99

Recently the case occurred where a questioner realised in the comments he had painted himself into a corner code-wise, and commented with "Damn it. Can anyone suggest a work-around then please?" Just this one exclamation in an otherwise civilised and rather constructive comment thread.

That comment got flagged as "not nice", declined, then flagged again, and it ended in a somewhat heated back and forth in a moved-to-chat discussion, the upshot of which is:

Being declined twice, is an attack on my personal catholic values which insults me and my culture. It seems that my own personal values aren't worth crap.

While I understand that "damn it" is a bad word in certain circles, it's a rather commonplace mild exclamation in most other circles. I find being addressed as "Dear" by certain cultures somewhat more offensive, but also understand that it absolutely isn't meant that way and can hence ignore it.

To what extent shall we police language, especially if it's not a universally regarded expletive, and from the context it's clear that absolutely no harm is meant against anyone?

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  • 13
    Am I right in remembering that mods can edit comments?
    – Nissa
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:26
  • 126
    Damn it! I knew this would happen.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:26
  • 15
    @StephenLeppik Yes, that ended up happening. The question is: is that necessary?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:27
  • 48
    define "genuine offense"...
    – mxmissile
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:29
  • 11
    Yikes, those flags were a bit extreme. I have a greater tolerance for language than stereotyping / bias. For example, racial / ethnic / national / political stereotyping, even when described in calm language, is far worse.
    – jpp
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:32
  • 38
    This is the issue with moderating language. The problem always arises as to where do you draw the line. Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:35
  • 12
    @psubsee2003 Yes, the only offence here was the word “damn” in the context of the flagger’s Christian values.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:44
  • 6
    I’ll have to note here that as a moderator, we can only dismiss such flags or delete the comment. Accepting the flag and editing the comment is not currently possible. And outright deleting the comment was certainly uncalled for here.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 18:02
  • 6
    Maybe if a comment is flagged for that reason, just edit the offending word into a Ned Flanders equivalent. Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 20:08
  • 13
    Where I'm from and when I was a kid, "crap" was stronger than "damn".
    – Ken Y-N
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 23:18
  • 17
    Moderators should not be in the habit of editing comments
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 3:49
  • 62
    I'm not a native English speaker so correct me if I'm wrong, but I find it ironic and I'd even call it double standards that someone who's offended by "damn it" ends his sentence with "aren't worth crap"!
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 10:25
  • 7
    Perhaps ancillary - "catholic" in lowercase means "universal" and as such is a misuse of the word. Perhaps OP meant to say Catholic, in which case there's a different conversation about religious proselytization to be had.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:31
  • 10
    Are we sure this person isn't trolling the be-nice policy?
    – canon
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 17:41
  • 7
    @canon surprisingly, no we cannot be sure. There are misunderstood people in the internet.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 17:49

13 Answers 13

69

We had a user at Arqade that tended to apply their personal standard to many interactions on the site, even those that did not involve them. Our community...did not react well. We told them they were being unreasonable. The response was to double down and become more forceful about it. Meta posts were made, they were heavily downvoted, I think there was a suspension in there, somewhere, etc., etc.

That story seems to have many similarities to the current situation, so what I wrote then probably applies quite handily here:

The problem is that this is the internet. There are a rather large number of people who frequent Arqade StackOverflow, and our tastes can differ wildly. That's part of being a community. In such a place, there are things you are and are not allowed to say. Just because you don't find it offensive does not mean it's not. The community may view it as offensive. In order to participate in the community, you have to conform to the norms inherent to it.

Obviously, your norms differ from the community's. That does not give you the right to impose your standards on the community as a whole.

If the community finds it offensive, it will be clear based on the flags raised on it. If not, then it's clear the community finds it acceptable for the professional discourse currently ongoing.

A single user does not have the right to dictate mores and ethics to the community as a whole. It is their job to adapt to the community in which they find themselves, not for the community to adapt to them.

