement on whether it is reasonable for all English speakers to learn all localised units of measurement (e.g. lakhs and crores). I think it is probably helpful to let speakers of Indian English know that this might not be well understood outside of their territory.
    – halfer
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 22:14
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    Put another way, if a post uses terms that need to be "googled", then it needs clarification.
    – halfer
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 22:15
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    No, condescending comments are not permitted. Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 22:15
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    @halfer an edit or even a gentle suggestion to change that phrasing would've been fine. Mocking without actually helping anything (including clarification) would not. Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 22:16
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    I am an Indian, and I found that comment rather funny! People need to learn to take a joke sometime. Also Imagine if everyone started using nomenclature from their own language and other users having to google them to get the relevant meaning. In all fairness its a 'hindi' word, but it has been anglicised too. lakh -> lac. but still the most PC approach IMHO would be to just update/edit that to a number(maybe by a fellow user), instead of you know. Also lets cut some slack to the guy, He might not have intended to hurt OP's feels just might have tried to keep the discussion in a lighter vein. Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 22:21
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    While it's great you found it funny, and I admit there are comments on this site I find funny too, even if it hurts one person's feelings or makes them feel unwelcome, it's still bad.
    – Tas
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 22:30
  • 27
    @Tas Ok, let me get this straight,I'm all against rude behaviour would never justify that,but we need to draw the line somewhere of what is rather acceptable and what isn't,& this thing here IMHO didn't deserve all that outrage.The site is already so formal,Lets not make it any more bland,and keep the humour flowing.&Please don't even get me started on the "Indian English" part there is no such thing,Either its English or it isnt.(not referring to accent),cause if you tell me that is a thing,I swear to GOD I'mma start using "gooblieballs" everywhere cause it means good question In "my english" Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 22:46
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    OK, M leaving this discussion, One last thing, It was as simple as, OP had used an "unknown" unit and the comment-er provided solution in an equally unknown unit, I'm almost sure he didn't intend the racial slur thingy, it was just a bad coincidence. People are drawing a little too much of conclusions here. Case closed. :) Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 23:00
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    @Tas "even if it hurts one person's feelings or makes them feel unwelcome, it's still bad." That's a rather slippery slope, I think. Could anyone who disagrees with you not argue that your comment makes them feel unwelcome? Would that be reason to flag it as abuse? What about people who feel unwelcome because answerers refuse to do their homework for them? I'm not saying overt rudeness should be acceptable, but I do think there's a difference between rudeness and poor judgement, and how a case should be handled should depend on more than just whether it hurts one person's feelings. Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 23:07
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    @MohdAbdulMujib if only it were possible to stop oneself from posting rude comments without having to learn all of the dialects of English that exist..
    – Aaron F
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 15:26
  • 9
    I had never heard of anyone denying the existence of different dialects of English before now.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 17:35

6 Answers 6

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Flag handling aside...

Yes, this is rude.

It would have been rude before the Great Unwelcoming. (And the "Summer of Love" before that.) That is irrelevant.

It is rude whether or not the comment-maker, the flagger, or any readers were aware (I wasn't) that "boobla" has a particular insulting meaning.

It's trying to humiliate someone; it has absolutely no constructive purpose. It does not belong here.

The end.

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    Indeed. Also, Indian English is an official dialect of English, it's perfectly valid. It's a shame some people choose to mock others rather than take an opportunity to educate themselves. Something I don't expect to see on a site that's all about sharing knowledge :-(
    – Aaron F
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 18:33
  • 27
    Actually, that's another good point: the "Indian English" part is also irrelevant to whether this is rude or not.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 18:55
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    Except it's not "the end." Because categorizing it as abuse or not has consequences for the user's standing in the community.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 21:42
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    It's true, @jpmc26: I used the word "rude" and meant exactly that, whereas the question does ask about "abuse". There is a real gap between the two, and your answer makes a good point addressing the actual wording of the question.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 22:01
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    I now realize that I'm strongly biased by the old flag system, where we had "harmless but useless" (no longer needed, too chatty) vs. rude/abusive. In those days I didn't have to think twice when I saw someone being a jerk. And that's probably part of the reason why I categorize this as "abusive" language. This might just again show that we're all the worse off now that we have to measure hostile intentions on a precision scale. Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 22:23
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    Yeah, it does seem that there's piled far too much burden of precisely identifying, categorizing, and labelling in almost every aspect of moderation here. At least we still have nice simple up/down votes.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 22:27
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    My point is exactly that we have more options. We (almost) all agree here that the comment had to be deleted because it was rude. In the Old Days (an eon of a year ago) this would've been a clear-cut flag (rude/abusive) and no mod would've thought to weigh the category of the flag. Now in the Brave New Days we have to weigh the level of jerkness of a comment. Is it merely "unkind" (whatever that means), or is it rude? Actually, jpmc26's point is that it is rude, but it's not "harassment, bigotry or abuse". Is "rude" stronger than "unfriendly or unkind"? I might think so, others might not. Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 22:30
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    Gotcha, @AndrasDeak, somehow I got your intent backwards the first time I read the comment.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 22:30
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I handled the flag.

