38

This morning I posted two possible solutions to this question as a comment while I searched for a duplicate as the root issue was something many inexperienced in databinding make. I eventually found a couple of questions that I viewed as duplicates and marked the question as such.

The poster was adamant that the question is unique and not a duplicate because of extensive research on his part and that I should post an answer. I declined and let it go.

After taking care of other things, I that saw that there was further commentary and took a look. The question has now been edited with a diatribe of why duplicate suggestion is pure folly with one of the reasons being

It is too long to read.

Other stated reason included it not mentioning every ancillary thing the poster included in the problem description. I have no problem with him making his case, but the thing that brought me here was the final paragraph:

Also I spent a lot of time searching before asking the question here. If there is a duplicate, it certainly wasn't findable by me. So please spare me the schtick and just answer the question.

Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but I take that as a personal attack as I'm the one to have had the audacity to suggest that the poster is not the first person to encounter their problem.

So finally to my question, should I:

  1. Flag the question as "Rude or Abusive"
  2. Edit out out the offending content.
  3. Ignore and add the user-account to my ever-growing list of posters that I ignore.
18
  • 19
    Even if you engaged in comments with this user, I do not see that a comment like this should be interpreted as a direct attack on you. I would vote on the post, maybe edit out the last phrase, and move on.
    – yivi
    Nov 23, 2018 at 18:51
  • 17
    I say maybe edit out the last phrase, because I think that it may be wise for you not to engage further with this user. Let someone else deal with the post. You've already tried to help. Maybe is better to vote and move on.
    – yivi
    Nov 23, 2018 at 18:52
  • 4
    @yivi, thanks for the comments. I really did not think that it would be productive if I edited the content as that would just lead to more interaction with an individual that thinks looking code that makes it work as researching a problem.
    – TnTinMn
    Nov 23, 2018 at 19:11
  • 2
    3 extra downvotes so far. Hard to be sure at which point you feel better, but three ought to get into the ballpark. Edited. Nov 23, 2018 at 19:23
  • 1
    The entire rant about the duplicate was completely unnecessary. It has only one close vote. Nov 23, 2018 at 19:28
  • @HansPassant, I was leaning towards just flagging it (option 1), but I was not sure if that was the proper route to go. Thanks, to you and yivi for editing the question.
    – TnTinMn
    Nov 23, 2018 at 19:34
  • 6
    They are rude but they have a point. A question that long can hardly be a good duplicate target for any question.
    – ayhan
    Nov 23, 2018 at 19:42
  • 7
    @ayhan care to elaborate? where in the definition of what Stack considers dupes does length ever comes into play?
    – Patrice
    Nov 23, 2018 at 20:00
  • 11
    @Patrice In order for a question to be that long it needs to contain a lot of details. Those details are either important or they are just noise. If they are important then that means the question is too localized and the probability of all those details matching up is very low. If they are just noise then why send people from less noisy version to more noisy version.
    – ayhan
    Nov 23, 2018 at 20:12
  • 2
    @ayhan fair point in a lot of cases. But one thing I will say is sometimes, such questions can need such a length, since some concepts are just that intricate. In a lot of cases I guess it can get too far on the localized/broad spectrum. I don't have the product knowledge here to know if it's the case or not, to be honest. But I think there are some situations, even though rare, where a pearl of a question necessitates such a length and is still a good duplicate target. That's where the community is expected to use judgement I guess.
    – Patrice
    Nov 23, 2018 at 20:19
  • 4
    It might make sense to try and see this from the other side. I can only guess that the OP was somewhat jaded by their past experiences - it is extremely common (and, I must say, infuriating!) for mods to flag questions as duplicates, when they are clearly not (if they actually read past the title). And yes, I (like many) also have a chip on my shoulder about this
    – Cocowalla
    Nov 23, 2018 at 22:23
  • 3
    @Cocowalla, I too am dismayed by closures of valid questions. Recently, I answered one via comments because it was closed with a reason of: "a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical error" for a question that involved no code. To make matters worse, 3 of the close votes were from persons who never answered a question on the technology for a topic that required domain specific knowledge.
    – TnTinMn
    Nov 24, 2018 at 0:18
  • 9
    I already apologized for the "schtick" comment and I hope you accept that apology. You were right to flag it as a duplicate. And I was right to defend it as not a duplicate (SO does encourage that after all, as Jean-François Fabre noted). I should not have been offended by the duplicate flag; that was on me. I wish though, you would have directly commented that you were offended. I could've apologized and we could have moved on quickly. I was deeply offended that you unleashed a flood of negativity on me from meta. That was not necessary.
    – D_Bester
    Nov 24, 2018 at 13:42
  • 3
    I, too, get annoyed and frustrated when people without reading comprehension make knee-jerk reactions and mark questions as duplicates when they are clearly not.
    – Chloe
    Nov 25, 2018 at 17:40
  • 4
    "How dare he write this diatribe characterising my argument a shtick!?", asked the beleaguered victim in a tirade, only to be unexpectedly met by this commenter's harangue. It seems to me that the paragraph you quote, while perhaps... a touch abrasive... doesn't merit a mod flag, and is no more combative than your own characterisation of the situation here.
    – Mark Amery
    Nov 26, 2018 at 11:13