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  • 34
    I don't think "damn it" is professional, but I don't think it's commonly regarded as offensive.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 2:36
  • 18
    The problem is exacerbated when the community finds itself having to deal with someone who doesn't feel bound by the rules they wish to impose on others, if it's not too rude to point that out.
    – AakashM
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 9:54
  • 19
    @YvetteColomb We work in very different areas, then. I hear that, and worse, on a regular basis at work. But, again, the point I'm making is that our personal standards don't really matter. What matters is what the community decides. Some are going to be okay with it. Some won't be. Here, it seems like it was perfectly fine, and someone turned a molehill into a mountain.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 11:53
  • 1
    I honestly can't tell if you're talking about the user who flagged it or the mod who declined the flag here. The main thing that would make me think you're agreeing with the mod is the upvotes on the question. Or maybe this is a commentary on the flagging system as a whole? Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:07
  • 1
    Your answer sounds pretty... unwelcoming. =p
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 6:21
  • 1
    I see people talking about professionalism... which is fine, except that being professional doesn't mean that you do/don't use certain words, but that their behavior is professional, which again is highly contextual, with the only usually common quality being about assuming responsibilities.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 20:40
  • Shall I dig up an expletive particularly tailored to offend only you?
    – Joshua
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 20:57
  • 1
    @Joshua You could, but you'd be operating in pretty bad faith, deliberately trying to offend someone. At which point, action should be taken on you for doing so. It seems like you're deliberately misconstruing the point I'm making, so...I'm not sure there's any point in continuing to discuss this with you.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 21:00
  • @fbueckert: I think your argument is unsound and found that was the shortest path to pointing it out.
    – Joshua
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 21:03
  • 5
    @Joshua Awesome. Way to argue your point. Have fun with that.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 21:04
49

I think that there are two possibilities:

  • There are very clear guidelines from the SE mothership regarding what specific language is allowed and what not, what should be used and what shouldn't; and then you mods follow that.

  • In absense of the previous guidelines, mods should follow the "community's will" and their "common sense", whatever that is. If you, as a mod, disagree with a flag and feel that you are following the letter and spirit of the CoC, you decline it in good faith. If multiple flags from multiple users are raised regarding the same comment despite you disagreeing, it may be time to reevaluate and to maybe reach for consensus with other mods (or in meta, as you are doing here).

But a single user becoming vehement and raising multiple flags shouldn't be a reason for you to have to reconsider your handling of a flag.

If I am personally offended by people using the expression "spaghetti code" because of my deeply rooted pastafarian beliefs, it doesn't mean that the rest of the world should only express in a way I approve.

As long as they are not (intentionally or unintentionally) harrassing or derogating my group or beliefs, I should live and let live, and you as a mod should decline any of my flags where I'm offended by the use of pasta in vain.

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  • 31
    Not to sound insensitive, but would "spaghetti code" be holy? Genuinely curious.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:53
  • 8
    "As long as they are not (intentionally or unintentionally) harrassing or derogating my group or beliefs, I should live and let live" this, just this!
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:57
  • 21
    May you be Touched by Quob’s Noodly Appendage.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 18:06
  • 10
    @Makoto holy crap ...
    – rene
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 18:33
  • 8
    @rene: I see what you did there
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 19:56
  • 10
    My pastafarian bro, you have just made my day ;)
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 21:33
30

At this point all I can find the strength to do is roll my eyes and sigh.

The issue at hand is a simple one.

  • Person A said what could be considered in the United States as "mild" profanity.
  • Person B applied their internal beliefs to what was said, believed it to be inappropriate, and flagged it.

The issue is that neither person in this scenario was really wrong in doing this. It isn't like Person A swore like a sailor, nor is it like the context of the profanity is lacking. Person B did what most any sensible person would; they applied what they believed and decided to interpret it in a specific fashion.

The real problem now is that there's no tie-breaker. Normally there would be a moderation policy which comes into effect to determine who was more or less right in this circumstance, but as noted above, it doesn't seem like either side was actually in the wrong here.

My gut tells me this:

  • The mild profanity from Person A is likely tolerable in this context, but probably shouldn't be continued; a message to that effect would work IMO.
  • Person B should be informed that Person A was at least cautioned about it. If they have more issues with it they can bring them up on Meta to have the community discuss it. Encourage them to not make this about themselves or their beliefs, as that factors in quite little to the discussion at hand and can only serve to make the situation more volatile than it needs to be.
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  • 22
    Or better yet, don't validate people sensibilities.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:48
  • 6
    @Braiam: I suppose I'l rephrase. People's sensibilities determine what they flag. Only through discussion could moderation be effective at determining what is truly offensive. Brushing it aside is not what we need to do here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:50
  • 23
    One of the upvotes is mine as I mostly agree, but my issue here is that someone saw a word in writing, and was not the target of the language, and chose to be offended by the mere existence of a word. What if he/she saw it written on another website? Would they choose to start flagging and complaining? Would they stop using the site? What if they heard it on a TV show or movie? Would they stop watching it? I guess my point is the same as my comment on the question - where do we draw the line as I'm sure there are plenty of seemingly benign sayings that are offensive to someone Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:53
  • 2
    @psubsee2003: At a minimum we can have a discussion about this since everyone on the Internet gets offended at something. If it becomes too much, moderation could intervene with the discussion at hand and draw a firm line in the sand.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:54
  • 11
    My point @psubsee2003. It's the freaking internet, and english language in particular have a limited set of words you can express a whole array of idea and sentiments. These people may feel offended by the dictionary.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:55
  • 20
    @Braiam Americans are certainly offended by the English dictionary, (vowels in particular:). Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 19:11
  • 3
    Totally agree. Except it requires even less discussion. Decline the flag, and then delete the comment. Yeh "damn it" is not professional, but it doesn't warrant an offensive flag penalty. By deleting the comment, the conversation is over. If the person doesn't like the dismissed flag, they can then raise another flag or bring it to meta. Doesn't warrant a heated chat discussion.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 2:41
23

Let it stand.