I didn't search for the term used because a) I'm at work and b) I thought that the comment was unkind, but didn't warrant the abuse flag.

I did, however, agree that the comment should be deleted.

I now see that that may have been a mistake.

If there could be any doubt about what you're flagging a custom flag is probably the best route rather than one of the standard flags.

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    Thanks. For what it's worth it crossed my mind that I might have used a custom flag instead–two seconds after I left the abusive one. Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 16:12
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    Hm, even under the impression that "lakh" was a nonsense word, I would disagree with the decline. A comment that has the sole purpose of humiliating someone for their lack of English skills should be harassment. It's not like this was snark mixed with some attempt to help or educate, but purely trolling OP.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 16:13
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    @ChrisF Okay, but that does not change my point. The comment was still posted with no intent other than mocking OP for their non-"western" English.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 16:17
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    @Andras I could also see someone who hadn't heard of "lakh" thinking the OP was trying to be funny and they were trying to be sarcastically humourous back. Text is difficult though - especially if you might be making up a stupid word in your response that turns out can mean something else... unless there's a lot more context it's a little difficult to assert it's definitely bigotry or abusive.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 16:19
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    @JonClements by the time the comment was posted there was the first comment asking what a lakh is, and the second comment (mine) explaining what it is. Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 16:29
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    @ChrisF Since I'm not currently clear on it from your answer, could you clarify: did you 1) like Andras, conclude that the comment was clearly meant to mock the asker for their dialect, but decide that such mockery wasn't sufficient to justify a harassment/bigotry/abuse flag, OR 2) think the intent of the comment was some specific other thing (in which case, what?) OR 3) not read any specific intent into the comment at all? As it stands, you suggest that your choice may have been a mistake, but it's not clearly what precisely the mistake was, and I think it'd be interesting to know.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 18:13
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    Is there a feature request here? it sounds bad that a useful flag gets declined due to the flag type being tied to some specific consequence to the user where you judge they should have the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the system should have a way to accept the user's flag as helpful, but let the mod choose whether to apply the consequence. Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 18:25
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    @NathanHughes There's a bigger issue here, and personally it's the reason I am careful about comment flag types: these are all recorded, and I'm 99% sure we're going to see stats per flag type in another "we need to be more welcoming" blog post. Thus, I find it very important that we're accurate in handling these flags. That's all aside from this specific case; I probably would have deleted the comment/marked the flag helpful.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2019 at 18:56
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    @Undo The flipside to that, of course, is that if you are "careful" about handling flag types then looking at the comments that attracted accepted "unkind" flags ceases to be a useful way of assessing the community's sense of what is unkind; instead, it mostly measures the judgement of the moderators.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 9:49
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    @MarkAmery Trust me, the community's sense of what is flag-worthy in any category is pretty terrible.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 13:44
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    @Undo Are you insulting the community?!?!1! [Immediately flags Undo's comment as containing harassment, bigotry, or abuse.]
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 13:45
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    Barring the specific word in question, you did the right thing. Don't change your mind.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 21:40
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    This is an awful lot of hand wringing over a single comment.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jan 18, 2019 at 15:22
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    @RobertHarvey in that case I count myself lucky that ChrisF handled my flag. I'm a bit surprised by your attitude because the kind of subtle put-downs the new CoC is trying to fight come exactly "a single comment" at a time. And since the whole welcoming baggage started it hasn't been trivial at all what the userbase considers acceptable and what it doesn't. We are a community, and frankly I'd expect a moderator to be more supportive of the community trying to figure out what's right and what's wrong (and welcome that for once people agree). Commented Jan 18, 2019 at 21:01
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    @Robert single comment or not what is interesting is to understand difference of "unfriendly" and "abusive" and even more important should a mod decline an abusive flag when they just think it's unfriendly? If so we better get a really good guidance related to this. Commented Jan 19, 2019 at 21:12
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In this case, in context, and on reflection, it would seem to be rude and inappropriate, yes.

But it takes a moment to be sure of that. Out of context the comment just uses a nonsense term and it's not immediately evident that it has been employed both deliberately and as a reference to what the author rudely misinterpreted as another nonsense term.

As such, I would have raised a custom flag on this explaining that, beyond reasonable doubt, this was a mickey-take of the OP's use of the term "lakh". I wouldn't expect a standard flag to have gained much traction here.

And I still think that as far as "abuse" goes this is very much on the lower end of the spectrum.

13

This answer is written, as the OP requested, without regard to whether the word in question is a vulgar racial slur. That fact changes the situation significantly, so my purpose here is only to address the more general question of whether mocking someone's language is "abuse."


  • Is mocking helpful? No.
  • Is mocking in good taste? No, not usually.
  • Is mocking allowed here? No.
  • Should the comment have been deleted according to site rules and/or community guidelines? Yes.
  • Is it rude? Probably somewhat. There are cases where people who are familiar with each other mock each other as a form of enjoyable banter, but it's likely not possible for the author to know that the person would be receptive.
  • But is it abuse? No, not unless done persistently over time.