5 Answers 5

29

I think I understand why OP felt compelled to add something to the answer.

When you suggest a duplicate (without hammering), different people see different things:

  • Normal users see a "possible duplicate" comment
  • 3k+ users see the "close (1)" text instead of just "close"
  • and OP sees a big "possible duplicate banner"

For OP there's this choice:

  • either accept the duplicate and let community close the question
  • or "it's different I'll edit to explain why"

I suppose that OP felt (like a lot of posters) that their question is "unique" without trying to understand that the provided link tries to help them. Besides, the fact that OP has 3k+ rep makes them "experienced" and yet not an "old-timer", and some resent the duplicate suggestion, unlike most newbies.

They edited to explain why it's different, and got carried away in non-technical edits/rant.

Ignore and add the user-account to my ever growing list of posters that I ignore.

No, we're moderating content, not users. Everyone gets angry once in a while and gets carried away. As long as it's exceptional, let it pass (I would remember revenge downvotes if it happened, though)

Edit out out the offending content.

A rollback (maybe with a comment) is the way to go, unless an edit/rollback war starts, in that case, involve the moderators with a custom mod flag (which doesn't seem necessary right now)

7
  • 2
    I appreciate that you took the time to explain your reasoning and the description how rep level determines what is displayed to the poster was informative. However, I disagree with the implication that resentment of a suggestion that their question is not unique is an excuse to discount the suggested duplicate without even reading it. As far as being a moderator of content, that is exactly what I was attempting as I still firmly believe this question is a duplicate and I am tired of seeing way to many questions that have been asked before and/or are fully addressed by the documentation.
    – TnTinMn
    Nov 24, 2018 at 0:04
  • I recognize that a great part of my answer is trying to explain why people react that way. Nov 24, 2018 at 8:49
  • 3
    "Normal users see nothing" - they should see a comment suggesting the duplicate
    – Bergi
    Nov 24, 2018 at 16:11
  • my bad, yes, they see that, unless comment is removed (unlikely) Nov 24, 2018 at 16:13
  • 1
    It's notable, too, that for many users "duplicate" means "duplicate question", when really we use it to mean "your question is answered there". Instead of linking the question, it may be better received to link directly to one of its answer, chosen for pertinence: "Does <this anwer> answers your question?" Nov 25, 2018 at 20:41
  • 1
    FYI; <3K users only see "close" on their own questions. On posts of other people, they only see "flag".
    – Filnor
    Nov 26, 2018 at 11:52
  • 1
    I think the OP should have opened a Meta question here trying to understand how those 2 questions were one duplicate of another instead of a rant, and now his question would have a lot of up-votes. The target question for duplication is an incredibly bad question where the answer literally says 'Somewhere in my code I think something (I don't know exactly what) was getting lost when I made the reference from the main list to the binding source.' It is hard to get more vague than that. I think it is wrong that he reacted that way, but the duplicate was not following SO guidelines either.
    – Dzyann
    Nov 26, 2018 at 17:43
20

I've got to say, I'm pretty strongly sympathetic to the asker, in this case.

I don't know anything about the specific technical topic being asked about, but here are some surface-level observations about your duplicate target:

  • It's enormously and pointlessly long
  • The question is littered with ugly or outright broken formatting
  • Both the question and answer contain replies to commenters
  • It almost certainly deserves closure for lack of an MCVE. (Again, I don't know the topic well, so I'm not going to close-vote, but surely that 343-line snippet cannot possibly be a minimal example of the same problem that D_Bester apparently illustrated in 21 lines?)
  • The answer ultimately doesn't reach a conclusion about the cause of the problem, instead just speculating without articulating any justification:

    Somewhere in my code I think something (I don't know exactly what) was getting lost when I made the reference from the main list to the binding source. Maybe it was the fact that is was a Generic list that I was using

In other words, it's crap. Why close questions as duplicates of crap? How does that make the internet a better place? Wouldn't you end up with a clearly better experience for future readers if you succinctly answered the new question and then closed the old one as a duplicate of the new?