As far as profanity goes, it's mild at best. Yes, we are all professionals. But we are not professional marketeers or preachers or politicians. We are software developers. Mild profanity is part of our daily professional lives. Most peoples lives even. I'm sure whoever used public transport today on their way to work heard way worse.

As far as this specific claim of "offended me as a catholic" goes, it's ridiculous. Damnatio has been a Latin word in use centuries before Christ was even born. Any Christian claiming it's their's is mistaken. Just because they use it, does not make it special. I use the word "car" almost daily, yet it's not up to me to decide whether it's use by someone else is offensive or not. I mean I can decide to feel offended, but that should really be my problem.

And the target? Who is the target of "Damn it"? Is the "it" somehow offended by being targeted with a wish of judgement and condemnation? Did the "it" actually flag this? I guess not.

We should not delete anything that is a regular word, not targeting anybody, just because somebody came by and found the use of the word offensive to his religion. We are not the language police. This site's core is communication. Free communication. And we should be very careful why we put constraints on that.

5
  • ah.. No one can offend you without your consent .In this case same as "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" by Eleanor Roosevelt.
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 15:58
  • 7
    I'm not sure about that. If someone tries to offend me, it's still offensive in a way that they tried. Like attempted murder. It's still a crime even if it failed and the victim survived. But in this case, it wasn't even meant offensive. I would agree that "Damn you" is a completely different beast, a targeted attack, but just using a word without even targeting someone, feeling offended by that should really be reserved for a few really special words like the actual names of the different religion's gods.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 16:09
  • hmm..well in this case, OP does seem to go out of their way to take offense. If after all things said and done OP still takes offense, its the only response from me
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 16:14
  • 2
    @nvoigt careful. I made that same point and people still flagged me and got the comment deleted.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 16:37
  • There's nothing flagworthy about nvoigt's comment, so if a similar comment was deleted then it likely had other issues that were flagworthy.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 15:19
18

So, as a Christian (not a Catholic), I get why he doesn't like the term. I don't say and I don't let my kids say it. In this case, using the word is downplaying a serious issue in Christendom. It's like responding to someone saying "I have cancer and they've given me 6 months to live" by giggling uncontrollably.

That having been said, I don't generally run around flagging it (not that it appears a lot on SO in general). Why? First off, it's better than other words people use for colorful metaphors. "Well sh**" would have run afoul of at least two bot filters and probably been sustained as "unwelcoming" without any question (and getting people to stop is sometimes a chore). "Damnation" (or some form thereof) at least doesn't denigrate the level of discourse anywhere near that.

Second, unless you understand the underlying issues about why it's important to Christians, it won't make any difference to raise the issue. Running around demanding everyone stop using it like this won't stop it (and would likely get a few to do it just out of spite). There are far worse terms I'd like to stop before this one (like "Jesus Christ" as an expletive). I'd rather have a serious conversation about what it really means than to just soapbox the word. It's just too common to try and haul the meaning back in for everyone.

I would say that in cases like these, where it's not really helping things, just flag them (at worst) as "No longer needed" or ignore it. Let's not make this yet another "welcoming" fiasco.

1
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    Good on you for speaking up like this. In this day and age it's almost unfashionable and a risk to say you have any faith in God. Whether or not someone believes, there was a time (not so long ago) that ridiculing someone's faith was bad form. Now it's anything goes and people want to defend to right to keep it that way. It costs nothing to vet the words we use in a global community. What we do with the privacy of our close friends offline is our own business. Keep it clean on this site.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 22:06
3

It is often said that words that are offensive should be monitored when asked “which word should be offensive?” the answer always seems to be “we’ll use common sense”. Although this answer seems to not raise any red flags at first, it would be justified to ask, “who’s common sense will be applied?”.

In the age of the internet common sense is in the decline, rendering the meaning of the word almost useless, this is because “common sense” is just learned lessons from past experiences. This fact of “common sense” subjectivity is extremely problematic in the objective standards that peer review websites have used it for.

Often it is used as a way to mitigate responsibility from the company to the users, most peer review sites can create a type of “mob rule” climate were small groups of the loudest people on the site can push their own subjective thought as objective truths onto others. Those that seek to speak freely and not want anyone to be offended will get neither.

2

I would decline the flag, but delete the comment. The comment had no value and would be covered by a "no longer needed" or custom mod flag. Swift deletion of the comment in the first instance would have saved the angst and conflict that resulted from this particular exchange.