Abuse, when used to describe the actions of a person, is a very strong word in the English language. The connotation is that severe harm has been done. A single distasteful joke does not meet that high standard. A reasonable person can be expected to roll their eyes or make a disgusted face and move on if they dislike it.

Are we going to be a community that categorizes every possible offense as "abuse"? Or are we going to be a little more reasonable? It's fine if we want to be a community that prides itself on respect, but that can't mean that we treat every offense as something severe that should be punished with extreme prejudice. A community like that is untenable.

For a comment that's inappropriate but not abusive, choose one of the other flag reasons. "It's unfriendly or unkind," is probably applicable and less severe. I've used "It's no longer needed," on comments I believed were only slightly over the line to much success and still think this is an appropriate use of it. And a custom flag will allow you to explain if you don't feel like it fits in any of the others.

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  • Thanks for ignoring the slur, I'm still certain that it's a red herring here. As for "abuse", you're probably right, I'm not completely clear on the exact subtleties of English around these terms. If it makes any difference I meant less "abuse" per se, more "abusive language". This might not make an actual difference. I'll have to think about your point regarding what constitutes abuse. Reasonable people can be expected to roll their eyes and move on from a lot of crap thrown at them on the internet. But there's only so much pushback one can take if they face it all the time. Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 21:48
  • @AndrasDeak I don't think there's any real difference between the notions of "abuse" and "abusive language." The latter came about as the concept of language and words over long periods of time (e.g., daily to your children) also having the capacity to cause damage. I would rather distinguish between abusive (blatantly extreme, insulting, and probably vulgar), rude (insulting but not extreme), and merely inappropriate (disrespectful but probably not intended to be harmful). I think most jokes like this would fall into the latter category.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 18, 2019 at 0:06
  • I like your answer bit I still doubt SE intention was for us to get perfect hit rate, they know well that for some it's abusive, for some unfriendly and for some just no longer need. I don't think they taught mods would decline an abusive flag because the mod just think it's unfriendly. Hence what ever flag Andras raised it should have been approved Commented Jan 19, 2019 at 21:17
  • @PetterFriberg No because labeling something as abusive has long term consequences for the user's standing.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 19, 2019 at 21:33
  • So it's better for the user to not be unfriendly since some users will judge it as abusive. We will never be able to establish the exact difference (as for other flags VLQ vs NAA). On some comments all flags will be more or less valid depending on culture/backround etc.if this has long term consequences for a single user, suspended but they where "Just unfriendly" they will have to discuss this with mods . Commented Jan 19, 2019 at 21:47
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    AFIK There is no automatic rep penalty nor automatic suspension (as for flags on question), hence mod before suspension will see all the comments flagged as they where written and I doubt that the actual flag is of great importance Commented Jan 19, 2019 at 21:51
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    @PetterFriberg Labeling things as more severe than they are to scare people and saying it's okay because people should always be perfect is dishonest and ultimately harmful. It's a tactic used by extremists. Do you not realize that this issue is couched in the larger cultural debate about speech rights? Labeling something as "abusive" or "hate speech" is just a tactic used to justify control.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 19, 2019 at 23:44
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This is just my take, so feel free to disagree!

The problem with discussions surrounding flags is that there is often lack of context.

You are making an assumption that the commenters mocking is only related to the language of the OP. While the commenter is mocking the OP, based on what you provided in this question, we have no way of knowing if that is the only thing being mocked.

Thus, lack of context.

IMO, a flag should definitely be raised for comments like that. I just wouldn't mark it as "harassment, bigotry or abuse", because claims like that need substantiation, not assumptions. It was an unhelpful, and potentially distasteful comment.

Save the "harassment, bigotry or abuse" flags for clear cut cases so the validity of that flag can remain somewhat useful.

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    The one detail you didn't seem to consider is that moderators have context. The only reason the kind audience on meta doesn't have context is that I wanted to spare the owner of the question from the meta effect. Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 16:18
  • Im not referring to the flagging, I'm referring to this question. We don't have context. Marking someone/something as Abusive or what have you and then asking if its okay without providing full unbiased context is unhelpful.
    – Pezetter
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 17:35
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    OK, your penultimate paragraph confused me. You wrote "I just wouldn't mark it as »harassment, bigotry or abuse«, because claims like that need substantiation, not assumptions". This seems to concern moderators and the person raising the flag, both of whom have full context. Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 17:40
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    Yeah you're right. I think what I was aiming for is that given the context I have here, I would not agree with your flag.
    – Pezetter
    Commented Jan 17, 2019 at 17:47
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The comment is condescending and rude, so at an absolute minimum it qualifies as "unfriendly or unkind."

In my opinion, it is abusive because it "attacks a person or group." That kind of comment is intrinsically mocking anyone who uses Indian English, which is kind of the definition of attacking a group (especially given that, as you mention, that's actually a perfectly correct thing to say).

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