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This is a request for a new roomba rule.

Proposal: a roomba for negatively scored questions with all answers being negatively scored too

The following is the detailed proposal; conditions and naming can be refined:

If a question matches all those conditions:

  • is more than 365 days old
  • has a score of -1 or less
  • all non-deleted answers have a score of -1 or less
  • has not received any vote in the past 9 days
  • isn't on a meta site

... it will be automatically deleted. These are "abandoned low score", and are termed as RemoveAbandonedLowScore.

Impact

Roughly 20,000 questions today would be affected with the above conditions according to a SEDE query from Shog9: https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/946442/abandoned-low-score

Context of the proposal

This new rule would differ from the existing ones because other roomba rules have those restrictions:

  • RemoveDeadQuestions requires "has no answers"
  • RemoveAbandonedQuestions requires "has no answers"
  • RemoveAbandonedClosed requires "question was closed"

So the first existing two rules are forever inapplicable as soon as there is an answer, no matter how poor it is. And the third rule's requirement is a challenge for old questions: people don't close vote anymore on old questions and the votes generally age away.

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  • 4
    @Makoto That link is proposing deleting answers while keeping the question around. This is just saying that downvoted answers shouldn't prevent deletion of a question that would otherwise merit being roombaed.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 14, 2018 at 18:10
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    @Servy: I see the same logic being applied for this case. Irrespective of if the question sticks around or not, effectively we could be giving legions of low-rep users a ton of deletion power which becomes difficult to audit or trace. Note that I don't disagree with this proposal considering that the link above shows I at least posted something similar. But there's more angles to consider on this. I only left it there for reference.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 14, 2018 at 18:14
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    Ok: here's a query that'll give you the total # of questions this would delete if it ran today (well... If it ran the day the last data-dump was pushed to SEDE), along with a semi-random sample of 200 questions from that population of ~20K questions. Have a look & see what you can do with it: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/946442/…
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 14, 2018 at 18:14
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    @Makoto Well pretty much all of the answers to that question explaining why they don't think it's a good idea are specifically because the question would still stay around, and that "answers are different". I didn't notice anyone suggesting that "downvotes shouldn't have that much power" (although I haven't read many of the comments).
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 14, 2018 at 18:16
  • I think it's probably more useful to just look in the data for reasons to not delete this stuff vs. discussing it in abstract; 20K is a lot of questions, but... It's also just .1% of all visible questions on SO - this wouldn't really add much to what the existing criteria are already doing, so finding almost anything of potential value kinda torpedoes the idea.
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 14, 2018 at 18:26
  • So I sorted @Shog9's SEDE query results in order of descending question score (i.e. -1 first). The first question in my area I saw was C# marshaling C struct (-1 with one -1 answer). I don't see any need to auto-delete the question -- and the downvote on the answer appears to predate the EDIT: A better way. What is the purpose of deleting such a question?
    – dbc
    Commented Dec 14, 2018 at 20:37
  • On the other hand the lowest-scoring question in my area (c#) is Largest and smallest random number C# (-5 with -2 answer, not accepted)... yeah, that looks totally deletable. So simply deleting all -1 questions with only negative answers seems too aggressive. But I can't think how to determine a reasonable cutoff for auto-deletion.
    – dbc
    Commented Dec 14, 2018 at 20:43
  • @dbc isn't the question you don't want to get deleted a duplicated? If the information is available in another Q&A pair, I would say that losing the suboptimal one is a feature we would want.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 1:26
  • @Braiam - isn't the question you don't want to get deleted a duplicated? -- no? It's stackoverflow.com/q/43256660 which is not marked as such. Also the answer got two upvotes yesterday, possibly because of this thread, so it's no longer relevant.
    – dbc
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 2:02
  • @dbc are you sure that it wasn't asked before? Have you searched?
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 13:27
  • I really wish SO would not use Trademark terms. It's all of hugely annoying, inappropriate, and confusing. There is nothing, whatsoever, "funny!" or "witty!" about it, and it is 100% negative in all ways, with no upside whatsoever.
    – Fattie
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 16:09
  • You wanted to ask a rhetorical question? C, I do think it goes to the heart of your actual question. ("Answer, NO, because you shouldn't use a trademark term.") Rather than a comment.
    – Fattie
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 16:25
  • Trademark? You mean that "roomba" thing they speak of? Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 17:19
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    @Fattie your comment doesnt make sense because this question isn't proposing using the name "roomba" for an auto deletion mechanism. Such a mechanism with such a name is already in place. This question is proposing a new filter for the existing auto delete mechanism with the name of "roomba". If you want to lobby for a name change, that would be a separate meta post.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 19:01