If an unwarranted unkind/rude comment flags have been raised, I will still often delete the comment after declining the flag, if they fall into the no longer needed category.

For example: If a comment is flagged as "unkind" and it's a link to a duplicate target, and the post is being voted on, I will leave the comment, as it's useful. If the question has long been closed, I will decline an "unkind" flag and delete the comment.

Comments are second class citizens and are subject to deletion. Any content people want to stay on the main site should be included in a question or answer. Sometimes this is difficult and the comments, particularly, under an answer are useful to critique the content of the post.

In response to the comments:

When people add expletives, tame or otherwise, I will delete it. Construct a sentence without an expletive. Doesn't make it offensive, but makes it unprofessional.

The site is supposed to be professional. Neither "Damn it or "crap" belong on the site. So that is good moderation to delete these types of comments, IMO, as the site is supposed to be a repository of good information, not a social network site of "< expletive > can you help me with this". Any details pertinent to a question should be in the question, not in the comments.

According to the Collins Dictionary:

An expletive is a rude word or expression such as 'Damn!' which you say when you are annoyed, excited, or in pain.

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  • 7
    Are you suggesting you would delete the comment because it was "no longer needed" or otherwise delete worthy? Would you have deleted it if it did not contain the expletive? Or would you have deleted it simply because it contained a mild expletive, even if it were an otherwise useful comment? Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 5:55
  • 7
    @chrisneilsen it's a useless comment in any form "Can anyone suggest a work-around then please?" The fact there's a question sitting there is explicit the OP needs help. whether it's a work around or whatever the solution. When people add expletives, tame or other wise. I will delete it. Construct a sentence without an expletive. Doesn't make it offensive, but makes it unprofessional. So on both accounts I would delete it. Most comments don't add value to a post.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 8:16
  • 2
    Also his comment should have been a new question, or an edit to the existing one (if it doesn't invalidate the answers already present). I agree with Yvette that there is no use in keeping this kind of comment.
    – Luuklag
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 9:47
  • 12
    The purpose of my comment was to draw a distinction between two quite separate issues - deleting a useless comment (FWIW I completely agree with that) and deleting an otherwise useful comment because it contains an expletive (while this comment may not be otherwise useful, that is not the point of @deceze 's Q). IMO deleting a comment because one person expressed an offence to it is not good moderation. Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 10:20
  • 3
    @chrisneilsen any comment that anyone makes that has expletives in it will be deleted if I see it (on main). It's not appropriate for the site. Do they deserve the "unkind" or "abusive" flag? Often not. they're too separate issues. The site is supposed to be professional. Neither "Damn it or "crap" belong on the site. So that is good moderation IMO, as the site is supposed to be a repository of good information, not a social network site of "<expletive> can you help me with this". Any details pertinent to a question should be in the question, not in the comments.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 10:26
  • 19
    @YvetteColomb any comment that anyone makes that has expletives in it will be deleted if I see it (on main) I get where you are coming from on that, but unless it is codified in the CoC or some other official rules from SE, or that is the general opinion of the community, then you are applying your own personal view to what should be a community decision. Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 11:54
  • 2
    @psubsee2003 Isn't it the rule?
    – user202729
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 13:06
  • 5
    @user202729 Yes, SE says that you shouldn't use expletives. Then the question is what constitutes an expletive. If it was straight forward, then there is no argument. But there is a large gray area. Words that are offensive to some not offensive to others. Many words that are not offensive in 1 culture that are offensive in another. And words that are not thought to be offensive at all, but have racial or stereotype origins. What is the line? It used to be considered "words that you wouldn't use in reasonable discourse". But then there is obviously disagreement on what is reasonable. Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 13:28
  • 5
    @psubsee2003 I don't understand the distinction. An expletive is any word you use as one. "Damn, I failed that" is substantially similar to "Salted potatoes, I failed that". Both of those are context dependant expletives, even if the words themselves aren't directly offensive. An expletive is a figure of speech used to add emphasis in a colloquial way, not really appropriate for a professional setting like SE aspires to be.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 13:53
  • 3
    Why would "damn" be a rude word when "a damning testimony" is totally normal English usage we hear in the news all the time? Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:36
  • @Cris You know, even the news does actually offend some people Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:40
  • 1
    @Don'tPanic: I know. Fox News offends liberals and CNN offends conservatives. :/ Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:46
  • 4
    @CrisLuengo the joke is: I get offended by what I don't agree with.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:54
  • 3
    This site isn't professional, silly. Come on now... professionally silly, maybe.
    – canon
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 17:38
  • 4
    @CrisLuengo in that context, "damning" is not an expletive, but rather an adjective - and a very reasonable one at that - as it tells us whether the testimony was for or against the act... Contrarily, as others have pointed out, this comment could have started with nearly any arbitrary exclamation (or even had the word removed) and still maintained its context and meaning.
    – Shadow
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 2:22
0