Duplicate closure is meant - as I understand it - to be a tool to help curate our library of questions. We're supposed, in general, to close the least useful duplicate as a variant of the most useful, not just the newer one as a duplicate of the older, because the goal is for everyone landing at any of the duplicates to get directed to the best quality one. We even have a common norm of asking and self-answering "canonical" questions to use as a duplicate target for bad questions that were frequently asked previously.

It seems to me that the way you've used duplicate closure here instead undermines that objective, by preventing a good-quality version of this question from ever being answered in favour of retaining a hideous and barely comprehensible version of it that was once asked in the past. That seems like it's harmful to the overall quality of the site, and I don't see that it really serves any purpose.

4
  • 3
    How does that make the internet a place? ... do you miss "better" there or did I miss the joke again?
    – rene
    Nov 26, 2018 at 12:23
  • 3
    @rene I missed "better". I'm sort of amused by the error, but have nonetheless fixed it.
    – Mark Amery
    Nov 26, 2018 at 12:54
  • 1
    As a person who has been using this site daily for 8 years or so, I find that it is frequently the case (maybe 2/3 of the time) that I will find a question "closed as duplicate" that actually has the correct answer to the question, while the linked "original" has minimally relevant information, or even outright wrong answers. Also, since I am an eternally "low score" user, I can't vote to reopen, and I can't do anything other than leaving a comment in support of the question. It is extremely frustrating.
    – Matsu Q.
    Nov 26, 2018 at 17:35
  • 1
    I have a post in meta that felt like a flame war about duplicates. At the time I pushed for a system where the OP could select which of the duplicate post really did answer their question (not always the selected one). I agree that TLDR; duplicate posts are more of a burden than a help. I like the idea of being able to close the original and make the new 'cleaner' answer the real deal.
    – D-Klotz
    Nov 26, 2018 at 18:24
19

My apologies on the "schtick" schtick. I can see how it was offensive.

10
  • 2
    btw I remain VERY grateful to the OP for the answer that was given in the comments. It totally solved my problem.
    – D_Bester
    Nov 23, 2018 at 21:23
  • 25
    It being a long read...only highlights the level of effort you're willing to bring to the table. Yeah, it might be. But just saying, "Too long, didn't read, not relevant", doesn't help you. It also weakens the rest of your arguments, because you just told us you didn't read it.
    – fbueckert
    Nov 23, 2018 at 21:35
  • @fbueckert Actually I did read it.
    – D_Bester
    Nov 23, 2018 at 21:36
  • 25
    @D_Bester If you did read it, then that means it wasn't too long to read. See how it's kind of a no-win situation? Saying it loses if you didn't read it because it weakens the argument, and saying it loses of you did read it because doing so invalidates the point. It's just better not to say that it's too long to read.
    – Davy M
    Nov 24, 2018 at 0:54
  • 7
    @Yvette Why the rollback? An apology is often much more effective when it's not accompanied by attempts at justification, and when the OP removed them, it helped.
    – Davy M
    Nov 26, 2018 at 1:15
  • @DavyM I was responding to a flag. Feel free to rollback the rollback
    – user3956566
    Nov 26, 2018 at 2:53
  • What was your reason for deleting your question and self-answer? I'm not qualified to judge the quality of either, but I fear it was done just to get the Meta mob off your back - in which case I'd urge you to do what you think is right, and not what placates your critics. If you think the posts have value to future readers, keep them around.
    – Mark Amery
    Nov 27, 2018 at 13:14
  • @MarkAmery When a question has that many negative votes, it will not appear in search results and thus has zero value.
    – D_Bester
    Nov 27, 2018 at 13:37
  • @D_Bester I don't think that's true. As far as I know, Google pays no attention to votes.
    – Mark Amery
    Nov 27, 2018 at 13:39
  • @MarkAmery Well I've read that in an SO blog, I can't tell you the source anymore. Technically SO has the ability to mark any page as non-searchable. I don't know the specifics of policy.
    – D_Bester
    Nov 27, 2018 at 13:41
7

If something is rude, flag it.