3 Answers 3

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I would tend to oppose the proposal as written, for a couple of reasons. The roomba rule is intended to delete questions that are valueless. Old questions with no answers are almost by definition valueless since they have no answer. In fact they tend to subtract value by attracting "Me Too" answers that clog up the review queue. But we cannot necessarily conclude an answered question is valueless beyond a reasonable doubt simply from the up- and down-votes.

Firstly, if the question is answered, then the answerer themself thought the question was valuable enough to spend time writing up their post. And if the answer is accepted, then the questioner thought the answer was valuable. Both the answer and its acceptance are a kind of implicit upvote for the thread that the proposed rule does not take into account.

Secondly, in obscure areas such as, say, , , , or whatever, the proposed rule would seem to give one cranky downvoter too much power to delete content. E.g. a question could be asked and answered about DataContractJsonSerializer and then both could collect a downvote from someone who also comments, Use Json.NET instead it's recommended by Microsoft. Since the topic is obscure the downvotes might never get offset, causing a "mass cleanout" of answered questions on niche technologies that nevertheless are valuable to those communities.

What's worse, in both scenarios, if the questioner and answerer(s) were low-rep users at the time, they would have been unable to vote no matter how valuable they found each others contributions.

Hypothetically we could modify the proposal by adding an additional filter that treats each answer and the acceptance of an answer as an implicit upvote:

  • has a net score calculated by (net votes for the question and all answers) + (number of answers) + (1 if an answer is accepted) < -1

For example, I took Shog9's query, sorted it in order of descending question score, and grabbed the "least bad" in my area of expertise: C# marshaling C struct. It's a sort of obscure optimization question involving marshaling where the main complaint seems to be that the optimization is unnecessary in the questioner's scenario. But the question isn't completely valueless as the optimization might be useful in more "extreme" situations -- in fact Hans Passant's comment to that effect may be the most valuable thing there.

Under the proposed rule this question would get deleted, but with the additional net score filtering it would not, because the presence of the answer and the acceptance of the answer add two implicit upvotes producing a net score of 0.

On the other hand the lowest-scoring question in my area is Largest and smallest random number C# (-5 with -2 answer, not accepted)... yeah, that looks totally deletable. And it easily gets deleted under both the proposed rule and my modification.

But still there's that magic net score cutoff of -1. Should it be 0? -2? How can we decide? And if we can't decide on a cutoff number for identifying valueless content beyond a reasonable doubt, I'm not sure we should be doing it at all.

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    The roomba also deletes questions that no one shows any interest in. That doesn't mean they don't have any value, it just means they've existed on the site for a long enough period of time without anyone showing an interest. The question is, does someone an answer that gets downvoted to a question that otherwise no one would care about mean that it shouldn't be deleted.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 15, 2018 at 2:08
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    Two possible simple alternatives to your proposed formula: a. requiring -2 on the question. b. requiring -2 on accepted answers. Like that, no maths, and it becomes easier to grasp.
    – Cœur
    Commented Dec 15, 2018 at 4:50
  • @Cœur - those simplifications seem plausible. Can somebody fork & modify the SEDE query to require accepted answers to have a score of <= -2?
    – dbc
    Commented Dec 15, 2018 at 20:51
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    @dbc Query forked to require -2 on question and answers. I found quite a few answers that have -2 or less (e.g. 1, 2, 3) that are also accepted. Should they also be deleted?
    – DavidG
    Commented Dec 15, 2018 at 23:27
  • Excluding questions with accepted answers
    – DavidG
    Commented Dec 15, 2018 at 23:34
  • "The roomba rule is intended to delete questions that are valueless." well, if there's another question on the site that covers the same problem/solution pair better, I would say the negatively scored question doesn't have value.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 1:28
  • I agree with this answer. I watch both the php and mysql tags and even though that and for (one) example, a question is posted with code related to databases and doesn't have proper security functions used, and the answers either make no mention of it either with references and/or code, doesn't make it a "wrong" answer, it could mean that someone's reason to have downvoted them, was (probably) related to them not including that in their answer. I can't speak for them, but it is possible. If it fixed the problem at the time, then it could still fix it today, given it's still valid. Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 3:51
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Formulating those adjustments to address the raised concerns:

  • A -2 requirement on the question will make sure that one user alone is not enough to trigger a deletion.

  • A -2 requirement on an accepted answer will ensure it wasn't a salvageable answer for the community.

So the proposal becomes:

If a question matches all those conditions:

  • is more than 365 days old
  • has a score of -2 or less
  • all non-deleted answers have a score of -1 or less
  • if there is a non-deleted accepted answer, it has a score of -2 or less
  • has not received any vote in the past 9 days
  • isn't on a meta site

... it will be automatically deleted. These are "abandoned low score", and are termed as RemoveAbandonedLowScore.

Impact

The following SEDE query gives 7362 questions impacted: https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/947277/abandoned-low-score

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  • Has not received any votes in the past 9 days including downvotes? That would give question and/or answer owners times to flag any suspicious voting patterns before auto deletion. Mind you, flags can still be raised after auto deletion.
    – user3956566
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 17:43
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    @YvetteColomb yes, it's to give a chance for a vote reversal before auto deletion: but I wrote this condition in my original proposal where only 1 downvote was enough to trigger the deletion; in this answer and updated proposal where multiple downvotes are required, it's less useful to give a delay. Not that it should make much difference for such old questions: I count 7368 questions if I remove the absence of recent votes condition, so the difference is only 6 questions.
    – Cœur
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 17:57
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    I support this proposal. I've been a fan of utilising roomba more vigorously to help clean up the site meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/371071/…. Given how low quality posts are such a concern, it makes sense.
    – user3956566
    Commented Dec 16, 2018 at 18:00
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    What if the question was self-answered? Commented Dec 17, 2018 at 3:39
  • @VictorStafusa well, no difference: a self-answered with -2 on the question and -2 on the self-accepted answer after 365 days means it isn't worth it for the community anymore.
    – Cœur
    Commented Dec 17, 2018 at 3:55
  • What if it was something controversial with +4/-6 for example? Commented Dec 17, 2018 at 4:01
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    @VictorStafusa same. And note that downvoting on answers costs reputation, so you don't find 6 downvotes on an answer unless it's plain wrong. If you mean on the question, then there are other roomba rules to even delete at +4/-4 like "RemoveAbandonedQuestions". The difference being that a negatively score answer shouldn't save the question.
    – Cœur
    Commented Dec 17, 2018 at 4:48
  • From burnination experience, this is almost exactly right. I say we need exactly one more rule. No stars on the question.
    – Joshua
    Commented Dec 17, 2018 at 17:12
  • On further reflection, no stars by someone who didn't answer the question would work better.
    – Joshua
    Commented Dec 17, 2018 at 17:20
-11

One more way to empower drive-by downvoters

Anyone who regularly answers questions on SO knows the pattern. A question is clear to one party, but not to someone else. One answerer hasn't found a duplicate, but another believes he/she has. So "the solution" for that someone else is to drive-by downvote the question and all answers, occasionally the only answer, to try and push people into deleting their answers so a question can be roomba'd.

Typically, there's no comment either, and the Q&A receives little attention thereafter. Which leaves everyone (questioner, answerer, users) confused: is that answer downvoted because the question is bad, or is the answer wrong?

Sometimes, the only answer is accepted as part of a downvote-anything-you-can Q&A.

I want to keep my negatively voted answers

There are several I think don't deserve downvotes and would rather not have deleted:

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