My opinion:

  1. It's definitely "no longer needed"
  2. The OP was certainly frustrated and venting, which is understandable.
  3. The expletive was not being directed at any person or specific thing, so can be considered "border-line" - no need to flag it as offensive
  4. While marking the comment as "no longer needed" (or with a mod flag if that would get faster attention) a comment back to the OP that in order to get any kind of useful response about a workaround, the question should be edited with a remark to the effect that, based on discussion, the question is being modified. I would expect, under such circumstances, after a cooling off period the OP would comply. (Or, if anyone is feeling generous and has a good grasp of the issue, that person could edit the question.)
  5. In a separate comment, note that the comment with the expletive has been flagged, that everyone understands s/he's upset and remind the OP politely that expletives can be controversial. (And I use that term deliberately, rather than offensive.)
  6. Once it's clear the OP has seen the comments, delete that mentioned in (5)
1
  • 1
    yep agree, there's a big distinction between using and expletive and actually insulting someone directly.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 13:24
-1

It feels like we are constantly walking on eggshells these days. Can't say much anymore without offending someone somewhere, and I think that's to our detriment. If people don't know what to say anymore without hurting someone else, they may just stop saying anything at all.

Personally, I've stopped using swear words/phrases that refer to deities in interactions with devout people. It hurts them and makes interactions difficult. But there has to be some middle ground: people do feel like swearing sometimes and as long as it doesn't refer to a deity and it's not too gross, I see no problem with that.

On the other hand, is there a need to swear in comments on Stack Overflow? Not really. But then I think the phrase "damn it" is so innocuous. I don't consider that swearing, more like saying "I'm throwing the towel in" and that's the way I read the sentence the OP refers to: "Ok, I'm throwing the towel in. Can anyone suggest a work-around then please?". Can't fault a person for what he meant, can you?

So what should moderators do then? In this case I would decline the flag initially, but if the flagger is persistent I may have done the same thing. Just change the wording, bit like "Here, take a lolly and now be silent".

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  • 3
    Use of "these days" and "anymore" with something that was traditionally offensive in English-speaking cultures (but only relatively recently became less taboo) is rather blinkered and looks weird. This isn't something new that somebody dreamed up 5 years ago in a Religious Words Studies degree. It's been a thing for centuries. Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 4:04
  • 2
    @NathanTuggy We're indeed talking about the present, a situation described by the OP that just occurred. We're indeed not talking about how things used to be, but what they are now. I don't feel like I have to respect the views people held hundreds of years ago presently.
    – TT.
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 4:32
  • 1
    And the fact that non-trivial subcultures have held those same views all along is, what, chopped liver? That's why I said "blinkered", as it's evident you just don't actually know about this. That's not blameworthy, but plowing ahead in confident ignorance is a problem. Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 4:56
  • 8
    @NathanTuggy Indeed. I should not be required to know each and every culture, subculture, movement, submovement, lifestyle, religion, viewpoint, and so on, to be able to function in society or be able to speak out in my own words here on SO. If you pile on that views held by people in past centuries, good grief, that's just making it impossible. I mean everyone is ignorant to an extent, not just me, that includes you Nathan.
    – TT.
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 5:38
  • 4
    Please stop misconstruing what I'm saying as requiring you to know about dead religious beliefs. My use of present perfect tense in the first comment was deliberate: there is not merely a past, but an ongoing, relevant, continuous belief. It's not just one small subculture, but a heterogenous set of them. And you don't need a PhD (or even a bachelor's) to know that Muslims and Jews have issues with pigs and conservative Christians are cautious about talking about eternal punishment. For the truly obscure things, like I already said, ignorance is not blameworthy, but obstinance is. Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 5:49
  • 1
    Basically, a crucial part of functioning in a diverse society is knowing how to handle yourself when diversity crops up unexpectedly and gets in your way, and being aware that diversity takes, well, many forms! If the first reaction is disrespect from disbelief that someone would actually care about that… yeah, that's a problem. Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 5:53
  • 7
    @Nathan Ok, I got that. But I don't want to know about anyone's interpretation of their religion (because it is always an interpretation) to know what I can and cannot say. You call it obstinance, well, that's the same obstinance that religious people display. From interactions with devout people, I know of no people that are more obstinant.
    – TT.
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 5:55
  • 7
    I think what's needed is more good faith on both parties. When I say something I think is innocuous, I'm going to respond a whole lot better if the offended party tells me calmly that they know I didn't mean to, but how I said something hurt them, versus a, "What you said offended me and you need to fix it." The latter is liable to just make me dig in, as there's no good faith from the other party. If you want people to be reasonable with you, it's usually a good idea to try to be reasonable first.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 13:59
  • 2
    @TT. Hmm. Tu quoque fallacy, sweeping anti-religious characterizations, hypocritically absolutist relativism… I can only imagine what kind of experiences you had that inspired this level of disdain. That's sad. Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 16:06
  • 3
    @NathanTuggy That's just taking it too far there. I think I know from what angle you're coming at this, I have experienced this sort of arguing before... You don't agree with my viewpoints, and you start crying anti-religious and hypocrisy. I'm not anti-religion, I'm against (extremist?) religious people that demand respect but never give any back and don't want to understand another angle but their own religious one. They never consider that they offend other people as well, they don't want to hear or understand that ever. No, they stick their obstinant guns and other people have to adapt.
    – TT.
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 16:19
  • 2
    @TT.: So, the fact that I disagree with you means it's illegitimate for me to point out fallacies and bigoted language? Wow. Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 16:38
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy As an anti-social geek who'd be perfectly happy with a book, I don't think I have any great insights into social interaction. I am, however, a rather conservative Christian trying to muddle along through life as best he can. I see many parallels here to my own sheltered upbringing (woo old school Mennonite!), and I think a lot of these social interactions have to come from having an open mind, and working with the people around you, instead of demanding they cater to you. My own personal motto is, "Live and let live".
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 16:41
  • 2
    @NathanTuggy I don't agree with calling what I say bigoted. Let's just keep it at that. There is no arguing with religious people, because they're always right, never wrong. They have their dogmatic views and other people have to adapt to that, not them to other views. I've seen teams go sour due to that. I have my own views on life, but I don't share them with others and I don't demand other people adapt to them. A bit like fbueckert's motto.
    – TT.
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 3:01
  • 2
    @TT.: OK. Why do you disagree with calling what you said (that religious people are always obstinate) bigoted? How about calling it a "sweeping anti-religious characterization", my original description? Can you describe how it isn't sweeping, isn't anti-religious, or isn't a characterization? I don't think there's anything inaccurate about any of those descriptions, but I could be wrong. There's been one attempt at a counter-argument, but it was pretty feeble, and was made irrelevant by the next comment doubling down on the original overgeneralization. Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 3:35
  • 4
    you know, people think I'm hard on deleting comments on main, but this is part of the reason. It saves so much emotional energy to get rid of the comment in question. I don't always mark the flag as helpful, e.g. an unkind flag on an innocuous, but otherwise unhelpful comment. I tend to be a believer that the no longer needed flag is an unsung hero.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 13:27
-5