Otherwise, questions aren't for arguing about duplicates. The OP can add an edit explaining why another post is not a duplicate, if they do so in purely technical terms. Further things that aren't related to the question itself should be posted as comments.

Edits that introduce rude things like "just answer the question" and similar should be edited out/rolled back. Merits a down-vote as well.

1
  • I think the first paragraph (6 words) may earn you some -1's. At the very least, vandalised and repairable rudeness shouldn't be flagged as such, and should be edited instead.
    – iBug
    Nov 26, 2018 at 15:51
-12

The frustration factor is HUGE when you've spent time on a problem, can't find a solution, and someone votes to close because the question is 99% the same. "Just answer the question" is something I've personally iterated to other commentors/voters in the past on other people's questions.

That 1% can be difficult to spot, even for veterans. The nuances of programming aren't well uttered in English, so we befall these communication problems aaaaall the tiiiiime.

Honestly, I'm on the side of the Asker. Even though I'm aware that SO will be more cluttered than before. This needs to be sorted.

It's a shame that SO refuses to accommodate the 1-to-1 help needed by some people...

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  • 13
    Stack Overflow is not built for one on one help. It's not a refusal to accommodate; it's built into the design of the website. Also, saying "just answer the question" is not a good comment to make; comments are meant for clarification of the post. I would likely flag such a comment as "no longer needed" or even "unfriendly or unkind". Note the poster of the question can easily reduce the chances of a duplicate close vote by adding text to the question that indicates they've read the duplicate, how they've applied the answers, and how that application did not work. Nov 26, 2018 at 18:13
  • I still think that the community ought to take serious note of the negativity. Whether it's for some cause or not, it puts people off, big time. Every one of my colleagues at work are too scared to ask questions on SO because of this kind of thing.
    – Dan Rayson
    Nov 26, 2018 at 21:49
  • The truth hurts, eh SO?
    – Dan Rayson
    Nov 26, 2018 at 21:52
  • 1
    What is the truth that is supposed to be hurting? There are ways for posters to head off duplicate closure. If used, they generally forestall closure. The only negativity I'm seeing here is from you with comments like "just answer the question".... Nov 26, 2018 at 21:57
  • @HereticMonkey The disregard for the asker's needs is a problem, for the askers, that is. I'm convinced that the majority here are more interested in "high quality questions" then the needs of the people this site supposedly helps. Elitism is rampant, veterans scorn the noobs, the noobs hate the veterans because they're just so mean. It's a farce.
    – Dan Rayson
    Nov 26, 2018 at 23:39
  • @DanRayson so to me, what you posted is a shorter version of this: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/377095/567162 It is interesting theorizing why your version was down-voted. I believe if you removed the one on one reference you would have had better support.
    – D-Klotz
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:03
  • I find it unfortunate that, even after all the explanations we've given, and you seem to understand it, you're continuing to rail against the standards, using the same tired arguments you did before. I don't believe there's any good faith going on anymore.
    – fbueckert
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:06
  • @fbueckert While I do understand the arguments, the problems still persist. That's all.
    – Dan Rayson
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:12
  • 3
    It is not a problem that SE can, or should, solve. Expecting it to will only lead to frustration.
    – fbueckert
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:15
  • @fbueckert That's where we differ on opinion. I'd draw the analogy of a government with a monopoly on people's way of life, SE is so huge that I think it qualifies. It forces us to ask questions in a certain way. If someone doesn't like it, they are wrong and they should move to another country? That's ad-hominem.
    – Dan Rayson
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:42
  • 3
    SE is not the whole of the internet. In fact, it's far from it. It is not meant to solve every problem, and, as stated, that expectation will only lead to frustration. SE's success (or lack thereof) does not obligate it to behave in a manner that conforms to your expectations.
    – fbueckert
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:44
  • 1
    @fbueckert It most certainly has the monopoly though. Biggest of the smalls if you like.
    – Dan Rayson
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:45
  • 1
    SE not having any effective competition is still not an argument for it to be required to accommodate other expectations. It is, however, a great argument for creating your own.
    – fbueckert
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:46
  • @fbueckert Not required to, just advised.
    – Dan Rayson
    Nov 27, 2018 at 16:49
  • You advise them to. I, along with everyone else who understands the mission, advise them not to. It distracts from the goal.
    – fbueckert
    Nov 27, 2018 at 19:50

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