I'm no theological expert, but to cite the Bible:

2 Thessalonians 2:12

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Further research reveals that the Bible is full of similar phrases! https://ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=60&threadid=7022

Ask the user to escalate the matter to the Pope and have the Bible banned for its offensive language. This book is clearly against the user's "catholic values".

5
  • 3
    that's using "damned" as a verb/adjective not an expletive. If you're going to post something like this, at least make it almost factual or accurate.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 13:20
  • 7
    It's not the word that is an expletive, it's its usage. "Sauntered whipped cream potato paste, I failed this function" is still an expletive. An expletive is when you use any word to add colloquial emphasis to a statement, like "damn, that was scary" is supposed to be a colloquial alternative to "that was very scary". Using "Damning" is an adjective, e.g. "a damning testimony" and "damned" is a normal verb. Not sure if it would be on topic in a SO comment in any constructible way, but citing context-free use of the word elsewhere is not a clean rebuttal for why it shouldn't be used on SO
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 13:22
  • @Magisch my grammar is suffering, help me out with my above comment.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 13:22
  • 2
    ... as an expletive. I think the line of reasoning is that the usage of expletives to add emphasis in general is unprofessional and noisy and thus not very well liked on SO, regardless of how tame the actual expletives are in comparison.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 13:25
  • 4
    I think the contention was that “damnation” as such is a sensitive subject to Christians, which, well, rather necessitates that the Bible mention it somewhere.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 22:02
-6

I'll go out on a possibly unpopular limb and suggest that the flag was correct. Coding is sometimes frustrating. Thinking is sometimes daunting. "Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back." But Stack Overflow is not the place to vent one's emotional reactions.

I regard this as in a class with phrases like "WTF is going on with this code?" and "I need help right now, please reply immediately!" and "Whoever at Apple Computer thought of this was an idiot!" I see phrases like this all the time. In questions and answers, I remove them. In comments, one has no choice but to flag. No one cares, or should be subjected to, how you feel about your code, your job, your life, Apple Computer, etc. Questions and answers and comments should be cool and dispassionate.

6
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    If it were flagged as "no longer needed", i'd agree. but it wasn't.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 18:16
  • 6
    @KevinB My comment "[Obi-wan Kenobi voice:] Uuuuuse the viewwww debuggerrrrr, Luuuuuke!" was flagged as offensive and that flag succeeded and I got a 24 hour ban. I rest my case.
    – matt
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 18:20
  • 8
    how is that comment relatable to the one in question? Your's could be interpreted as being condescending, the one in question can't.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 18:21
  • 1
    I totally agree with you. The only reason I don't use the "unkind" flag is it has backend repercussions that I think are excessive for the average expletive. It's different if a person is actively abusing someone (or being sarcastic as in your commented example) else as opposed to expressing frustration. It's human and understandable, but doesn't belong on the site. btw How did you get a 24 hour ban? Is there a part of this story you're not telling us? :D
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 22:11
  • 2
    @YvetteColomb Well, IIRC the moderator cited three or four other things I'd said in comments, but in my view they were all just as innocuous. That's the one I remember because it's the one that taught me "don't use humor".
    – matt
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 22:17
  • @matt ah yeh. Humour doesn't always translate well online. It's gotten me into trouble more than once. I agree with the essence of your answer, not the practicality. As unkind flags carry the same weight as rude flags. I have requested they change the back end of those flag actions. It would make flagging and moderation more fluid.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 22:43
-11

Here's a rule of thumb:

If you understand that some reasonable people would find it offensive, you should delete or edit it.

If you see no possible justifiable reason why any person would find it offensive, leave it alone.

Whether there are a lot of people who don't find it offensive is not really the most important part here. Unless you're happy treating people as statistics instead of as people.


Here's another one:

Imagine you worked for a very formal company with a conservative C*O - would you send or say this to them? If not, delete it.

This is intended to be a professional Q&A after all.


What you make of these in the context of that specific example is up to you.

17
  • 16
    I find CEOs in general offensive. Please delete your example as it references one.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:37
  • 7
    @l4mpi Fixed... Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:38
  • 14
    Great. Now please realize that your "rule of thumb" is a) subjective because the definition of "reasonable" varies widely, and b) subject to abuse as just demonstrated...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:39
  • 1
    @l4mpi It's not meant to be objective. People already use their own subjective opinions to judge how offensive something is - this is just intended to move that away from "I don't think this is offensive" to "I suppose I can see why someone might find this offensive". I don't imagine there are any objective rules for acceptable language that's in any way comprehensive and accurate. Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:44
  • 12
    I can see where you're coming from but disagree with your conclusions. Just because I can imagine that e.g. some conservative christian might be offended by the word "god" being used in any non-religious context doesn't mean that we should all censor ourselves because of their sensibilities (e.g. not using the phrase "god object"). I think it's the other way around - if a word or phrase is acceptable to use in everyday conversation for most people, it should be allowed on SO. Of course this only applies to contexts where it is clear that it's not used to deliberately troll or insult.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 14:56
  • @l4mpi The key words are "justifiable" and "reasonable". It doesn't sound like you think it's reasonable for people to be offended by a phrase like "god object", or possibly to be offended by anything that's acceptable to use in everyday conversation for most people, which is not really what I had in mind with this answer, but if that's what you feel, this answer isn't intended to try to change your mind. Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 15:11
  • 4
    but what I consider reasonable might differ wildly from other people. I personally wouldn't judge any argument from religion as being reasonable, but I'm sure there's a lot of people who would disagree. So I don't see how a subjective rule would help here. IMO the best we can do for subjective cases such as these is default to being lenient and possibly attempt to agree on objective rules; e.g. choose an ESRB rating level to conform to.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 15:49
  • 2
    @l4mpi We're already judging them subjectively. How would this be any worse than what's currently happening (in terms of subjectivity)? Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 15:59
  • 9
    This is worse because it shifts from community subjectivity to personal subjectivity. You say if someone could, "reasonably" find it offensive, then it should go, even if most people wouldn't. Your guidelines are so vague and subjective so as to be effectively useless. Personally, tiptoeing around everyone's sensibilities is going to be a lost cause; you'll never not offend someone.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 16:12
  • 1
    Sure, moderators currently use their own subjectivity, but it's filtered through the lens of community acceptability, and are still accountable for their actions. With only a single person flagging that comment, and the strong support for not deleting it, you can see that the community thought it was fine the way it was. If instead we apply your criteria, we should be deleting anything that a, "reasonable" person would find offensive, which is too vague to be actionable.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 16:57
  • 3
    I'm not saying, "screw everyone else". I'm pointing out that if you try to appease everyone, you're not going to say anything, because someone, somewhere, won't like what you say. At some point, there needs to be good faith on both parties, both the poster and the reader. And that good faith comes from trusting the community as a whole, not dictating that your personal standards trump the community.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 17:00
  • 1
    @fbueckert Anyone who's been in the world for a few years with even a tiny amount of empathy and reflection should be able to come up with a pretty accurate guess as to whether a reasonable person would find something offensive. Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 17:07
  • 4
    I think you're setting that expectation far too high, especially with all the various viewpoints the world over. For example, I often get into arguments over what a living wage should be. Proponents for it often see disagreement with it as offensive, and will lash out because of it. Is that, "reasonable"? They seem to think so. I don't, but then, I don't think we need something like a living wage. And that's just an off the cuff example. I'm sure there's lots more.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 17:11
  • 2
    I mean, we could apply this entire discussion to this problem. At some point, you need to just trust the community.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 17:12
  • 2
    @Dukeling it might not make it worse, but how does it make it any better? And if it doesn't, why bother?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Oct 17, 2018 at 7:29
-35

Moderators moderate people, not words. The word itself isn't the problem, how it's used is.

24
  • 12
    Since people only express themselves in words here… you may have to expand on that distinction a bit.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:45
  • 10
    You run into significant problems with this train of thought. Consider the difference between "snicker" and "snigger". Both mean the same thing. If you're an African-American (like I am), one means something far more different than the other, even though both are acceptable British English spellings of the same thing.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:47
  • 2
    Yes, but I'm American and America in 2018 is a very racially sensitive place. I've got more of a head on my shoulders in this scenario, but that doesn't mean you should just ignore that.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:52
  • 2
    @Makoto nor you should ignore my context, which may be completely opposite to yours. Otherwise, are you the only one allowed to feel offended?
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 17:59
  • 2
    @Makoto I don’t want to ignore your context, but neither should your context be the only one that’s applicable, or should it? If something should be moderated if it can be offensive in any context… that is severely limiting in what you can safely express anywhere…
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 18:13
  • 5
    @deceze: Yes, this is largely my point. Everyone's going to have a reason to be offended by something. The only thing that could be done is to have a conversation about it. From that could one establish moderation patterns to go off of in the event this happens again.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 18:34
  • 4
    @Braiam - You're wrong. You cannot use those words here, as they cause problems, and it is supposed to closer to a work environment than a bar. It is so clear that is the case at Stack Overflow, that as a regular user I am going to single handedly delete your comment containing those words as an example of how there are built in features to remove such content.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 19:01
  • 2
    @TravisJ you surely work in a very restrictive environment. Try working driving, moving stuff, or something less "white collar"-y. People use words to express themselves. Words only can hurt you if you decide they hurt you.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 19:29
  • 2
    @deceze - It was neither, although to be honest I had a higher expectation of your behavior. Hopefully you have better judgement than is displayed here when moderating, although based on this question I am now beginning to wonder.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 20:32
  • 2
    @Braiam - Nope, no restrictions here. I am just more considerate of all the people who use this site that may be in that type of situation. Not everyone can sit back and kibitz or troll in comments like you seem to be accustomed to do, or deceze as shown. It isn't a personal insult to read these words, it is just not the environment that we are creating here. Your behavior and outlook seem to be better fit to something like reddit where there are less professionals.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 20:36
  • 2
    @TravisJ you can call others troll and still be professional? You are being disrespectful of a fellow community member by accusing them of a behavior they did to illustrate their point, yet you get into the moral horse claiming superiority over others because you didn't use a certain word? That's the fucking problem right there! You are being disrespectful but only the comments with it-who-must-not-be-used shall be moderated. That shows how irrational and absurd that POV is. If it's like that, I say that others have protozoan intelligence and not be recipient of flags just for not using fword.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 22:39
  • 4
    @Braiam - "Accusing" implies that there is some claim here, whereas it is fairly clear that cussing at others isn't exactly high level discourse. It wasn't an accusation, it was a description. Perhaps you should really reflect on the way you interact with people here. When you post an answer on this topic, they tend to be clearly, and sometimes heavily downvoted, yet you seem to feel empowered when posting comments which cannot be downvoted. You can cuss at me, and say that I am on some sort of moral high ground, but that just shows a lack of actual depth to your reasoning here.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 15, 2018 at 22:51
  • 4
    @TravisJ fwiw I'm totally on board with you on this. Sometimes it feels like you're arguing such an obvious point against that the unacceptable should ok and you're unreasonable for not seeing that. That kind of language in many work places will see people in trouble. It's also not acceptable on the site.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 2:30
  • 2
    I am very surprised by the downvotes on this one. I thought it was common knowledge that (diamond) moderators moderate users for bad behavior, and that different use of words carries different implications for the user. The only reason I can think of for downvoting this would be that it's tangential to this specific discussion at best.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 5:07
  • 2
    @BoltClock: It wouldn't surprise me if people did that. I picked up on that too. The fact that he apologized indicates that he knew what he had intended to state wasn't received well in a different culture.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 5:20

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